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Is Roland satisfied with Chaos being a warren...or does the child need more proof? I only say this cause I found it:p
the warrens of K'rul
#41
Folken 
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Posted 24 September 2005 - 10:09 PM
<div align='center'>You must always strive to be the best, but you must never believe that you are - Juan Manuel Fangio</div>
#43
Folken
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Posted 24 September 2005 - 10:25 PM
K too lazy to type it out, go read MoI pg 1139 MMPB:D It's the first line. Clearly calling Chaos a Warren
<div align='center'>You must always strive to be the best, but you must never believe that you are - Juan Manuel Fangio</div>
#44
Roland
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Posted 24 September 2005 - 10:50 PM
Sorry, I know it's against the script, but I remain unconvinced. SE calls Chaos "a warren" even in GotM but even in this passage it is said this is something different than other warrens - "I used what I could find". I still think it is something different and larger than warrens, called like them just for lack of other names.
#45 Guest_The Silent One_*
Posted 05 October 2005 - 07:17 PM
if it started with darkness then came light to create chaos would that make chaos shadow
#46 Guest_recked_it_*
Posted 06 October 2005 - 03:10 PM
I still don't buy it. I think it more logical that Chaos was first. In the beginning there was just a miasma of uncontrolled energy (chaos). Then K'rul somehow reared his little head and formed a void around himself in this energy (starvald demelain). He then started to work branches through the energy of chaos and somehow refined and controlled it, forming warrens.
I kind of liken it to our own big bang theory. The Big bang is like the warrens, and chaos is whatever the universe and space is expanding into.
I tend to agree with roland. The warren of chaos to me, is taken as anything venturing out of the controlled and refined energy of the warrens. so kind of like passing through the threshhold of controlled energy at the edge of a warren and into chaos (uncontrolled energy).
I think this agress with erikson's theme of the eternal struggle between opposites; between light and dark, and ultimately chaos and control. This also makes it easier to view the CG's assault on the warrens in MoI. The warrens is control amongst chaos. and the warrens must fight to persist. they need to hold themselves together against the miasma of chaos basically. perhaps the CG was helping that control waiver and the uncontrolled energy of chaos to penetrate the warrens or just start to loose control of the energy that they contain.
This probably seems highly confused to everyone, but thats how i see it.
I kind of liken it to our own big bang theory. The Big bang is like the warrens, and chaos is whatever the universe and space is expanding into.
I tend to agree with roland. The warren of chaos to me, is taken as anything venturing out of the controlled and refined energy of the warrens. so kind of like passing through the threshhold of controlled energy at the edge of a warren and into chaos (uncontrolled energy).
I think this agress with erikson's theme of the eternal struggle between opposites; between light and dark, and ultimately chaos and control. This also makes it easier to view the CG's assault on the warrens in MoI. The warrens is control amongst chaos. and the warrens must fight to persist. they need to hold themselves together against the miasma of chaos basically. perhaps the CG was helping that control waiver and the uncontrolled energy of chaos to penetrate the warrens or just start to loose control of the energy that they contain.
This probably seems highly confused to everyone, but thats how i see it.
#47
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Posted 06 October 2005 - 03:33 PM
Darkness, chaos.. then light... *sigh*
Roland asked earlier about chaos as a realm..
K'rul to Rake "I anticipated returning to the Realms of Chaos with a Jaghut Tyrant for company"
here's another question..."witnessed the last flight of the dragons into Starvald Demelain... " - so why did they leave?
but if y'all don't want the books to read the way they do, then you could always either a) re-write to suit yourselves, or
ask SE to re-write them...
Roland asked earlier about chaos as a realm..
K'rul to Rake "I anticipated returning to the Realms of Chaos with a Jaghut Tyrant for company"
here's another question..."witnessed the last flight of the dragons into Starvald Demelain... " - so why did they leave?
but if y'all don't want the books to read the way they do, then you could always either a) re-write to suit yourselves, or
ask SE to re-write them...
#50 Guest_starhunter_*
Posted 17 October 2005 - 08:10 PM
I am new to the forums but I am not new to the books and I am certain that recked_it has it the closest. I am really confused by this seemingly mystical awe some of you members have towards Hetan (no offense intended to you Hetan, I am just disappointed at some of the following going on).
As to the issue of togg using an ancient magic. I got the definite impression that togg's warren, purpose, and power was all related to the animal world. Togg's power is older because animals came before the sentient beings like the tiste, elder gods, or humans. Following from this I believe that togg either used raw chaos, or used a "warren" created out of his own will that was very far from the warrens later created by K'rul. This would explain why toggs power faded (because of the rise of the sentient being warrens and power) and why togg is older then even the elder gods. I am not 100% sure but I think I remember it being said somewhere in MoI that togg's realm was a realm of animals.
I love this series but to claim that it is without contradiction is rediculous. Hetan keeps saying Darkness, Chaos, Light over and over again, but I don't think repeating a single statement is enough to combat the reality of what is going on with the structure of the warrens and magic. Just take recked_it's theory and apply it to everything that happens in the book at it will work almost always. I believe its a logical conclusion drawn from the actual evidence of actions in the book rather then pieced together historical statements. Someone earlier in this thread said that what we have been told is really only theories on the beginning and may not reflect what really happened. The reason recked_it's theory does not match up with your quote Hetan is that recked_its theory is a theory based on reality rather then on statements.
As to the issue of togg using an ancient magic. I got the definite impression that togg's warren, purpose, and power was all related to the animal world. Togg's power is older because animals came before the sentient beings like the tiste, elder gods, or humans. Following from this I believe that togg either used raw chaos, or used a "warren" created out of his own will that was very far from the warrens later created by K'rul. This would explain why toggs power faded (because of the rise of the sentient being warrens and power) and why togg is older then even the elder gods. I am not 100% sure but I think I remember it being said somewhere in MoI that togg's realm was a realm of animals.
I love this series but to claim that it is without contradiction is rediculous. Hetan keeps saying Darkness, Chaos, Light over and over again, but I don't think repeating a single statement is enough to combat the reality of what is going on with the structure of the warrens and magic. Just take recked_it's theory and apply it to everything that happens in the book at it will work almost always. I believe its a logical conclusion drawn from the actual evidence of actions in the book rather then pieced together historical statements. Someone earlier in this thread said that what we have been told is really only theories on the beginning and may not reflect what really happened. The reason recked_it's theory does not match up with your quote Hetan is that recked_its theory is a theory based on reality rather then on statements.
#52 Guest_starhunter_*
Posted 17 October 2005 - 08:53 PM
And it contradicts other statements made by K'rul. So do you follow the one that is an exception, or the ones that follow logically?
#54 Guest_starhunter_*
Posted 17 October 2005 - 09:47 PM
His statements on the nature of the warrens. i.e. the warrens being him, and he talks about chaos as the space outside of the origanization of the warrens.
#56
Folken
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Posted 18 October 2005 - 12:15 AM
Where does K'Rul say taht Chaos is a space outside of the organization of warrens?
<div align='center'>You must always strive to be the best, but you must never believe that you are - Juan Manuel Fangio</div>
#57 Guest_Cripple God_*
Posted 18 October 2005 - 02:58 AM
Let see if this right the warrens are worlds onto themselves yet they contained within Krul body? If that the case wouldn't he be effected by cripple god poison?
#58
Folken
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Posted 18 October 2005 - 03:49 AM
yeah, all of that is clearly explained in Memories of Ice. If you remember, when the Trygalle Guild comes out of the warren there is a lot of blood that pours out of the warren as well and one of the character's remark that this is the blood of an Anciet God = K'Rul.
2nd the conversation between K'Rul and Envy he tells her that his blood is poisoned withing the Pannion Domin. So yes K'Rul is the one that is most affected by this poisoning.
2nd the conversation between K'Rul and Envy he tells her that his blood is poisoned withing the Pannion Domin. So yes K'Rul is the one that is most affected by this poisoning.
<div align='center'>You must always strive to be the best, but you must never believe that you are - Juan Manuel Fangio</div>
#59 Guest_Cripple God_*
Posted 18 October 2005 - 03:53 AM
If that the case K'rul dieing like burn is?
How will that effected warrens if he kick the bucket?
How will that effected warrens if he kick the bucket?
