[WhiskeyJohn]

Nevyn, on 05 December 2017 - 03:55 PM, said:

It could well be that Kellanved is the only one who can draw on it for power, but teaches others in the empire how to use it for travel.

I mean, it is a warren. It is part of K'rul's "body", so I don't know why you would not be able to draw on it.

We have to assume he is unique having undergone the transformation. Maybe more powerful than Tayschrenn too. So being able to access not just Meanas and Emurlahn, but some others as well.

[WhiskeyJohn]

champ, on 05 December 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

Hairlock used it in GotM.

Yath in RotCG opens the rent to Chaos but not sure if you can class that as using it.

Hairlock travelled close to Chaos.
Yath was a Serc mage, iirc who just opened a rent into Chaos.

Only TCG can wield Chaos at least to extent of corrupting other Warren's.

Also how does the timeline work? TCG chaining happens after this book (Bk 3 maybe) since Dassem and Hood were there and we've not read about it yet. So who was influencing Tallow?

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJohn: 05 December 2017 - 07:15 PM

[worry]

I get Abyss's point but now that I know we're talking about the same passage, I'm 100% on the IW side.

Regarding TCG, there's been multiple chainings, so the timeline on that final one isn't particularly important. I'm pretty sure it happens shortly before the events of NoK anyway, so many decades after this trilogy.

[Abyss]

I'm thinking the CG was behind Tallow.

[Tiste Simeon]

WhiskeyJohn, on 05 December 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

Also how does the timeline work? TCG chaining happens after this book (Bk 3 maybe) since Dassem and Hood were there and we've not read about it yet. So who was influencing Tallow?

Was probably still the CG. The chaining you're thinking of is a much late, second chaining. The original chaining was possibly 100's of thousands of years prior to all this when the sorcerers called down what came to be the CG in order to attempt to kill Kallor.

CG has had all this time to work on his schemes, shenanigans and hijinks that we see in the MBTOF and the ME novels.

[HoosierDaddy]

How are you all forgetting Daseem ascending without a warren?

[Abyss]

For one thing Dassem had Hood's Warren, same as any Mortal Sword has access to power from their investing god.Add the general belief/awe in his skills and whatever apparently widely known tragedy gave him his own aspect.

[HoosierDaddy]

He never accessed anything, and his own warren was after ascension.

[Abyss]

H. D., on 27 December 2017 - 06:44 AM, said:

He never accessed anything, and his own warren was after ascension.

When do you mean? This book, or ever?

[WhiskeyJohn]

When did Dassem ascend btw?

[Sheve]

We dont know, he might very well have ascended when he left the cave.

[WhiskeyJohn]

Deessembrae was Dassem ascended. He did ascend without any warren iirc. Just like Whiskeyjack or even Gaones Paran, perhaps not all ascendants need a warren.

[Sheve]

deesembrae was a aspect of dassem, we done know when he got that, but he should have got that efter the chaining that lost his daughter

[qcp]

H. D., on 26 December 2017 - 11:01 PM, said:

How are you all forgetting Daseem ascending without a warren?

Stormy and Gesler too.

[Abyss]

qcp, on 10 January 2018 - 01:51 PM, said:

H. D., on 26 December 2017 - 11:01 PM, said:

How are you all forgetting Daseem ascending without a warren?

Stormy and Gesler too.

They ascended due to exposure to Kurald Thyrllan, and investment by the K'Chain Che'malle. Two major warrens, just not their own.

Dassem had exposure to Hood's Warren.

The error is in thinking that one needs their own warren to ascend. Coltaine started ascension based just on the collective belief of ten thousand refugees and the shock and awe of another hundred thousand or so enemies. The Old Guard all gained ascendant abilities, but not actual ascension, from exposure to the Deadhouse. Rake started as a 'mere' Tiste Andii, and not even a mage, and steadily gained access to two elder warrens and a whole series of 'levels' of ascension without ever becoming a god.

[qcp]

Abyss, on 10 January 2018 - 02:48 PM, said:

qcp, on 10 January 2018 - 01:51 PM, said:

H. D., on 26 December 2017 - 11:01 PM, said:

How are you all forgetting Daseem ascending without a warren?

Stormy and Gesler too.

They ascended due to exposure to Kurald Thyrllan, and investment by the K'Chain Che'malle. Two major warrens, just not their own.

Dassem had exposure to Hood's Warren.

The error is in thinking that one needs their own warren to ascend. Coltaine started ascension based just on the collective belief of ten thousand refugees and the shock and awe of another hundred thousand or so enemies. The Old Guard all gained ascendant abilities, but not actual ascension, from exposure to the Deadhouse. Rake started as a 'mere' Tiste Andii, and not even a mage, and steadily gained access to two elder warrens and a whole series of 'levels' of ascension without ever becoming a god.

You're right, but I was just pointing out that they are yet another example of non mage ascendants.I probably could have done a better job of that though...

This post has been edited by qcp: 10 January 2018 - 04:27 PM

[blackzoid]

Just a note on the whole Ascension/Godhood without a warren thing, Dassem's ascension is complicated and probably not "normal", if there is such a thing as a normal path for Ascension in the Malazan world.
His Ascendent persona, Deessembrae, may have been created by 2-3 different contributing forces:

1: Hood's Training and Dassem's position as Mortal Sword/Knight of Death
2: He was the the Malazan Army commander and the fact that the average Malazan soldiers literally loved him and would die for him if asked. Aka worship.
3: The Logros T'lan Imass's severing of Tool and avowing that Dassem was to be granted/Blessed with the name of "First Sword", as mentioned in The Crippled God.

Given that, its perhaps understandable that Dassem was able to ascend without a Warren and have this weird situation where the Man (or at least Superhuman-Man)/God seemingly exist as dual entities.

[Gorefest]

So really ascendancy is just the magic equivalent of brownie points.

[worry]

Well, I've always thought of it as leveling up...in an RPG...for some reason.

Anyway, it's all about K'rul. You 'dig' a warren into K'rul somehow, no matter how deep, you get some magic. You clog one of his/her pores, you have yourself a pocket warren. It doesn't have to be extra fancy, especially big, or even a direct line to the heart, since presumably K'rul has a circulatory system as well. Even if it's a manifestation of a metaphor by now.

[rant]

My taxonomy RE: Gods/Ascendants/Power has revolved around desire/willingness.

Gesler/Stormer had power but no desire....as such they approached ascendancy but did not achieve it.


Rake had the desire ( at some point) to ascend, and subsequent power, but was not willing to accept the worship (belief) of his followers ( even if they still worshiped him).

Nefararias Bredd Breed created from belief, but there was no power or opportunity for ascending....but I bet eventually he or someone else could become the god of the marines.

Kel/Dancer found a pretty early opportunity (in their individual timelines) to power and ascending...but waited until they had armies (and presumably Malazan Empire citizens) believing etc. in them....to ensure 'godhood'.
------Further, Cotillion grasped the title of Patron of assassins....probably due to some assassins inquiring/thanking an unnamed patron prior/following their jobs....establishing a "psychic space" for a 'patron'.

Dassem (originating entity for two other entities) is 'unique':
Traveller: .Unnaturally talented swordsman who was hood trained after/during death, eventually leading to his being named first sword of an empire........supported by the t'lan imass. May or may not accept ascension....rejects godhood.......just wants revenge, and will use any tool available to achieve it
Dessembrae: A human (who adored by armies/ empires) that was betrayed by a sworn god (undermining the basic relationship between god and follower.....and as such the underlying trust between follower and god). Is worshipped as an acknowledgement of the tragedy inherent in the human condition (I.E. People believe/accept that tragedy exists and is a part of the human experience.....therefore there is 'psychic space' for a god here. Accepts godhood



Ultimately I still believe these distinctions are kind of moot....... a nuke is a nuke, regardless of the carriage.

This post has been edited by rant: 13 January 2018 - 06:40 AM