[Roland]

Look, first off he's NOT a fantasy writer He didn't even intend to put the dragons and the Others in the first place but his publisher made him.

Anyway, even if that's his purpose, there are two things:

1) It's not realistic for a society, which has existed for hundreds and even thousands of years (if I'm not wrong), even if it is still on medieval level of technology, to be the same as the real medieval one. They had far more time to evolve in the psychological/phylosophical/emotional departments and this should show.

2) EVEN if that was not the case (I seem to have forgotten how long the culture of Vesteros existed) and it supposedly portrays the medieval culture, I would ask this very simple question - WHY would I want to read FANTASY if it's going to be the same as medieval reality? If it's gonna be fantasy, let it be real fantasy. And that by no means states it should all be bloodless and without even the mentioning of sex or brutality like Eddings or Jordan, but... I don't know, I think suchi things are a bit... cheap way of making your characters look "real". Erikson's way of giving them depth (both emotional and psychological) is for me way more soffisticated and I respect him for that.

[Matrim]

The point is that Martin is not that original as you some people claim. I have read historical fiction novels very similar in plot development and feeling to ASOIAF, with the noble characters dying because of being too good and naive, with all the violence, squalor and stuff. It may be revolutionary for the fantasy genre but it's hardly an original concept per se.
The sex-scenes don't really bother me but I don't think the claim that they add to the depth of characters is valid every time - do we actually need to know exactly what technicues a given character uses in bed in order to know his personality better? But frankly I could hardly care less whether he shows the sex or not so I will say no more.
As for the "great" Martin characters - they leave me cold, I don't care what happens to most of them with one or two exceptions. Jordan's characters are paper-thin and dumb but I care what will happen with a lot more of them. Don't ask me to explain why is that.

[Brys]

Roland - I take it you don't like historical fantasy?

I don't see why magic has to be very important in fantasy, and I think Martin's ASOIAF is slowly becoming more fantastical as it develops and the others and the dragons become more important. It could have been written as a historical fiction, but Martin chose to write it as a fantasy. It gives him a lot more freedom like this - I doubt it was purely the publishers, because I guess it would be a lot easier to get a historical novel published than a fantasy novel because there is not nearly the same degree of competition.


Matrim - I agree, Martin isn't one of the most original authors in the genre, but I wouldn't say he's overly derivative either. He took aspects that were commonplace in the rest of fantasy (and lots of other fiction) and put them into an epic fantasy setting, basically.

[caladanbrood]

Originality is not crucial for good writing. Yes, it helps a lot, but it aint vital.

I do like to see fantasy without as much magic as your usual, and I think Martin pulls it off well by, basically totally ignoring the subject except in Dany's PoV.

I'm not a huge fan of Medieval fantasy normally, and the whole knights in shining armour genre puts me off somewhat, but I do think Martin makes a very good attempt at it:) A bit too much politics and too little action to be one of my personal faves, but its up there near the top...

[Ijon Tichy]

I don't like Martin and ASOIF that much, but I can't agree with those blaming him for taking too much time to write the next installment. He should be allowed to write at his own pace until he's satisfied with the end result. Much better than to wait 5 years than to get a rushed book like Jordan's Crossroads of Twilights and the last two installments in the Dark Tower series.

As for the sex scenes, they never bothered me, but I found a lot of them pointless and having no relation to plot or character development.

[First Seguleh]

As far as magic/fantasy goes, I thought the whole point was that it is becoming of greater importance as the series continues, the merely material conflict of the first few books giving way to the deeper conflict between ice and fire. After all, it is called a Song of Ice and Fire (I confess, I found this very puzzling when I'd only read the first book ), which suggests he must have had something of the sort planned from the beginning.

[Roland]

What I meant by the thousands of years was not the actual evolution, but the society one. A society that has existed three or four times as much as ours just HAS to have invented higher filosophy and ethics than "If it moves, slash it. If it doesn't move, slash it - it might move later". This is too primitive and primal and I don't like authors who overuse it. As I said before, sex and brutality are the most simple and easy way to win fans.


As for the fantasy parts of ASOIF, they are the worst for me. John's subplot is tedious and painfully boring, full of cliches and very slow read for me. The dragon-part with Daeneris is again fully pointless (up till now of course, I don't know how both will turn out) and besides, she, like basically every female character in the series, is an utter and vile bitch...

So if we talk fantasy, I'd say Martin i bad at writing it. When it comes to alternative history, then it's cool and despite what I say in this topic, I DO very much like his books. I've mostly forgotten the details and almost all the names (except the main ones) since it's been too long time since I read them and that's the reason for my feelings about the series to get black and white. I'm sure the fire will be renewed when I read the foruth but all my points here still stand

[Lather]

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the way he's delaying his book for five years. You simply DON'T do such things if you respect your fans,

roland...i may be out of line here as i haven't even read any Martin (yet) but i just have to come to the defense of all writers and say that writing for a living, especially fiction writing, is some of the hardest work known to humanity!!! it's not an easy thing to do and there's absolutely no shame in taking one's time with it, or not being able to do it when you're not able to do it! give the man a break. sometimes it's like giving birth to every single sentence! it's hard. those who find it easy are luckyluckylucky and, for the most part, rare.
so you, as a reader, have to wait a bit...maybe you get frustrated. believe me, it's NOTHING compared to the frustration of not being able to see where your story is going or having to tie up loose plot ends or making sure multiple storylines are synchronous, etc. perhaps you're a writer yourself and have less patience because it comes easier for you. still, cut the man some slack. wait it out and have some compassion. usually, waiting on a good writer is worth it.


and secondly, sophisticated is spelled with a ph not 2 f's

[Roland]

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roland...i may be out of line here as i haven't even read any Martin (yet) but i just have to come to the defense of all writers and say that writing for a living, especially fiction writing, is some of the hardest work known to humanity!!! it's not an easy thing to do and there's absolutely no shame in taking one's time with it, or not being able to do it when you're not able to do it! give the man a break. sometimes it's like giving birth to every single sentence! it's hard. those who find it easy are luckyluckylucky and, for the most part, rare.
so you, as a reader, have to wait a bit...maybe you get frustrated. believe me, it's NOTHING compared to the frustration of not being able to see where your story is going or having to tie up loose plot ends or making sure multiple storylines are synchronous, etc. perhaps you're a writer yourself and have less patience because it comes easier for you. still, cut the man some slack. wait it out and have some compassion. usually, waiting on a good writer is worth it.

I know it sounds cold but in today's environment five years for the middle part of a fantasy series is not acceptable. Some people gave examples with other series which I don't know. I could give one myself - Ender's Saga by Orsen Scott Card. Yet it matters when the first of those books were published. In that time the situation was totally different, there was far less competition and the whole live moved a bit slower (however simple I made it sound, I hope you get the point). Besides there is a HUGE difference betwen genres AND betwen a book, followed years later by sequels and a series.
This is fantasy. In fantasy, you don't have the luxory of writing that slow. New authors emerge every month and many of them appeal to the masses (Paolini anyone?).People just... forget you. And since in this world the client is god, the conclusion is simple - if you cannot write with the neccesary speed, then you just ain't good enough.

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"High point for the month was reading A Feast for Crows by George R. R. Martin. Yes, it is only half the book originally promised. Yes, it's been five years since volume three, Yes, it only advances story a bit, but it's prime. Martin writes the best and tensest high fantasy today. Wow."

Oh, I get so turned-on by the "it only advances story a bit but it rox" part They were saying the same about Jordan at book six. I wonder when will Martin anounce his books are going to be eight instead :/

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and secondly, sophisticated is spelled with a ph not 2 f's

Now you give ME some credit I've never practised my written english and I'm sure it's still better than your bulgarian


P.S. And no, I'm not a writer, although I do write short stories on occasion. I'm a violinist

[lfex]

I don't see that five years gap after the last novel has commercially hurt GRRM in any way. On the contrary, waiting has raised up expectations, and he seems to be now commercially bigger than five years ago, if anything.

[Roland]

Hmm, I know a lot of people who just gave up on waiting and lost interest. But may be in general it's different, I don't know...

Still, I never trust official reviewers so I don't care if they say it lives up to the hype. There still actually ARE people who say Jordan's last books are good. When I see the Amazon reviews, well, that's a different thing.

[polishgenius]

You know, bluesman makes a good point. Would you rather wait a long time between Martin books, or get another Eddings/Feist?

[Brys]

Roland - I always have considered alternate history to be fantasy - Martin just has slightly more magic than the average historical fantasy/alternate history, which is probably why he's considered epic fantasy.

Roland, I'd agree that if a new author writing a new series took 5 years between books, it could be damaging to him. However, Martin has been writing for 30 years or so, has a strong fanbase and is established within the genre. It's the people like Paolini who have to write fast to keep their fans, because he's what I would describe as an entry-level writer - his writing introduces people to the genre and to reading, but it doesn't keep them there. Martin's a higher level writer, and money isn't his sole concern - he also cares about quality, and if we have to wait 5 years for that, I can accept it. There are huge numbers of other books we can read in the meantime anyway.

[Roland]

Heh, we'll talk again after 25 years while we're waiting for the ninth book of ASOIF