[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Alternative Goose, on 10 January 2018 - 06:14 AM, said:

Oh boy, just read a danish article on the James Franco accusations. Whooo, he's probably lucky that shit didn't get public exposure a week prior.

Why didn't it? Why wait until after?

[QuickTidal]

I mean...the guy sent dick pics to an underage girl over text..is anyone actually surprised that Franco has been accused? I'm surprised it took this long.

[Abyss]

Franco, unsurprising.

Stan Lee... i look at the source and the scant details and remain sceptical. it wouldn't blow my mind, but this reads a lot more like Ryan Seacrest than James Franco.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 10 January 2018 - 02:40 PM, said:

Franco, unsurprising.

Stan Lee... i look at the source and the scant details and remain sceptical. it wouldn't blow my mind, but this reads a lot more like Ryan Seacrest than James Franco.

And with regards to Stan Lee, if true, you REALLY have to take into account his age. And that's not a copout either. My wife works with geriatrics...late in life, and in early stages of ANY kind of dementia (even before diagnoses), people lose any moral filter they had and will do very out of character things. If this were some old accusation about him, then I might find it holds more water....but as a late stage/recent accusation...the bastard is like 95 and ALMOST CERTAINLY experiencing from SOME kind of dementia....and as a result, this will be on that as far as I'm concerned.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 10 January 2018 - 02:45 PM

[Nevyn]

Malankazooie, on 19 December 2017 - 10:03 PM, said:

Abyss, on 19 December 2017 - 08:15 PM, said:

Malankazooie, on 19 December 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

...
This thing is like the energizer bunny now. It just keeps going and going and going .....

Music industry still screamingly silent.

And my dear Consey. Not a peep thrown his direction. Suck it Conan haters! How's that for "he makes me physically ill" drama? How do you like them apples?

Preemptive Counterstrike?

[Malankazooie]

A tweet from 2014? Doubtful. The Creeper is a Minecraft thing too, btw.

No accusations against my Consey, nor will there ever be. So suck it haters!

#HaveFunAndSmile

[worry]

Dan Harmon gave a full-throated apology to Megan Ganz on his podcast, for all the harm he did her professionally and personally, and she accepted his apology.
Details here (including link/timestamp of apology): https://twitter.com/...373399929978881

It's like 7-8 minutes long and worth listening to in full, imo.

[QuickTidal]

Dan Harmon is a drunken POS from what I hear. Not surprised.

[Slow Ben]

Aziz Ansari.

https://screenrant.c...onduct-assault/

[Aptorian]

This is the actual article: https://babe.net/201...iz-ansari-28355

I think that story is a perfect example of mixed messages and two people who had different ideas about what a date and "come back to my place" means. Even as she describes how uncomfortable and not into it she was, she also describes how she sort went along with it. Which is an awful clusterfuck of a date but I don't read that story as a "me too" issue, nor sexual assault or other forms of sexual misconduct. More a case of Ansari being clumsy and too horny to really take stock of the situation, while she was both saying no and yes implicitly and explicitly several times. Which is a pretty typical story really, the question becomes whether you read something malicious into this, which from the woman's own account I don't see. It was two people who didn't know each other well enough to read each other.

[amphibian]

Apt. What the hell.

The woman Grace did all that, said all that, exposed all of that, and you sit there and don't believe her.

That's wrong.

[Aptorian]

No, at no point in my reply did I state that I did not believe her. Not sure where you got that from.

What she described was probably one of the most common situations that CAN lead to rape. A woman and a man go on a date or visit one another in a somewhat romantic/flirtatious situation. One thing leads to another and the woman gets cold feet (or the man does) but the man/woman at that point just wants sex. Which quickly becomes a very bad situation.

But that is not the scenario this woman, Grace, describes.

She herself, very fairly in my opinion, conveys her understanding of Ansari's behavior and motivation. He was clearly looking for a fun time with a woman he believed was in to him. In his line of business and social circles, hooking up with a woman is probably quite easy. So, when he went through the traditional "date, take her back to your place, sex" routine, he thought she was on the same wave length. From Grace's description, she thinks he was moving way too fast, and wasn't into it, but she still engages with him. She kisses him, performs oral sex on him, more than once... all the while being pretty uncomfortable about the whole thing and yes, he was clearly pressuring her. At which point she should have left because at that point obviously Ansari was only thinking about sex.

That's not a rational "hey sure, let's just do it some other time" scenario. Any man or woman knows that when you're really turned on, there's really only one thing on your mind. You'd fucking chew through concrete to get release when the hormones are coursing through your body. This is one of those "No means no, but are you sure you don't mean yes, because you sort of seem like you might be into this, and I sure as hell know I am" things that doesn't end well for anybody.

Like I stated on the other page, in her story Ansari, to me, comes off as being a bumbling, clumsy, single minded idiot. But from her own understanding and from the messages the exchanged afterwards, clearly Ansari did not mean anything untoward. It was mixed messages. Bad mixed messages. Serious, very large excuse and never go on a date again mixed messages but nothing criminal the way I read that story.

This post has been edited by Alternative Goose: 14 January 2018 - 06:01 PM

[Vengeance]

Alternative Goose, on 14 January 2018 - 05:55 PM, said:

No, at no point in my reply did I state that I did not believe her. Not sure where you got that from.

What she described was probably one of the most common situations that CAN lead to rape. A woman and a man go on a date or visit one another in a somewhat romantic/flirtatious situation. One thing leads to another and the woman gets cold feet (or the man does) but the man/woman at that point just wants sex. Which quickly becomes a very bad situation.

But that is not the scenario this woman, Grace, describes.

She herself, very fairly in my opinion, conveys her understanding of Ansari's behavior and motivation. He was clearly looking for a fun time with a woman he believed was in to him. In his line of business and social circles, hooking up with a woman is probably quite easy. So, when he went through the traditional "date, take her back to your place, sex" routine, he thought she was on the same wave length. From Grace's description, she thinks he was moving way too fast, and wasn't into it, but she still engages with him. She kisses him, performs oral sex on him, more than once... all the while being pretty uncomfortable about the whole thing and yes, he was clearly pressuring her. At which point she should have left because at that point obviously Ansari was only thinking about sex.

That's not a rational "hey sure, let's just do it some other time" scenario. Any man or woman knows that when you're really turned on, there's really only one thing on your mind. You'd fucking chew through concrete to get release when the hormones are coursing through your body. This is one of those "No means no, but are you sure you don't mean yes, because you sort of seem like you might be into this, and I sure as hell know I am" things that doesn't end well for anybody.

Like I stated on the other page, in her story Ansari, to me, comes off as being a bumbling, clumsy, single minded idiot. But from her own understanding and from the messages the exchanged afterwards, clearly Ansari did not mean anything untoward. It was mixed messages. Bad mixed messages. Serious, very large excuse and never go on a date again mixed messages but nothing criminal the way I read that story.

I agree with apt I felt like her story was full of mixed messages. I also thought that a lot of what she was describing was a dislike of his game. I am not victim blaming or saying that what she felt wasn't justified. I think of it is generational. For instance when I was dating (a long time ago) if there wasn't a definite no and someone was going along with doing stuff then it was an implied yes. You didn't have to have a verbal yes. I think that people in their 20s now have a verbal yes. I don't think that what Ansari was doing was assault it definatly wasn't rape. It was a situation where a definite no wasn't given and things were happening. If you don't want to do something you have to say no and not do shit. Expecting someone to read noverbal clues in the heat of the moment when you are doing stuff isn't going to work.

[Nevyn]

Yeah, the main issue of the Ansari thing, as fairly conveyed by the victim, is she was reliably counting on him to pick up cues instead of flat out saying no. To the point where she was going along with some of it, even after the bathroom break. I mean, his behaviour certainly isn't the best, but seriously, spell it out for a guy.

Also, this story is absent the power/extortive element of most me too stories. Voluntary date, no working relationship, and I didn't see any efforts to make her feel she could not leave. Just behaviour that turned her off, and her expecting him to notice she wasn't into things even when she was going along.

[Nevyn]

Stunt coordinator molested12 year old Dushku on set of True Lies

[amphibian]

The big quote is this one:

Quote

Throughout the course of her short time in the apartment, she says she used verbal and non-verbal cues to indicate how uncomfortable and distressed she was. “Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points,” she said. “I stopped moving my lips and turned cold.”

Whether Ansari didn’t notice Grace’s reticence or knowingly ignored it is impossible for her to say. “I know I was physically giving off cues that I wasn’t interested. I don’t think that was noticed at all, or if it was, it was ignored.”

The context is that Aziz is a somewhat well known 33 year old at the time celebrity with actual power in the entertainment industry. He might not be a power player on the same level as a more well known comedian/actor, but he does have power. She's a 22 year old at the time photographer with basically zilch in terms of power or sway. They actually like each other - sparks flew in their interactions earlier.

Her going along with his repeated suggestions and physical repositioning of her doesn't exactly rise to the level of criminal sexual assault - but what he did is wrong. Her tears immediately after exiting the apartment and the text saying it was wrong to him and the subsequent telling of the story to many people (and now the public) show that she really does believe this night was full of wrongness.

She probably really did like him and she describes the physical escalation as being "too fast", rather than "wholly unwanted". That's also a kind of wrong action. I can understand really liking someone, especially someone who's made a career out of being the "nice guy who actually understands how hard it is to be a woman", and not wanting to reject them outright, alongside there being a little bit of professional context. Aziz did shitty things and blew past the woman's objections again and again.

Yeah, it'd be great if she clearly and unequivocally said "No" and/or left at certain parts. But life is messier than that. She's allowed to have contradictory responses and reactions and he is supposed to be aware of them and respect them. I don't think this was one of those "Baby it's cold outside" type things where the lady is protesting because of society's expectations of her and the guy is reassuring her that it's ok and he'll treat her right. I think she's very clearly saying this wasn't right - although she doesn't say it was sexual assault - and that we should be listening to her.

I also am not trying to drive a punishment onto Aziz. I'm saying that talking about this like a simple crossed wires situation is not ok.

[Nevyn]

Your own big quote has the victim saying she doesn't think Ansari noticed her cues at all.

Now you tell me, it is reasonable in a culture that expects men to pursue and initiate for the expectation to be that they have to catch hints on when to stop. You said life is messy, but that works both ways. Sometimes a girl feels too awkward to just say stop. Sometimes a guy is caught up in the moment and has no earthly clue that the girl pulling back wants everything to stop and won't say so. I can see why she found some of his moves a turnoff, and I think he probably tried to reinitiate too often when backed off. But I also think, at the point where you've rejected sex and had a bathroom break o ater yourself, maybe say no to a blow job on the couch. Because among other things, I think when you show a willingness to do that, there is a serious risk that further signals of discomfort could be taken as playfulness or coyness.

I also got no sense anywhere that she went along out of concern for her career, found him to be powerful, or felt menaced. Nor that a mid 30s comedian would ever consider himself powerful over a person he doesn't even work with.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 14 January 2018 - 09:01 PM

[Aptorian]

I completely agree with Nevyn. There's a certain level of rationality and level headedness that isn't always possible or likely in the middle of a sexual encounter. What's expected? What's too agressive? Is somebody supposed to take charge? This story clearly represents a bad outcome but considering how overly complicated our mating rituals can become things sometimes just end up bad. That doesn't always have to be related to social contracts and inter personnel working relationships.

I'd hate for us to all have to sign Swedish contracts before we shake hands or make eye contact.

This post has been edited by Alternative Goose: 14 January 2018 - 09:15 PM

[Mezla PigDog]

Alternative Goose, on 14 January 2018 - 09:10 PM, said:

I completely agree with Nevyn. There's a certain level of rationality and level headedness that isn't always possible or likely in the middle of a sexual encounter. What's expected? What's too agressive? Is somebody supposed to take charge? This story clearly represents a bad outcome but considering how overly complicated our mating rituals can become things sometimes just end up bad. That doesn't always have to be related to social contracts and inter personnel working relationships.

I'd hate for us to all have to sign Swedish contracts before we shake hands or make eye contact.

I read that article and all I think is why the fuck didn't she just leave. You do have to take into account the world that women grow up in though. Why do most of us feel like it's a huge deal to unequivocally tell a man we aren't interested in him or don't want to have sex even though we went into his apartment after a date? It's drummed into us that we have to be polite and not shake the male ego. We're conditioned to let men down gently and often feel unable to just come out and say what we think. It's a similar issue that makes us unable to ask for pay rises!

[worry]

I think that's a worthwhile point, but I'm also tending to side with Amph on this one. Aziz's behavior is clearly coercive, even if there are elements of miscommunication happening at the same time. Part of it is him being a successful comedian, part of it is him being a guy, both of which come with ingrained expectations of entitlement (and a society that reinforces and even, historically at least, rewards those feelings). So like, should he go to prison? Probably not, I guess, but it's not likely to come to that. That's not really the point though.

His behavior was scuzzy and awful and wrong. I mean, he gave this woman the worst night of her life. If we're to give him the benefit of the doubt, he gave her the worst night of her life and was entirely clueless about it in the moment. What does that say about him? Nothing good. So life is messy, it's not the clearest cut case of anything criminal, and Grace herself might consider it 'sexual assault' without necessarily caring if Aziz faces legal repercussions. But it should be a wake-up call. It'd be a good opportunity for him to not get defensive and start getting reaaaalllly self-reflective. As should men in general. The women in his orbit, now or in the future, can at least take the information Grace provided into consideration when making decisions about him. How and why is it possible for this man to give this woman the worst night of her life and to think nothing of it? To not even notice?

P.S. This whole notion of hormones is rubbish. Unless you have a genuine imbalance preventing you from knowing right from wrong, there is no situation in which your 'hormones' being up or the heat of the moment excuses bad behavior, period. If you're hot and she's cold and you don't notice, wth are you doing? Frankly that's part of the mindset that's gotta change, like, permanently.

This post has been edited by worry: 14 January 2018 - 10:20 PM