[Morgoth]

Dujeks army was exhausted, small, and with only one proficient mage fighting at leat ten times their number in experienced troops, mages drawing directly on chaos (which we know is deadly), Condors twisted to huge and lethal monster, and most importantly, scores of undead Kell hunters.. Explain again how this battle can be used as an example?

How can you possibly say that Tavore's army is not green when most of her soldiers barely have seen any action at all? There are a few veterans yet, but just a few.

[Imperial Historian]

The battle i was talking about was the last battle at the breaking of the siege of capustan, where the malazan army destroyed the elite forces of the pannion seer (i'm not sure of the exact numbers in this battle but the pannion veterans numbered at least 80000, and though some of this number had fallen in battles, i'd say that the numbers in this battle were at least twice or three times that of the malazans10000), it's page 539 of the TPB.

The difference between the experience of the troops is inextricably linked to morale and their commanders ability, put simply troops who have not been in a battle are MUCH more likely to freeze, be cut down or run, whilst experienced veterans who have done it all before are not.

Tavores army are clearly highly inexperienced, most of the soliders have never seen a battle, veterans? a few survivors from the chain of dogs (100? less?), blistigs city gaurd (hardly likely to be the most experienced troops), the red blades and a scattering of others not the most experienced combination, yes there seem to be veterans in the marines and the heavy infantry, but these are the elite and there aren't that many veterans among them.

As for training, it can only do so much, you don't become a deadly soldier jst from soem training, you ened experience first.

leoman himself has said of the malazans in tavores amry that they seemed about to break and run put under minimal pressure from his forces, facing dujeks determined veterans they would be destroyed, they might have the training and equipment, but compared to the experience of dujeks men (10 years of fighting in the most difficult conditions most of them, and all in there prime) thats not a lot. Plus there officers from what we saw were not of the highest calibre.

As to tavores appointment, she was appointed after lorn had died yes and before paran became aware that he was the master of the deck, but he had the potential to be master of the deck from the time that tatersail died, and tays would have been well aware of that, since he seems to be the expert on these matter.

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3. has anyone ever thought about the fact that tavore was never a part of the army and neither did she receive any real training till her appointment as adjunct? How could she become adjunct in that way? Just cause of political influence helped by (maybe) some little ability and possibly by the fact that Laseen (really really unlikely) had the intuition (based on nothing at the time!) that Paran (why him? They believed he was gonna die in GoM) was to become the master of the deck!

she didn't have political influence, she was from a minor, weak noble house, She became adjunct because her brother was likely to be the master of the deck (which would deifnitly have been suspected by the end of GotM, and tavore became adjunct after that) she had abilty and since she was noble but not particularly loyal to them she could plan there destruction.

[Trotts]

settle down children, or youll have to be seperated

[Imperial Historian]

@hetan
Thank's.... I try


@Ganoes

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moreover they had gauged the adjuncts tactics and the mettle of the soldiers. more than once concerted pressure on the regular ifantry had buckled them, and had leoman the numbers he could have pressed home and routed them

There you go, leomans assesment of tavores regular troops, the only reason that he was unable to press hoem was the presence of the burned tears and the wickans (which hume discounted from the equation way back, as tehy are not part of the group which tavore was initially given command over)

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He had potential? Based on what? Oh, I'm friend to a person groomed to be president of the united states so if he dies I'm gonna have the potential to be one too!?! Do you really believe it??

Sigh... the master of teh deck isn't exactly a mundane position, it's based on a highly complex system of warrens and teh deck of dragons, which we know nothing about. Suffice it to say that paran inherited this position from tatersail because he was closest to her (tays says all this in the book if you dont believe me)

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Yes Tays seems to be expert of these things... based on what?

Paran is the first Master of the Deck in ages!

Yes Tays IS an expert on these things as is evident from any reading of teh book, for a start he is an adept with teh deck of dragons, he was aware of the fact tat a master of teh deck would appear, enough so to begin grooming a malazan for the role. Upon the death of tatersail, we can assume it would not be beyond him with time to figure out that Paran was the one who this position would fall to considering hsi ability with the art of divination and reading the deck of dragons.

The troops that dujek faced were the remainder of the pannion veterans, the number of these veterans we are told is at least 60000, who are later reinforced increasing the numbers to an unknown number. After attacking capustan a number would have been destroyed, and after facing teh white face there would have been further casualties. Retreating from capustan they meet the malazan force of 10000 on there own.

Assuming that teh reinforcements were from a smaller army (despite the pannion armies suppose dot be all of teh same size) then you are left with an initial estimate of pannion numbers at say 100000, if 20000 as an absolute maximum were defeated by the defenders of capustan (with approx 10000 defenders and 2 for 1 casualties, and discounting the tenescowrrii) then you are left with 80000 facing the white face barghast... it is not unreasonable to suppose that the remanents of this force exceeded 20-30 thousand, which was defeated within minutes by the malazans, with an exceedingly light casualty bill.

Now most of that is speculation, but if onearms host can defeat a larger force in minutes, consisting of tempered elite soldiers (including seer domin) it is highly likley that they would be able to quickly dispatch a force of green recruits, with the bare minimum of training who can barely mnage to organise themselves on a parade ground.

Now you can agree with that or disagree with that, but I think most people would agree taht dujek is the much more dangerous force (the seven cities rebels woudl seem to agree with that, fearing onearms host much more than tavores green troops)

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Neither it has been stated that she was given the charge to plan the elimination of the nobles!

Yes it has, its patently obvious from teh description of the event in Dhg, and from what dujek and whiskeyjack said discussing it in MOI that tavore commanded that operation.

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nowhere is said that house Paran is a minor noble house, instead we have a lot of nobles in the Malazan Empire which are just nobles (there are no dukes, counts or so on)

No, but from evidence we have in the books this seems to be the case, for a start there are no mentions of house paran being a wide ranging house, secondly the house itself, it is not huge, or richly decorated, the gaurd is small, tehre is nothing to indicate thatthey are a rich or powerful house.

Then you have parans description of his father in GotM, who he describes as a wine merchant, who has come to malaz isle to perform trade negotiations, not the actions of a powerful man who would have sent underlings to such a backwater.

Oh and theres the fact that Paran si a widely recognise dname, which it certianly would be if hosue paran had any real power, or power enough anyway to ensure that Paran would be quickly given a position of real power because of his "connections"

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but it looks like in this forum there is a group of people who defends each other just 'cause they are old members

Actually if I think anyone is wrong i'll disagree with them, which i do... frequently, theres no group who defned each other just because they are odl forum members, you've just decided to stick on a topic which most people happen to disagree with you on, its not a personal attack on you.

[Folken]

Paran actually is the only Master to date. I can't be bothered to pull out the actual quote from MoI, but yeah. Just thought I'd point that out.

Continue your discussions, this is fabulous:D

[Imperial Historian]

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Paran actually is the only Master to date. I can't be bothered to pull out the actual quote from MoI, but yeah. Just thought I'd point that out.

I didn't think i was disagreeing with that but hey...

though to be absoloutely correct he is the only master of the deck that we are aware of... parans conversations with nightchill would indicate that he thinks there were others.

[Folken]

Oh I know you weren't...but someone said something about him being the first in AGES...meaning there were others. Just thought I'd clarify.

And to echo IH, you're just coming along and challenging long established beliefs. So obviously people are going to go on the defense...exactly like we're doing with Roland pretty much:p

If only the archieved threads were still around:(

[Hume]

Ganoes said:

Paran is the first Master of the Deck in ages!

...

With that battle at Caputstan Dujek took the east part of outside Caputstan, Brood the south. That was mutual support, not direct support. So dujek did not have the help of Brood or anyone else at that battle. the Andii took care of Mages on the west. While ALL the peasant army was on the north. The barghast took the actual city itself.
When you were talking about the battle of Coral. yes Dujek did get fairly decimated there. However to begin with when he was fighting the Pannion at first he did a fairly decent job. However I have two words for you; K'Chain Che'male. Dujek did NOT get saved by the other armies that arrived a little later. In fact once the K'chain Che'mal turned up everyone was getting slaughtered, well actually maybe not the Mott irregullars. It wasnt until the T'lan Ay turned up that everyone was saved there.

With the point you've said up there On Paran. Paran became master of the deck by accident. If you read that converstion between Dujek and Whiskeyjack 2/3's the way through MoI, you'll find out that Tayschrenn and Laseen wanted Tattersail to become Master of the Deck but because she died and how she died, and at the time she was becoming mistress of the deck, but the role got passed on to the nearest mortal; Paran, and he never wanted it.


And no we dont gang up and attack newbies. In fact I know i have had arguments with jeni'sund Rul at least a few times, I think Morgoth as well hetan once. But yeh Like IH If I think someone is wrong in something I correct them, dosent matter who they are.