[Hume]

Umm Yes.. Comming from someone that serves in an armed forces, YES it does matter of the quality of your soldiers when it comes to commanding.
Numbers dont mean anything.
What Im saying is that if Dujek commanding his 3-4 thousand Fought Tavores 10,000 she would get whooped anytime.
There is a quote in MoI saying that some of the soldiers in 2nd army date all the way back to the seven cities campaign, the first campaign.

With her whole political influence thing. I dont doubt that it helped her get to where she is, However she HAD to severe her connection with her family as she had noble Blood. When it came to the uprising in Unta she Let her family die and her sister get turned into a monster in the mines. She had to sever her connections to prove to the Empress that she was worthy of the Job.
I dont doubt that she is a decent commander so far.
The problem with your arguments on Tavore and the army she commands is that they lack experience.
So how can you rate the an army with NO experience as the greateset Malazan army ?

With Paran becoming a fist, While yes it may have been possible for him to become one his qualities as a fist would been to put it bluntly -> Crap. Paran even states when he walks into the Inn in Gotm in Pale how that without his training with Lorn he wouldnt have been able to relate to the soldiers under him at all. Personally like Fool said I dont think Paran has done anything so far that is great at all, apart from blessing the BB.

[Folken]

I think Ganoes(the Ganoes on this here board) loves the captain too much:p

But still Hume, you give Paran less credit than he deserves. I'll admit Paran is probably the only streotypical fantasy character in these novels, but still there is a lot more to him. I suspect we'll see that in Bonehunters. The only thing that I dislike about his character, or the way his story so far has been, is the fact he did nothing about Felisin. Leaving everything to Tavore and trusting her and all was in my opinion the correct thing to do, but he still just left Felisin to her faith, which pissed me off.

[Folken]

Oh and yes Ganoes, listen to Hume:p

Tavore becoming Adjunct had nothing to do with political influence. She was Noble Born and so probably the last person in mind to take over as Adjunct the way things were shaping in the capital. She obviously got that position because Laseen saw something in her, albiet not enough to let her run the 7C's campaign to its end, but nonetheless. Her merit is shown in her ability to track down a Talon, wether he really was one or not is debatable, and enlist his help in protecting Felisin.

[Hume]

Yes, Folken speaks words of wisdom there.


the thing is when Bonhuneters comes out Im actually expecting Tavore to be quite a capable commander (maybe not Dujek or Coltaine level but still fairly good).
Im also expecting the 14th army to shape up to be quite good as well (not also of the 2nd army level though it, that would take a fair bit of time).

But the fact is you can only argue on what has already happened.

[Morgoth]

In some ways, Ganoes is correct. Tavore did gain her position before the fall of the nobels. As far as i've understood it she was the one that kicked them over the edge in the first place. However, I seriously doubt that the Empress would allow anyone to become her new right hand based on the political influence they wielded. Seriously, do you really think even the combined influence of all the nobel families would be enough to force the Empress to choce a specific person as her closest servant?

But back to the topic at hand.. Whether Paran would have made a good fist at this stage of his life is irrelevant. The whole point is that he Could have become a fist but instead chose a much more difficult path. That counts in Paran's favour no?

[Edit] And yeah, on a sidenote. It would be better for the discussion if people stopped telling others to go read the books one more time. It just makes whomever says it seem immature and rather silly.

[Hume]

Ganoes said:

Tavore becoming Adjunct has a lot to do with it 'cause she became Adjunct before the fall of the nobles!!! Moreover she was selected because she was one of them!!

You should have seen in the Dark Ages a battle between 3000 more experienced knights against 10000 well trained knights (not to say that a good part them are experienced (ex members of Còltaine's army)... Do you believe that the 3000 would have won?? Based on what? please, if so, study history...

Lastly, you should tell me what tavore has done to get the respect of the her troopers? Defeated her weak sister? Cause she has just done that...nothing more!!

Your first point.
How do you know she was selected because she was one of them ? Lorn was selected at the time that the nobles last fell, not before, its at the start of DG when felisin is being marched away and sees her sister in her new role. Yes I have the books more than once.

"(not to say that a good part them are experienced (ex members of Còltaine's army)... "
That "good part of them" is I recall is 11 wickans (pg 282 HoC), though no doubt there would have been a few dozen more non-wickans as well, at most a 100-150 people from the Chain of dogs out of 10,000 troops. Once again, yes I have the books. Then there were yes 300 Old wickans that arrived from accross the seas. Also on page 373 when the recreits gather at the parade ground it is described how how disordelly the 8th legion gets to the parade ground, it then describes how dont care what their superiors are telling them to at the time as well. That is also Very Poor Disciple. Something that can evident in Inexperienced army such as this one.
Simple as that, Tavores army is NOT the greatest malazan army at all. not even close.
With your point of studying history. Yes I do have a good understanding of it. when you put experienced troops up against troops that not experienced even outnumbered quite abit they will win.

You last point agrees with what im saying pretty much. I agree with it. I never did disagree with it.

[Folken]

Morgoth said:

[Edit] And yeah, on a sidenote. It would be better for the discussion if people stopped telling others to go read the books one more time. It just makes whomever says it seem immature and rather silly.

Aye and all that yelling doesn't help him either:rolleyes:

She was choosen, yes partly because she had the ability to get noticed, but as Morgoth says thats not the only reason. You don't become the 2nd highest authority in the empire because you have connections. Sure Laseen needed help in bringing the nobility down, but she sure as hell wouldn't have given Tavore the position of Adjunct in exchange for such information.

Oh and who said she LET her parents die? Their father was already dieing in GotM and then their mother followed suite...which I figured was suicide or something.

[Trotts]

terrain plays an important role in combat as well. i think there was a battle involving like 400 spartan soldiers, and much larger number of persian soldiers, and because of a bottleneck the spartans tore down the persians

[Imperial Historian]

Ganoes, house paran is a fairly minor merchant house, the house in itself does not have the connections, power or wealth to make a member of it one of the most powerful in the empire.

As to the 3000 vs the 10000, taking the example frrom the books in MOI the 10000 malazans demolished a larger force of experienced soldiers under the pannion seer in mere minutes. It is entirely plausible that a force of 3000 under dujek could defeat tavore's 10000, simply becuse they are green inexperienced soldiers, who we know are likely to panic (from leomans comments in HoC), who would be nowhere near a match to the veterans of dujek.

Tavore became the adjunct in my opinion one because of natural ability and two in the hope that she would be able to exert influence on the new master of the deck.

[Trotts]

a good chunk of the pannions forces were just peasants driven into a blood frenzy (i think)

and as to the spartan-persian incidident, won the battle, lost the war, heh

but still an example of a smaller force severly decimating a larger one.

[Hume]

@ Count chocula

The ones that Dujek fought in the battle of Pale where actual soldiers. All the peasants never actual participated in the post siege battle.


@ Ganoes

yes there are some veterens in Tavores army. Most of them no doubt were made corparals or sergeants, but around 8/10 of the army is Green. as an estimate.
In Dujeks army, there are soldiers that date all the way back to the first seven cities campaign, im pretty sure they are going to be almost as good as bridgeburners.


With Historical examples, I'll get back to you on that, I know there are examples.

[Hume]

@ Ganoes

The point IH was arguing was that Dujek went up against a much more superior force in numbers against the panions. You said you cant compare the pannion army as they are mostly peasants. Go to page 722 MoI paperback and point me out to the peasants that that Dujek fought, because he didnt fight peasants.

[Therion]

Regarding Tavore's ability to command: do you recall Felisin/Sha'iks POVs in House of Chains, were she remembers Tavore re-enacting a historical battle of House D'Avore with toy soldiers, at age nine? Of her being "cold iron", like Leoman? Also, recall her adept use of Dassem's tactics.

Also, I have to agree that Laseen apparently has seen something in Tavore which made her chose her as Lorn's replacement. To me, having Dujek ordered to 7C is not due to a lack of faith in Tavore's competence, but her EXPERIENCE.

Sure, this PROVES nothing yet, but my guess is that Tavore WILL eventually be one of the great military minds of the Empire. At least that's how I understood SE's intention in writing these scenes. And I expect that Tavore and the Bonehunters will gain experience in, well, "Bonehunters" .

[Imperial Historian]

No Ganoes, the pannion's army consisted of two parts... the tenescowri peasent fodder, and other much better troops, who were well equipped, well trained, and had fought and won a series of battles in the pannion seerdom's expansion, tehyw ere considered "elites". The army dujek fought was not "peasent fodder" but well equipped veterans, and the fact is that this larger force was demolished in short order by dujeks troops. They were not aided in this battle by any other armies.

Previously dujek and his allies had defeated other groups of trained soldiers, whilst the tenescowrii the peaseant horde remained unengaged... the reason dujek's force won was because they were well led by a popular general and consisted of veterans with high morale.

When you compare this to tavores troops, who are green, there general isn't exactly ppular, and morale is not the best, plus there's the fact that leoman has said that the rank and file showed signs of buckling under pressure, and that witha few mroe troops he woudl destroy them.

The fact is that dujeks remanents are much more to be feared than tavores green troops.

As to tavores selection... tayschern new or at leats suspecte dthat paran was the master of the deck since tatersails death (he was an adept with the deck after all, and was grooming tatersail for this position), tavore was selected as adjunct after news of the outlawing of dujeks army (and paran) reached malaz, this being one of teh reaosns for tavpres actions, so it can be assumed that tavores selection had SOMETHING to do with paran being master of the deck (or at least suspected of being such)

the fact that house paran is noble in my opinion has little to do with tavore becoming adjunct, laseen was sick of the nobles influence, house paran's influence in nobles circles from what i can gather wasn't huge (definitly not enough in any case for lasseen to have to choose tavore because of the nobles influence) Tavore would have to have been chosen because of her own qualities, and the fact that her brother is the master of the deck.