[Nevyn]

 Tattersail_, on 16 February 2018 - 04:45 PM, said:

If I am not around to discuss then I suggest to you Mess that you vote in Venge as Chancellor next, we should get another liberal policy there. Can we keep flipping between Venge and Mess as Chancellor's if possible? Is this bad strategy in case one is Hitler?

Venge can't be chancellor because he was pres on the last government.

ANd with only 1 fascist policy passed, there is no real good reason to limit ourselves to 2 chancellors anyway.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 16 February 2018 - 04:50 PM

[D'rek]

 Nevyn, on 16 February 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

 D, on 16 February 2018 - 04:40 PM, said:

You've voted Nein on every single vote except for the one where ItWaesNom was President, and now you put him as your chancellor candidate. Hmm...

I put the matter up for suggestions and arguments, and no one, including you, had any.

Well no, why would I point it out while you still had a chance to take your foot back out of your mouth? I waited until your chancellor pick was confirmed on purpose.

 Nevyn, on 16 February 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

Also not sure why you think I'd care who was chancellor if I was fascist.

Wow, so now it's not only "I'll never vote Ja for a government I'm not on" (ignoring that you *did* for ItWaesNom) and ALSO "of course I don't actually care who my chancellor pick is, it doesn't matter at all" ??? You're just going to double down on the idea that there is no info or meaningful choice in anything you do?


As for the policy counts, meh, it's very easy for one of the presidents to have lied. There could easily be 0 liberals left or there could be 2. I don't think it's productive to just assume the next government is screwed and not still try to get a BCS.

[Tattersail_]

You are arguing with a Fascist Nevyn.

[Nevyn]

 D, on 16 February 2018 - 04:55 PM, said:

 Nevyn, on 16 February 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

 D, on 16 February 2018 - 04:40 PM, said:

You've voted Nein on every single vote except for the one where ItWaesNom was President, and now you put him as your chancellor candidate. Hmm...

I put the matter up for suggestions and arguments, and no one, including you, had any.

Well no, why would I point it out while you still had a chance to take your foot back out of your mouth? I waited until your chancellor pick was confirmed on purpose.

 Nevyn, on 16 February 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

Also not sure why you think I'd care who was chancellor if I was fascist.

Wow, so now it's not only "I'll never vote Ja for a government I'm not on" (ignoring that you *did* for ItWaesNom) and ALSO "of course I don't actually care who my chancellor pick is, it doesn't matter at all" ??? You're just going to double down on the idea that there is no info or meaningful choice in anything you do?


As for the policy counts, meh, it's very easy for one of the presidents to have lied. There could easily be 0 liberals left or there could be 2. I don't think it's productive to just assume the next government is screwed and not still try to get a BCS.

Can't figure out if you just have no idea what you're talking about or if you are a fascist muddying the waters.

For the umpteenth time, I didn't say I'd never vote Ja for a team I'm not on. I said that was my default position early when I have no other information.

And I am not saying that my chancellor choice does not matter. It matters a lot.

What I said was that if I were fascist (which you are implying) I would not care about putting a fascist on as chancellor because I would not need them. Which means that your attempt to suggest I am somehow coordinating with Nom is, well, ridiculous.

And while you are trying to throw my fully explained Ja vote for Nom in my face, I'll point out that that Nom passed a liberal policy (and given VEnge's results almost certainly had the option not to). So what are you suggesting? That Nom is hitler and I'm going to pass a 4th liberal policy to keep people trusting him?

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 16 February 2018 - 05:16 PM

[Nevyn]

 Tattersail_, on 16 February 2018 - 04:58 PM, said:

You are arguing with a Fascist Nevyn.

I'm starting to believe you.

But again, no reason to include either of you in a government until we know.

[D'rek]

 Nevyn, on 16 February 2018 - 05:10 PM, said:

 D, on 16 February 2018 - 04:55 PM, said:

 Nevyn, on 16 February 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

 D, on 16 February 2018 - 04:40 PM, said:

You've voted Nein on every single vote except for the one where ItWaesNom was President, and now you put him as your chancellor candidate. Hmm...

I put the matter up for suggestions and arguments, and no one, including you, had any.

Well no, why would I point it out while you still had a chance to take your foot back out of your mouth? I waited until your chancellor pick was confirmed on purpose.

 Nevyn, on 16 February 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

Also not sure why you think I'd care who was chancellor if I was fascist.

Wow, so now it's not only "I'll never vote Ja for a government I'm not on" (ignoring that you *did* for ItWaesNom) and ALSO "of course I don't actually care who my chancellor pick is, it doesn't matter at all" ??? You're just going to double down on the idea that there is no info or meaningful choice in anything you do?


As for the policy counts, meh, it's very easy for one of the presidents to have lied. There could easily be 0 liberals left or there could be 2. I don't think it's productive to just assume the next government is screwed and not still try to get a BCS.

Can't figure out if you just have no idea what you're talking about or if you are a fascist muddying the waters.

For the umpteenth time, I didn't say I'd never vote Ja for a team I'm not on. I said that was my default position early when I have no other information.

And I am not saying that my chancellor choice does not matter. It matters a lot.

What I said was that if I were fascist (which you are implying) I would not care about putting a fascist on as chancellor because I would not need them. Which means that your attempt to suggest I am somehow coordinating with Nom is, well, ridiculous.

It's gonna be pretty funny if, after all this above talk, it turns out you really are liberal but Nom is fascist and he claims you only gave him fascist policies.

[Nevyn]

Thems the breaks of being a liberal.

If nom did that, the only way we liberals could lose is if cause is really liberal. And even then, i could investigate.

[Vengeance]

Reading up. I am going to hold off voting until I have a clear understanding of what you guys are talking about. I passed 2 liberal policies on to Dolman because I wanted a liberal policy to be passed. As President the best way to do that is to give the chancellor no choice.

[Vengeance]

 Nevyn, on 16 February 2018 - 05:40 PM, said:

Thems the breaks of being a liberal.

If nom did that, the only way we liberals could lose is if cause is really liberal. And even then, i could investigate.

Huh

[Nevyn]

 Vengeance, on 16 February 2018 - 06:43 PM, said:

Reading up. I am going to hold off voting until I have a clear understanding of what you guys are talking about. I passed 2 liberal policies on to Dolman because I wanted a liberal policy to be passed. As President the best way to do that is to give the chancellor no choice.

What we are talking about is that when the distribution is 2-1 liberal, the president's only option is to pass 2 liberal or 1 of each. Thus a fascist president cannot cause it to fail unless the chancellor is also fascist.

Whereas when there are 2 fascist, 1 liberal, the president can discard the liberal and force a fascist policy.

None of that makes you good or bad. It just means the way the cards came out do nothing to verify you.


As for your choice to pass 2 liberals and "force" Messremb, that is perfectly valid, but there is tradeoff there. If instead you passed Messremb a choice, then if Messremb failed it you would both have known 100% that Messremb was a fascist, and you would have been able to investigate either Drek/Tatts and figure out which was a liberal, or investigate Cause and confirm fascist. Instead, you guaranteed another liberal policy, but we are still in a position where we will be including Messremb on future governments.

For instance, if Messremb WERE a hiding fascist, there is a risk he would now pass a fascist policy on his upcoming presidency, and then also get the investigation.

Either choice is valid, but there is a tradeoff there.

[Nevyn]

 Vengeance, on 16 February 2018 - 06:44 PM, said:

 Nevyn, on 16 February 2018 - 05:40 PM, said:

Thems the breaks of being a liberal.

If nom did that, the only way we liberals could lose is if cause is really liberal. And even then, i could investigate.

Huh

One of Drek/Tatts is fascist. If Nom tried to screw me over, you'd all know one of me and Nom was fascist. Cause is most likely fascist. There are 3 fascists. So you could simply run back yourself, Messremb and Dolmen for the rest of the game and there would be no way the fascists could win.

The only way that would not work would be if Cause were just a liberal who screwed up (in which case 1 of you, mess, and dolmen could be fascist). But even that is fairly easy to tell and adapt to. And I find that pretty unlikely.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Honestly, I don't know how to feel about Nevyn.

He is trying hard to make sense but it's tough to access it because of volumes of him saying things that I am not sure I agree with.

Nom picking Mess says more for him than Nom playing cards to Mess. Mess picking Liberal each time vets him pretty highly in my books.

I would like this govt if I could make a mind on Nevyns motivation.

[Tattersail_]

 Dolmen 2.0, on 16 February 2018 - 07:14 PM, said:

Honestly, I don't know how to feel about Nevyn.

He is trying hard to make sense but it's tough to access it because of volumes of him saying things that I am not sure I agree with.

Nom picking Mess says more for him than Nom playing cards to Mess. Mess picking Liberal each time vets him pretty highly in my books.

I would like this govt if I could make a mind on Nevyns motivation.

Its funny how Nevyn is arguing with a fascist (Drek) and you don't know how you feel about him. Definitely have you tied to Drek at the moment.

[Tattersail_]

Nothing you've done yet confirms you as Liberal.

I agree with Nom picking Mess is good for Nom but that's what any fascist would want, a liberal label.

[Nevyn]

 Tattersail_, on 16 February 2018 - 07:17 PM, said:

 Dolmen 2.0, on 16 February 2018 - 07:14 PM, said:

Honestly, I don't know how to feel about Nevyn.

He is trying hard to make sense but it's tough to access it because of volumes of him saying things that I am not sure I agree with.

Nom picking Mess says more for him than Nom playing cards to Mess. Mess picking Liberal each time vets him pretty highly in my books.

I would like this govt if I could make a mind on Nevyns motivation.

Its funny how Nevyn is arguing with a fascist (Drek) and you don't know how you feel about him. Definitely have you tied to Drek at the moment.

I still don't understand your logic of tying Dolmen to Drek, and it goes back to what I was explaining before. Fascist presidents don't really need fascist chancellors or appoint them with greater than random regularity. Even if we accept that Drek is the fascist and you a liberal, that says nothing about Dolmen.

[Dolmen 2.0]

 Tattersail_, on 16 February 2018 - 07:17 PM, said:

 Dolmen 2.0, on 16 February 2018 - 07:14 PM, said:

Honestly, I don't know how to feel about Nevyn. He is trying hard to make sense but it's tough to access it because of volumes of him saying things that I am not sure I agree with.Nom picking Mess says more for him than Nom playing cards to Mess. Mess picking Liberal each time vets him pretty highly in my books.I would like this govt if I could make a mind on Nevyns motivation.

Its funny how Nevyn is arguing with a fascist (Drek) and you don't know how you feel about him. Definitely have you tied to Drek at the moment.

Not funny at all.

I have not recently started to be unsure about Nevyn. Nevyn has always been a player I want to figure out. I had him as a candidate option for that precise reason. I want to find out where Nevyns loyalties lie, a good place to do that would be him in a role. I think his arguments with D'rek confuse the issue. Evidence of how he plays the role of president would clear things up for me. I don't see where the on thread arguments lead and if D'rek is fascist how they serve fascist agenda.

 Tattersail_, on 16 February 2018 - 07:18 PM, said:

Nothing you've done yet confirms you as Liberal.I agree with Nom picking Mess is good for Nom but that's what any fascist would want, a liberal label.

You see this is what I don't understand. 'Any fascist would want a liberal label', and yet here you are, one half of a Fascist policy, trying to get me to confirm I'm liberal as if I'm the one that looks more questionable.

I don't want a liberal label, I want liberal policies. This thinking is where I start to look at you funny and why I'm happy not voting for either you or d'rek.

But you two are not the issue here. Nevyn is. If he picked Nom and the two play true we can be sure of a win knowing where to look for Liberal policies to be played.

I want to know if this is a risk the group wants to take or if we want to move on to a 'safer' option whatever that may be.

[Nevyn]

 Dolmen 2.0, on 16 February 2018 - 07:14 PM, said:

Honestly, I don't know how to feel about Nevyn.

He is trying hard to make sense but it's tough to access it because of volumes of him saying things that I am not sure I agree with.

Nom picking Mess says more for him than Nom playing cards to Mess. Mess picking Liberal each time vets him pretty highly in my books.

I would like this govt if I could make a mind on Nevyns motivation.

If there is anything I've said you aren't sure of, feel free to ask for clarification.

As to the sheer volume, apologies for that, but Drek keeps throwing out illogical accusations that I feel the need to explain.

As to the bolded part, that is not really true. Again, a fascist president can usually force a fascist policy regardless of who the chancellor is. So picking Mess (who people trusted) as chancellor is simply a way to make it more likely people approve your government, something Nom would do as either fascist or liberal.

But having seen only 1 liberal policy (which Nom has claimed and is likely) and still passed it to Mess does say something good about Nom, because he could instead have discarded the liberal policy, told us all he was only passed 3 fascist policies, and then burned the investigation (or used it if he was hitler).

[D'rek]

 Dolmen 2.0, on 16 February 2018 - 08:24 PM, said:

 Tattersail_, on 16 February 2018 - 07:17 PM, said:

 Dolmen 2.0, on 16 February 2018 - 07:14 PM, said:

Honestly, I don't know how to feel about Nevyn. He is trying hard to make sense but it's tough to access it because of volumes of him saying things that I am not sure I agree with.Nom picking Mess says more for him than Nom playing cards to Mess. Mess picking Liberal each time vets him pretty highly in my books.I would like this govt if I could make a mind on Nevyns motivation.

Its funny how Nevyn is arguing with a fascist (Drek) and you don't know how you feel about him. Definitely have you tied to Drek at the moment.

Not funny at all.

I have not recently started to be unsure about Nevyn. Nevyn has always been a player I want to figure out. I had him as a candidate option for that precise reason. I want to find out where Nevyns loyalties lie, a good place to do that would be him in a role. I think his arguments with D'rek confuse the issue. Evidence of how he plays the role of president would clear things up for me. I don't see where the on thread arguments lead and if D'rek is fascist how they serve fascist agenda.

 Tattersail_, on 16 February 2018 - 07:18 PM, said:

Nothing you've done yet confirms you as Liberal.I agree with Nom picking Mess is good for Nom but that's what any fascist would want, a liberal label.

You see this is what I don't understand. 'Any fascist would want a liberal label', and yet here you are, one half of a Fascist policy, trying to get me to confirm I'm liberal as if I'm the one that looks more questionable.

I don't want a liberal label, I want liberal policies. This thinking is where I start to look at you funny and why I'm happy not voting for either you or d'rek.

But you two are not the issue here. Nevyn is. If he picked Nom and the two play true we can be sure of a win knowing where to look for Liberal policies to be played.

I want to know if this is a risk the group wants to take or if we want to move on to a 'safer' option whatever that may be.

Oh, trust me, I'm soooooo delighted to be stuck in a 50/50 with Tattersail of all people, too

As for Nevyn, what's there to be unsure about? He's the guy who needs every single post he makes to be "No what you just said is wrong what I *really* meant was [insert convoluted strategy that makes no sense]". Not just with me, his responses to everyone are always these constant confusing refutations. I think I've just about given up on even trying to understand him at this point, when he have other VPI players that can actually have reasonable discussiions.

[Messremb]

 Nevyn, on 16 February 2018 - 06:53 PM, said:

 Vengeance, on 16 February 2018 - 06:43 PM, said:

Reading up. I am going to hold off voting until I have a clear understanding of what you guys are talking about. I passed 2 liberal policies on to Dolman because I wanted a liberal policy to be passed. As President the best way to do that is to give the chancellor no choice.

What we are talking about is that when the distribution is 2-1 liberal, the president's only option is to pass 2 liberal or 1 of each. Thus a fascist president cannot cause it to fail unless the chancellor is also fascist.

Whereas when there are 2 fascist, 1 liberal, the president can discard the liberal and force a fascist policy.

None of that makes you good or bad. It just means the way the cards came out do nothing to verify you.


As for your choice to pass 2 liberals and "force" Messremb, that is perfectly valid, but there is tradeoff there. If instead you passed Messremb a choice, then if Messremb failed it you would both have known 100% that Messremb was a fascist, and you would have been able to investigate either Drek/Tatts and figure out which was a liberal, or investigate Cause and confirm fascist. Instead, you guaranteed another liberal policy, but we are still in a position where we will be including Messremb on future governments.

For instance, if Messremb WERE a hiding fascist, there is a risk he would now pass a fascist policy on his upcoming presidency, and then also get the investigation.

Either choice is valid, but there is a tradeoff there.

Why're you trying to paint me as just having been chancellor?

[Messremb]

 Nevyn, on 16 February 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

 D, on 16 February 2018 - 04:40 PM, said:

You've voted Nein on every single vote except for the one where ItWaesNom was President, and now you put him as your chancellor candidate. Hmm...

I put the matter up for suggestions and arguments, and no one, including you, had any.

Also not sure why you think I'd care who was chancellor if I was fascist.

Policy counts thus far:

1 lib , 2 fasc
1 lib, 2 fasc
1 lib, 2 fasc
2 lib, 1 fasc

Than means 1 liberal policy left in the deck against 4 fascist ones. If I were a fascist, I could fail a policy with any chancellor. And I certainly wouldn't be putting hitler on a policy I planned to fail.

So what are you even talking about?

Lack of error bars for potentially dodgy Presidents makes this pretty pointless.