[McLovin]

Ah, good catch! Let's just hope he doesn't sink in a Goodkind reference somewhere...that may cause me to burn my copies...

[Brys]

longhorn said:

Ah, good catch! Let's just hope he doesn't sink in a Goodkind reference somewhere...that may cause me to burn my copies...

He does have a reason to respect Robert Jordan, even if it isn't for the quality of his writing. Jordan endorsed the series pretty heavily and a huge number of WoT fans decided to pick up A Game of Thrones, which meant that Martin was able to do much better. The only Goodkind reference I wouldn't mind seeing is if it makes fun of him - ie placing him as a very arrogant, incompetent character. But I think we can leave Goodkind bashing to Bakker amongst epic fantasy authors (

Quote

The second I'd call Terry, and I'd forbid him from making things up about philosophers he's never read, and I'd try not to look at him, for fear he might be masturbating

)

[caladanbrood]

I think we all agree they're both great series:D

[QuickTidal]

Dephere said:

I am new here and spotted the George R.R. Martin thread, expecting to spot praises that tend to run through my mind of the prodigious author, but much to my chagrin Martin seems to be somewhat misliked here.

He is by far my favorite author, his characters by far surpassing even Erikson's. His world may not be as in depth, but it seems more defined, or real if you will. As I am reading Erikson I will stumble across some 'new' aspect, which in some cases, not all, seems contirved...much like an obscure afterthought.

Someone said it earlier, Erikson bashes you over the head with his world, while Martin just lets it be.

But, I am thoroughly infatuated with the Erikson series. They seemed to have quenched my urge for magic in a way that Martin's books could not.

As to who is the best writer...my opinion is that Martin is a much better writer, but Erikson is also a very talented author. Maybe this is one of those mysteries in life that is never answered. (Well, at least not an answer that everyone could agree upon).

I think the largest qualm anyone had in this section was how Martin complained about Bush's election, which left me shocked. Are today's writers not allowed to have opinions. I think it is ridiculous to hold someone's opinions against there obvious talents. Whoever would do this is obviously narrow minded.

Well, that's what all I have to say

on the subject and I hope I didn't offend anyone.

Actually dude, the bigger qualms were of the nature that it took him 5 years to get it out, and that AFFC is alot of filler, ect...read the threads and maybe you'll have a better understanding.

[Brahm_K]

Ugh... A Goodkind reference. Eww. I can't imagine why anyone would do it, unless to make fun of him and his poor excuse for writing.

[Werthead]

I think people were a bit miffed that GRRM put his political meanderings in the AFFC Update section on his webpage (although it did explain about 3 days of the delay). He's recently redone his website so there's a dedicated section and blog where he can put stuff like that.

The 5-year-wait seems to have really narked some people off as well. Why, I'm not sure. Martin is my favourite author but during the 5-year-wait I went off and read other authors and found other series to read (including Erikson). AFFC was a very good book, but I agree that it lacked explosions and mass death. Sometimes things have to be done more subtly.

[Brys]

Dephere said:

I already read the threads thank you, and you're right. I guess what I meant to say was that the issue that got through to me was the whole Bush thing. That people were using Martin's political stance to discredit his writing seems absurd.

Anyway, Martin has completely plausible and probabible excuses for not releasing his book. Most people can sympathize with him, especially other writers.

I didn't understand that either - writers should be judged on what they write, not on who they are or what they believe (unless it's the case that their novels are a thinly disguised political manifesto).

I agree that Martin has some of the best characters in fantasy, easily better than Erikson's IMO - but I'd say that the differences in worldbuilding is mainly because Martin's created one in which we're very familiar with - medieval Britain - and Erikson's created an unfamiliar one which has to be shown. I have a slight preference for the latter, but I think that Martin's worldbuilding works very well for the type of series he's writing. On the issue of worldbuilding, I think that's one aspect that really improved in A Feast for Crows, which is one of the reasons I wasn't disappointed with it.

[Werthead]

Brys said:

I didn't understand that either - writers should be judged on what they write, not on who they are or what they believe (unless it's the case that their novels are a thinly disguised political manifesto).

cough cough, Goodkind, cough cough. Agree with you there.

Brys said:

I agree that Martin has some of the best characters in fantasy, easily better than Erikson's IMO - but I'd say that the differences in worldbuilding is mainly because Martin's created one in which we're very familiar with - medieval Britain - and Erikson's created an unfamiliar one which has to be shown. I have a slight preference for the latter, but I think that Martin's worldbuilding works very well for the type of series he's writing. On the issue of worldbuilding, I think that's one aspect that really improved in A Feast for Crows, which is one of the reasons I wasn't disappointed with it.

I'd agree with virtually all of this. Martin's work is more interesting to me because the much lower level of magic means that the suspension of disbelief is not required to be as high as when you read MBF. It also means moments when out-and-out magic is used (such as when Melisandre births the shadows that kill Courtney Penrose under the walls of Storm's End) are also much more startling and powerful. Erikson's writing is equally powerful in many areas (Chain of Dogs and the fall of Capustan), but the level of magic does require a pretty heavy suspension of disbelief in places. Since Erikson's story is so good, this is easy to achieve.

[garden_rake]

sorry if this has been discussed before people (theres too many pages ) but one things been bothering me since book 3 - where's rickon? he went off with whats her name but since then we havnt heard a peep. He's still second in line to winterfell after bran isnt he?

or could he be the old character he's planning to return.....

[McLovin]

Hmmm, yeah, where is Rickon? Isn't he travelling with Bran et al? I thought they escaped Winterfell together. Gah, too many characters - time to re-read!

[Arkmam]

Rickon is not the old PoV returning, as he was never a PoV character.

The old PoV returning is probably Theon Greyjoy. The only three people that lost their PoVs are Eddard Stark, Catelyn Stark and Theon Greyjoy, and I don't see Ned or Cat comming back as PoVs. Cat is of course a possibilty, but I doubt it.

A third Dunk and Egg story sounds sweet

[garden_rake]

so no ideas on whether rickon will return later? it just seems too big a gap to leave, otherwise why not just kill him off?

@ longhorn: no he went off with the wildling girl who was caught attacking rob and bran (cant for the life of me remember her name). When bran went off with hodor and the two frogs, rickon went with her to keep them seperate and safe

[Cause]

be new viewpoint character does he mean someone we have never seen before, or just a new viewpoint. If the latter that could be the wilder girl with rickon or rickon. though he seems to young

[McLovin]

garden_rake said:

@ longhorn: no he went off with the wildling girl who was caught attacking rob and bran (cant for the life of me remember her name). When bran went off with hodor and the two frogs, rickon went with her to keep them seperate and safe

Ah yes, it's dimly coming back to me. Cheers

And I wonder if Theon will return - GRRM left some room there for interpretation as to whether he actually survived, but at this point I can't imagine how he would really affect the story even if he did. Maybe he hooks up with the wildling girl and thus captures Rickon? That could be interesting...

[Blind]

Well, Theon could still play a part in the Greyjoy succession plot, since he is one of the potential heirs. However, he seems to be far away from all this, and I don't see Asha coming to fetch him, given how she considered him.

I think he will return, because in this series no one important can die offscreen. He has to serve a purpose of some kind.

[Werthead]

Asha needs Theon because she realised in AFFC that she can't rule the ironborn herself and her uncle Victarion, for all the affection they share, will not let himself be ruled by a woman. Theon, on the other hand, is Balon's son and in taking Winterfell and burning it (we know he didn't, but the Boltons are spreading the rumour that Theon razed Winterfell) he achieved a mighty victory for the ironborn, all that it was for naught in the end. Thus Theon may win the respect of the ironborn for a claim to the throne if Euron dies or is deposed and Asha can be the power behind the throne. She just needs to spring him from the Dreadfort first.

Theon is alive. GRRM has flat-out said that "Theon is still alive and wishing he wasn't." He has also said that Cat will not return as a POV character and that Ned is totally deader than a doornail. Thus Theon is the only POV character that can return.

Rickon was taken by Osha into the wilderness with two options about where to go: to the Neck to take shelter with Howland Reed, or to White Harbour to seek the protection of Wyman Manderly. Given that Manderly and White Harbour are in ADWD, we should find out if they went there in that book. My guess is that Osha and Rickon went to Howland Reed instead, who was a much closer and more reliable ally of the Starks.

The new POV character is most likely to be Quentyn Martell (since his planned one-off POV chapter was missing from AFFC because he's gone east). However, other possibilities are Archmaester Marwyn (unlikely unless it's right at the end of the book), Jeyne Pool (aka the fake Arya Stark at the Dreadfort), Barristan Selmy (possible but unlikely) or one of the Golden Company, who apparently have a major role in ADWD.