[WhiskeyJohn]

Dancer is.the most interesting character of the lot imo.

How did he fight equal to Cowl? Cowl is a mage who can Access Meanas. Dancer though has excellent training and talented...was not a mage. He doesn't even have the Otataral knives like Kalam.

And is he the only ascendant who is not a mage and has no Warren or hold Access? He gets access to Shadow after Ascension, but till then he was just a human who achieved Ascension.

[Nevyn]

WhiskeyJohn, on 01 December 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

Dancer is.the most interesting character of the lot imo.

How did he fight equal to Cowl? Cowl is a mage who can Access Meanas. Dancer though has excellent training and talented...was not a mage. He doesn't even have the Otataral knives like Kalam.

And is he the only ascendant who is not a mage and has no Warren or hold Access? He gets access to Shadow after Ascension, but till then he was just a human who achieved Ascension.

You may have to change your thread title.

Anyway, they sort of answer why Cowl doesn't use warrens in the book. He finds out Dancer has a partner who is a mage. There is a line somewhere where he finds that out where he basically decides he'll just have to settle without magic. He also has a massive ego and in the fight in question has the upper hand for a good part of it. So he would never feel like he had to.

As for ascendants that are not mages, not really the only one, but the main one. Also, once he ascends he has some powers associated with the warren (his rope, moving in and out of Shadow without ST there, possessing Apsalar). But other non mages ascend. The bridgeburners ascend. First Heroes like Trake ascend and while they were Soletaken there is no mention of them using warren magic.

[nacht]

This confused me too.


First, it was a matter of pride, to measure oneself against the best without cheating. Cowl kind of alludes to this when Lee had a clear shot at Surly and Cowl stops it saying that it would be unfair.
Second, once the fight started and it was all closeup action, there probably was no time to bring up Rashan. Any interruption to do that would result in death. Dancer is trained to recognize typical gestures to activate warrens.

[Abyss]

Cowl did try to use a warren vs Dancer - seemed like Mokra tho it could have been a Rashan variant - when they were locked in close and Cowl was trying to convince Dancer to give up. Dancer was strong-willed enough to fight through.

As for Cowl`s other warrens, this was a pride match. He needed to beat Dancer knife to knife. Also, crazy.

[WhiskeyJohn]

Honestly I'm not so sure on pride being a factor. Cowl is a sure thing operator. He'd just kill with magic and still take credit with pride.

I'm more curious as Dancer found tracking Wu so difficult in starting chapters of Lament. With access to Warren's, Cowl should have a major advantage.

Closest to Dancer will be Whiskeyjack for ascending without Warren access. The bridge burners were given Ascension due to Paran iirc for helping him in TBH.

[Tiste Simeon]

Nah Bridgeburners get ascension because of the Spiritwalker song from Kimloc in DG.

[Abyss]

The Bridgeburners ascended because...Raraku,Kimloc's song,Burial in Moons Spawn,Paran's blessing in MoI,andDeath needed a replacement for Hood.

[gataap]

WhiskeyJohn, on 01 December 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

Dancer is.the most interesting character of the lot imo.

How did he fight equal to Cowl? Cowl is a mage who can Access Meanas. Dancer though has excellent training and talented...was not a mage. He doesn't even have the Otataral knives like Kalam.

And is he the only ascendant who is not a mage and has no Warren or hold Access? He gets access to Shadow after Ascension, but till then he was just a human who achieved Ascension.

I thought cowl couldn't use magic because of the fight Tayschrenn was having with the priests.

if he used magic, he would get noticed and get zapped

[Nevyn]

There is a conversation with Cowl and Lee after he attempts whatever he attempted at Deadhouse.

He tells them K and D have returned and that K is a helluva mage, and then says he and dancer with have to settle it "blade to blade" or something like that, also indicating he prefers it because then it leaves no question who was better.

May edit later with chapter and quote.

[WhiskeyJohn]

One other points....when Kell was fighting the Hounds, Nightchill mentioned he had 3 sources of power, Meanas, Emurlahn and another. Is that the Imperial Warren that was Kallors realm?

Does Imperial Warren have power? Was it used in any other Malazan books?

[worry]

It is the Imperial Warren, and I don't think we've ever seen it used for sorcerous means before. It is as part of K'rul as all the human warrens, of course, but I can't think of any direct ties to Eleint or aspects. I suppose it's possible Kel is the only one who can channel it.

[Abyss]

WhiskeyJohn, on 04 December 2017 - 08:52 PM, said:

One other points....when Kell was fighting the Hounds, Nightchill mentioned he had 3 sources of power, Meanas, Emurlahn and another. Is that the Imperial Warren that was Kallors realm?

Does Imperial Warren have power? Was it used in any other Malazan books?

I understoood it was Chaos.

[worry]

Right after Nightchill recognizes it, she thinks about it as Forbidden/Unbroachable/the Wound and then thinks about how she and Drac and K'rul sealed away "the ancient crimes of the so-called High King." It's the same scene she realizes Kel uses Shadow to get into everything.

Or are we thinking of different parts?

This post has been edited by worry: 05 December 2017 - 04:12 AM

[Abyss]

Quote

“A new, third source of power broke upon everyone like a striking waterfall and Agayla grunted at the shock of it. Sister of Cold Nights, however, recognized the source of this new puissance being drawn by the mage and was outraged.She knew its colourings, its flavour – name it what you will – and she could not believe it. How can he touch this? She knew very well that that particular Wound had been sealed away. Forbidden. Unbroachable. She knew this because it was she and her brothers Draconus and K’rul who had sealed it away ages ago. All to heal the ancient crimes of the so-called High King. How could this one have possibly penetrated their wardings? Then she understood, and crossed her arms, almost snarling herself.Shadow. Of course. Broken, it leaks everywhere and into everything. Is this your insight, little man?

It's the ref to the wound as opposed to the warren that makes me think so.

[WhiskeyJohn]

Abyss, on 05 December 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

Quote

“A new, third source of power broke upon everyone like a striking waterfall and Agayla grunted at the shock of it. Sister of Cold Nights, however, recognized the source of this new puissance being drawn by the mage and was outraged.She knew its colourings, its flavour – name it what you will – and she could not believe it. How can he touch this? She knew very well that that particular Wound had been sealed away. Forbidden. Unbroachable. She knew this because it was she and her brothers Draconus and K’rul who had sealed it away ages ago. All to heal the ancient crimes of the so-called High King. How could this one have possibly penetrated their wardings? Then she understood, and crossed her arms, almost snarling herself.Shadow. Of course. Broken, it leaks everywhere and into everything. Is this your insight, little man?

It's the ref to the wound as opposed to the warren that makes me think so.

Could be. I was basing it on below 2 points.

Firstly, Nightchill, K'Rul and Draconus all we're present only in sealing of Kallors Realm.

Secondly, is that this Realm was not in use till Kell started building Malazan empire.

Also can Chaos actually be used? Was there any chaos mage's in the books? I can recall other Warren's being tainted by Chaos that too by Crippled God's influence...but pure chaos, I can't recall.

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJohn: 05 December 2017 - 11:31 AM

[champ]

WhiskeyJohn, on 05 December 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

Also can Chaos actually be used? Was there any chaos mage's in the books? I can recall other Warren's being tainted by Chaos that too by Crippled God's influence...but pure chaos, I can't recall.

Hairlock used it in GotM.

Yath in RotCG opens the rent to Chaos but not sure if you can class that as using it.

[Nevyn]

Abyss, on 05 December 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

Quote

"A new, third source of power broke upon everyone like a striking waterfall and Agayla grunted at the shock of it. Sister of Cold Nights, however, recognized the source of this new puissance being drawn by the mage and was outraged.She knew its colourings, its flavour – name it what you will – and she could not believe it. How can he touch this? She knew very well that that particular Wound had been sealed away. Forbidden. Unbroachable. She knew this because it was she and her brothers Draconus and K'rul who had sealed it away ages ago. All to heal the ancient crimes of the so-called High King. How could this one have possibly penetrated their wardings? Then she understood, and crossed her arms, almost snarling herself.Shadow. Of course. Broken, it leaks everywhere and into everything. Is this your insight, little man?

It's the ref to the wound as opposed to the warren that makes me think so.

Its totally the imperial warren.

The warren is essentially a wound in K'rul's body.

champ, on 05 December 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

WhiskeyJohn, on 05 December 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

Also can Chaos actually be used? Was there any chaos mage's in the books? I can recall other Warren's being tainted by Chaos that too by Crippled God's influence...but pure chaos, I can't recall.

Hairlock used it in GotM.

Yath in RotCG opens the rent to Chaos but not sure if you can class that as using it.

No one has used chaos as a warren. Hairlock was accessing and travelling parts of warrens bordering on chaos, which was a force amplifier but was also driving him mad. But I don't believe it was a chaos warren.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 05 December 2017 - 02:18 PM

[Abyss]

Thing is, we've seen Chaos used in various ways. We've never had even a hint that the Imperial Warren is a power-source the way most human and Elder warrens are. I figured it was more like the Nascent, a 'space'.

Also, shortly before Kel was absorbed by the Shadow forest and the subsequent confrontation with the hounds, Kel and Dancer had found the border of Shadow and Chaos, so we know there's a connection.

I'm not certain of any of this, it just makes more sense to me than the Impy warren being something we've never had any hint of before.

[Nevyn]

Abyss, on 05 December 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

Thing is, we've seen Chaos used in various ways. We've never had even a hint that the Imperial Warren is a power-source the way most human and Elder warrens are. I figured it was more like the Nascent, a 'space'.

Also, shortly before Kel was absorbed by the Shadow forest and the subsequent confrontation with the hounds, Kel and Dancer had found the border of Shadow and Chaos, so we know there's a connection.

I'm not certain of any of this, it just makes more sense to me than the Impy warren being something we've never had any hint of before.

But it is clear from the quoted passage that Nightchill is thinking imperial warren, since that is the thing that she and Draconus and K'rul sealed away to clean up the high king's mess.

And it gets called the imperial warren because no one was known to have found or used it before Kellanved.


It could well be that Kellanved is the only one who can draw on it for power, but teaches others in the empire how to use it for travel.

I mean, it is a warren. It is part of K'rul's "body", so I don't know why you would not be able to draw on it.

[Abyss]

Nevyn, on 05 December 2017 - 03:55 PM, said:

Abyss, on 05 December 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

Thing is, we've seen Chaos used in various ways. We've never had even a hint that the Imperial Warren is a power-source the way most human and Elder warrens are. I figured it was more like the Nascent, a 'space'.

Also, shortly before Kel was absorbed by the Shadow forest and the subsequent confrontation with the hounds, Kel and Dancer had found the border of Shadow and Chaos, so we know there's a connection.

I'm not certain of any of this, it just makes more sense to me than the Impy warren being something we've never had any hint of before.

But it is clear from the quoted passage that Nightchill is thinking imperial warren, since that is the thing that she and Draconus and K'rul sealed away to clean up the high king's mess.

And it gets called the imperial warren because no one was known to have found or used it before Kellanved.


It could well be that Kellanved is the only one who can draw on it for power, but teaches others in the empire how to use it for travel.

I mean, it is a warren. It is part of K'rul's "body", so I don't know why you would not be able to draw on it.

...or maybe he's drawing on the power they used to contain the continent, as opposed to the warren itself.