Help
I'm now rereading GotM and it states very clearly there that there is NO such thing as warren of Chaos. What is called "the warrens of Chaos" is the space betwen warrens and in a way it's connected to the void of space betwen worlds. And WHERE does it say Chaos is a realm?
the warrens of K'rul
#22 Guest_Wraith_*
Posted 21 September 2005 - 11:10 AM
The main issue I am confused on is this:
Did K'rul have to exist before the warrens were created?
Or could there have been warrens before K'rul?
In MoI, when the 3 gods go to confront Kallor, Togg is following them and refers to them as being young compared to him, so he was an ascendent before K'rul existed, so at that time would he have had a warren to use.
On a side note, is Toggs (the wolf god) warren Omtose phelack (the jaghut one), he is the lord of winter, and in one of toc's rambling thoughts when he is the seer's prisoner he says (about the Jaghuts I presume) that they never understood true winter, the shorter days etc.
And that he (I presume Togg) would have denied you access if he had not been searching for Fanderay (or something like this I don't have the book with me).
So does this mean his warren was omtose phelack and if so could he still stop jaghut's from using it or is it now to late?
Did K'rul have to exist before the warrens were created?
Or could there have been warrens before K'rul?
In MoI, when the 3 gods go to confront Kallor, Togg is following them and refers to them as being young compared to him, so he was an ascendent before K'rul existed, so at that time would he have had a warren to use.
On a side note, is Toggs (the wolf god) warren Omtose phelack (the jaghut one), he is the lord of winter, and in one of toc's rambling thoughts when he is the seer's prisoner he says (about the Jaghuts I presume) that they never understood true winter, the shorter days etc.
And that he (I presume Togg) would have denied you access if he had not been searching for Fanderay (or something like this I don't have the book with me).
So does this mean his warren was omtose phelack and if so could he still stop jaghut's from using it or is it now to late?
#23
Roland 
- High Fist
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 444
- Joined: 16-September 05
Posted 21 September 2005 - 11:13 AM
WHat I gather is power existed before K'rul, but he was the one to give it shape creating the warrens. Beside, it's never really said weather Togg WAS actually older than him and even if he was, that doesn't mean he had anything like a warren.
#24
vaiski
- High Fist
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 496
- Joined: 12-May 04
Posted 21 September 2005 - 01:52 PM
Quote
Beside, it's never really said weather Togg WAS actually older than him and even if he was, that doesn't mean he had anything like a warren.
"They were young entities as far as he and his mate were conserned, and the warren she might have fled to was, in comparison to those of Elder Gods, ancient."
Looks to me, that Togg is older than K'rul and same goes with whatever warren he is referring to.
#27
Imperial Historian
- Master of the Deck
-
- Group: Administrators
- Posts: 7,883
- Joined: 08-February 04
Posted 21 September 2005 - 06:40 PM
My take on the whole warren creation thing, with krul, darkness, chaos and all that buisness is that they are all really nice stories but they are just that, stories and they only give a vague hint as to what was going on in them days.
now my take on all the confusion about the creation myths...
First there is darkness, order and nothing prevail, there are no warrens becuase essentially there is nothing save the darkness. Then light appears and you get chaos, still strictly speaking no warrens are in existence.
Chaos is the first warren, but is not strictly a warren in itself more pure power in unconstrained from and as such is extremely dangerous to yield, this forms the backdrop in which all the warrens were formed.
Out of this mixture of chaos and darkness, you get the elder gods forming, various realms, races, the tiste peoples all that jazz...then k'rul imposes order on the chaos and all these realms and the warrens form bringing a form of order to these events.
Chaos however remains as the backdrop to the warrens and so is older, and this warren is togg's (togg after all finds toc in a warren of chaos) so toggs warren is ancient in comparrison to the elder gods as they all use warrens derived from krul, whilst togg uses the original power.
anyway thats my attempt at clarification... it's probably confused you all more but hey...
now my take on all the confusion about the creation myths...
First there is darkness, order and nothing prevail, there are no warrens becuase essentially there is nothing save the darkness. Then light appears and you get chaos, still strictly speaking no warrens are in existence.
Chaos is the first warren, but is not strictly a warren in itself more pure power in unconstrained from and as such is extremely dangerous to yield, this forms the backdrop in which all the warrens were formed.
Out of this mixture of chaos and darkness, you get the elder gods forming, various realms, races, the tiste peoples all that jazz...then k'rul imposes order on the chaos and all these realms and the warrens form bringing a form of order to these events.
Chaos however remains as the backdrop to the warrens and so is older, and this warren is togg's (togg after all finds toc in a warren of chaos) so toggs warren is ancient in comparrison to the elder gods as they all use warrens derived from krul, whilst togg uses the original power.
anyway thats my attempt at clarification... it's probably confused you all more but hey...
#30 Guest_Wraith_*
Posted 22 September 2005 - 11:55 AM
thanks, that makes sense.
so, do you think I was wrong about the whole omtose phellack thing?
Then does anyone know what Toc was rambling on about?
so, do you think I was wrong about the whole omtose phellack thing?
Then does anyone know what Toc was rambling on about?
#32
Imperial Historian
- Master of the Deck
-
- Group: Administrators
- Posts: 7,883
- Joined: 08-February 04
Posted 22 September 2005 - 08:38 PM
Toc rambling on about denying the jaghut access to omtose phellack I recall, but i'm not sure how it fits in... togg is supposed to be lord of winter so perhaps he has some relationship with omtose phellack as well, but this is not the warren he used at the beginning of MOI so perhaps omtose is an offshoot of chaos and is somehow linked to togg. how or why though is up in the air.
#34 Guest_Killanthir_*
Posted 23 September 2005 - 01:40 AM
My theory is that Warrens existed before K'rul, although they may not have been thought of as "Warrens". K'rul took these Warrens/Realms into himself, as he did with the land that Kallor destroyed (which IIRC is now the Imperial Warren, yes?).
But I don't think the Elder warrens like Kurald Galain are a part of K'rul ...
But I don't think the Elder warrens like Kurald Galain are a part of K'rul ...
#35
Folken
- Never throw your life away so easily
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 2,908
- Joined: 11-September 04
- Location:Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posted 23 September 2005 - 01:45 AM
KG and SD make up the heart in K'Rul
<div align='center'>You must always strive to be the best, but you must never believe that you are - Juan Manuel Fangio</div>
#37 Guest_Killanthir_*
Posted 23 September 2005 - 01:52 AM
Jen said:
KG and SD make up the heart in K'Rul
I recall reading elsewhere that Starvald Demelain == Warren of Chaos. Is this true? Is there a reference in one of the books that makes an explicit relationship between the two?
I know that SD is "the Tiam Warren, the First Warren". And I know the Warren of Chaos has been described as the eldest warren by Crone. It would seem logical to think they are the same, but it just doesn't quite fit for some reason. Am I missing something?
#39
- Group: Unregistered / Not Logged In
Posted 23 September 2005 - 07:19 AM
Killanthir said:
I see .. I'm going to have to go back and re-read MoI and refresh my memory
I recall reading elsewhere that Starvald Demelain == Warren of Chaos. Is this true? Is there a reference in one of the books that makes an explicit relationship between the two?
I know that SD is "the Tiam Warren, the First Warren". And I know the Warren of Chaos has been described as the eldest warren by Crone. It would seem logical to think they are the same, but it just doesn't quite fit for some reason. Am I missing something?
I recall reading elsewhere that Starvald Demelain == Warren of Chaos. Is this true? Is there a reference in one of the books that makes an explicit relationship between the two?
I know that SD is "the Tiam Warren, the First Warren". And I know the Warren of Chaos has been described as the eldest warren by Crone. It would seem logical to think they are the same, but it just doesn't quite fit for some reason. Am I missing something?
It's how I understood it.. *shrug*.. I too recall a reference..
Darkness, chaos, light
#40
Imperial Historian
- Master of the Deck
-
- Group: Administrators
- Posts: 7,883
- Joined: 08-February 04
Posted 23 September 2005 - 03:53 PM
Quote
Does Togg necessarilly have to be using warrens at all ?
Remember he was around like before Krul. What did he use for magic before then ?
Remember he was around like before Krul. What did he use for magic before then ?
Before k'rul all magic would necessarily have depended on using the raw power in the form of chaos (which we know togg uses, as he enters teh warren of chaos in MOI)
Quote
My theory is that Warrens existed before K'rul, although they may not have been thought of as "Warrens". K'rul took these Warrens/Realms into himself, as he did with the land that Kallor destroyed (which IIRC is now the Imperial Warren, yes?).
But I don't think the Elder warrens like Kurald Galain are a part of K'rul ...
But I don't think the Elder warrens like Kurald Galain are a part of K'rul ...
I think your right in saying that much of the worlds which became "warrens" existed before k'rul, but he imposed order on them and enclosed them in himself, they are now part of him and can be used a spower sources, but all warrens must now be part of him i think, even if they weren't originally.
Quote
Are you saying that Light is chaos, or that the addition of light to dark creates chaos?
I'm saying that the coming of chaos to the world is linked to light in someway (going from creation myths, and various passing references) I'd say the coming of light brought chaos (seeing as it is in direct opposition to darkness which is order) but it is entirely possible that it was chaos which brought light.
As to chaos=SD i've always been sceptical of that, SD may be the warren which most closely resembles the pure power of chaos, but using chaos drives you mad, and the draconean soletaken don't seem to have gone mad. plus crone refers to hairlock using the warren of chaos with horror, and doesn't seem fussed when the draconean soletaken use starvald demelain.
Both are referred to as the first warren, but they seem very different. i'd say chaos was the first pwoer source, but it isnt stirctly a warren, whilst SD is the first warren as created by k'rul (or possibly seeing as though k'rul is draconean, SD created him, then he created the warrens, and took SD into himself, thus all warrens coming from SD through k'rul)
