[Tsundoku]

 Alternative Goose, on 04 March 2018 - 05:55 AM, said:

... expectations of some kind of magnanimous display of solidarity shouldn't really be expected ...

Uh ... Engelsk er dit andet sprog?

But I think I get your gist, and agree.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 04 March 2018 - 06:23 AM

[Aptorian]

It's very early in the morning here. Coherent sentences are not a given.

[Tsundoku]

 Alternative Goose, on 04 March 2018 - 06:26 AM, said:

It's very early in the morning here. Coherent sentences are not a given.

Not even at the best of times.

[Abyss]

Fish!
Chimney!
The Magna Carta of 1215!

[Tiste Simeon]

 Abyss, on 04 March 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

Fish!
Chimney!
The Magna Carta of 1215!

Name three games Harvey Weinstein forced his victims to play!

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

More details on Sherman Alexie:

https://www.npr.org/...o-on-the-record


What's described is bad but not as bad as I was expecting. Seems he wasn't in direct positions of institutional power over them, and he didn't commit sexual assault. He was pushy but didn't try to wear them down with repeated attempts (at least, after the second). Worth apologizing for, as he did, and changing his behavior in the future, but eliminating his name from organizations et cetera and boycotting his work don't seem justified by these particular allegations... unless there are worse to come.

[worry]

I dunno. Finding out he's a 'regular' law-abiding scumbag instead of a law-breaking scumbag doesn't really endear me to reading more of his work. I have Indian Killer and Diary of a Part-Time Indian on my shelf right now -- and liked both a lot -- but to be frank it feels embarrassing now. If I had a friend who treated women that way I'd stop being friends with them...and I owe this guy a lot less consideration than that. I get what you're saying though about changing his behavior...maybe it'll be a turning point for him, and I'd hope for that...but I mean, accept an apology sure but that doesn't mean you don't want to see the work first before you start trusting them again.

[amphibian]

Alexie is someone whose writing I profoundly enjoyed. It's now tainted to me because he knew what he was doing was not ok and he still did it. He repeatedly did bad things to women - particularly Native women - who he had power and position over. I am heartbroken that he continually chose to do that to at least a dozen women over the years. He had an awful early life, but he fought past those demons and should have fought past these.

I've learned that a true apology has several parts to it - clearly saying that you are sorry, stating accurately how you hurt the other, empathizing with the pain they feel, and asking how you can make reparations (then doing that). We don't hold people often to all of these elements and we should do it more.

Alexie (and many others) has not done this. I don't think he's changed yet nor has he interacted well with those who've gone public.

Dan Harmon on the other hand did do an actual apology.

[QuickTidal]

It's weird that these old (proven false) allegations against Gary Oldman have resurfaced and are being taken at face value by the court of public opinion...most of whom do ABSOLUTELY no research into the 17-year old allegations to find out what actually was the result.

Glad that Oldman's kid is speaking out against them.

http://ew.com/movies...use-allegation/

I mean especially because the alleged incident she swore up and down happened in front of the kids...who are saying it never happened, and she's lying.

But even back then, this woman alleges Oldman hit her with a phone in front of the kids who were crying...they go to court and everything that comes out about her (a relapsed drug addict with mental health issues) causes the judges to not only side with Oldman, but award him FULL custody of his kids (courts often try to find any avenue to put the kids with mom). The courts and kids say that the evidence does not support her claim...and yet here she is, trying to piggyback onto the MeToo/TimesUp movement and slander her ex with these allegations that her own kids say she made up in a drug-addled rage.

This kind of thing really muddies the waters of the movement because of how quick the court of public opinion is to castrate anyone famous who is accused regardless of facts. I've known about the Oldman allegations being entirely proven false for years, but somehow this woman was able to dredge them up and get people to once again buy her story.

For thos interested, the full text of Gulliver's letter about it:

Spoiler

To whom it may concern,

My name is Gulliver Oldman, and I am the son of Gary Oldman, the actor.

It has been troubling and painful to see that these false allegations against my father being written about again, especially after this was all settled years ago. There is good reason that these specific articles and accusations subsided years ago.

In my eyes it is disgusting that so called “journalists” have seen fit to spread and perpetuate the lie.

I have grown up in the world we are accustomed to now, where people are guilty until proven innocent. It’s a shame to see that “clickbait journalism” or judgement by headline, is designed to make one jump to conclusions without receiving the full range of fact that may be detailed in a piece, whether it be online or otherwise.

In the case of my father, there is only innocence. There never has been any guilt.

The reality is confused in excerpts, and published half truths from years ago.

Saddly, heartbreakingly, all of this is revisited in a very recent interview of my mother by a reporter at the Daily Mail — despite all of this having been thrown away and discredited as false years ago.

For me to write this letter is direct proof of this. Custody of children is not given to a wife beater, and under most circumstances, hardly ever a man. My having lived, full time with my father should be in itself, proof enough.

My Father is my one and true guiding light. My only hero. He is the man I aspire one day to become. If I could only become even half as great and half as pure. I was granted the good graces of his fatherhood as a child to be raised by him and only him. For that I am eternally grateful every hour of every day. I owe him the world and I owe him my life.

If it appears that publicly speaking ill of my mother something I am either fond of, or accustomed to, that is not the case. She has been a sad and very troubled person most of her life. Yes, she brought me into this world. She didn’t however, teach me how to be a part of it.

This lie, all of her lies, things she has been perpetuating and living in as “her truth” — all of this has brought about so much pain and hardship for my father and for all of us, his family united.

My brother and I both have played the role of pawn on numerous occasions throughout our lives in a big game our mother has been desperately trying to play against our father. On all such occasions, the only retort my father has had is the truth. Always, and thankfully so, the truth is on his side.

Being a full supporter of this movement, I can see how coming out with a statement to combat an allegation must look. However, I was there at the time of the “incident,” so I’d like to make this radiantly clear: it didn’t happen. Anyone who says it did is lying.

To go deeper — of my own admission and my own decision, I chose to stop speaking with my mother seven years ago at the age of thirteen. I was old enough to see that holding on to a relationship with her would damage my future, so stepping away for some time would be the only thing I saw fit.

I want only to protect my father’s character, as a person and as an actor. I know he is a wonderfully kind man, gifted beyond belief, a man who wouldn’t trade anything for the love and happiness of his family. This torment should have ended 16 years ago. In such a momentous year for his career, my father should finally be able to enjoy himself. I hope that we can please make that a possibility.

The only way to achieve that is to stop repeating, stop sharing, and stop believing the lies.

Thank you,

Gulliver Oldman

Glad the son is speaking out against his mother's spurious allegations to defend his dad. It's nice to know that this crap simply isn't true, and maybe now the clickbait media can stop buzzing about it in articles about "giving abusers awards".

Now, if they want to talk about Kobe Bryant...then you have some ground to stand on....he did that shit.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 07 March 2018 - 02:51 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Katy Perry?....

https://www.advocate...uring-era-metoo

[Aptorian]

Don't be silly, Azath. We're living in a misogynist patriarchy. If any woman looks guilty it is merely the fault of the women being indoctrinated to act like they are a sexual creature (gross!). Our society's expectations forced her to act this way. In fact, those men she kissed are practically rapists for allowing her to use them that way. They enabled her! How can they kiss!?

Or... Maybe none of it really matters. It's a fake talent reality show. They're all terrible people.

EDIT: My hatred of reality shows may slightly be clouding my opinion.

This post has been edited by Alternative Goose: 16 March 2018 - 06:06 AM

[QuickTidal]

 Azath Vitr (D, on 16 March 2018 - 05:12 AM, said:

Katy Perry?....

https://www.advocate...uring-era-metoo

This story is fucking ludicrous. The guy says he's never been kissed, she tells him to come close, and he says "on the cheek?" and goes in to kiss her on the cheek, and she turns and rewards him with the lip peck instead.

Nothing about that is harassment. Nothing. He willingly goes to kiss her...cheek or lips doesn't matter.

To me this was Katy Perry being sweet to a fan, and giving an opportunity for a bit of a thrill. She's this type of person, and always has been.

Anyone staying different or comparing this to the terrible harassment that IS happening in the industry, is an asshole seeking a clickbait headline.

Perry meant no harm, and the kid has said he didn't have a problem with it. Case closed. Nothing to see here.

My wife got a photo with Luke Perry two years back, and she quietly asked if she could put her arm around him, and he did one better and gave her a big squishy hug and a cheek kiss. She was super happy. This is that.

[Khellendros]

 QuickTidal, on 16 March 2018 - 01:14 PM, said:

 Azath Vitr (D, on 16 March 2018 - 05:12 AM, said:

Katy Perry?....

https://www.advocate...uring-era-metoo

This story is fucking ludicrous. The guy says he's never been kissed, she tells him to come close, and he says "on the cheek?" and goes in to kiss her on the cheek, and she turns and rewards him with the lip peck instead.

Nothing about that is harassment. Nothing. He willingly goes to kiss her...cheek or lips doesn't matter.

To me this was Katy Perry being sweet to a fan, and giving an opportunity for a bit of a thrill. She's this type of person, and always has been.

Anyone staying different or comparing this to the terrible harassment that IS happening in the industry, is an asshole seeking a clickbait headline.

Perry meant no harm, and the kid has said he didn't have a problem with it. Case closed. Nothing to see here.

My wife got a photo with Luke Perry two years back, and she quietly asked if she could put her arm around him, and he did one better and gave her a big squishy hug and a cheek kiss. She was super happy. This is that.

Mhmm, I think it's a bit more debatable than that. Even if the kid doesn't ultimately think it amounts to harassment, it doesn't make it automatically appropriate. For one, the kid stated that he hoped his first actual kiss would be from his first girlfriend (he comes from a conservative background), so that immediately would suggest he did not want what happened to happen. Two, she was in a position of power and authority over him when it happened, just before he had to perform and be judged. Three, we could pull out the old 'what if the genders were switched' argument - tired, yes, but not necessarily irrelevant: 33-year old man in position of authority pretends he's going to give a 19-year old girl a peck on the cheek, instead kisses her full on the lips?

I agree with you that clearly she meant no harm. But in itself that doesn't necessarily make an action appropriate given the context of the guy's background and immediate situation.

[Khellendros]

 QuickTidal, on 07 March 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

It's weird that these old (proven false) allegations against Gary Oldman have resurfaced and are being taken at face value by the court of public opinion...most of whom do ABSOLUTELY no research into the 17-year old allegations to find out what actually was the result.

Glad that Oldman's kid is speaking out against them.

http://ew.com/movies...use-allegation/

I mean especially because the alleged incident she swore up and down happened in front of the kids...who are saying it never happened, and she's lying.

But even back then, this woman alleges Oldman hit her with a phone in front of the kids who were crying...they go to court and everything that comes out about her (a relapsed drug addict with mental health issues) causes the judges to not only side with Oldman, but award him FULL custody of his kids (courts often try to find any avenue to put the kids with mom). The courts and kids say that the evidence does not support her claim...and yet here she is, trying to piggyback onto the MeToo/TimesUp movement and slander her ex with these allegations that her own kids say she made up in a drug-addled rage.

This kind of thing really muddies the waters of the movement because of how quick the court of public opinion is to castrate anyone famous who is accused regardless of facts. I've known about the Oldman allegations being entirely proven false for years, but somehow this woman was able to dredge them up and get people to once again buy her story.

For thos interested, the full text of Gulliver's letter about it:

Spoiler

To whom it may concern,

My name is Gulliver Oldman, and I am the son of Gary Oldman, the actor.

It has been troubling and painful to see that these false allegations against my father being written about again, especially after this was all settled years ago. There is good reason that these specific articles and accusations subsided years ago.

In my eyes it is disgusting that so called “journalists” have seen fit to spread and perpetuate the lie.

I have grown up in the world we are accustomed to now, where people are guilty until proven innocent. It’s a shame to see that “clickbait journalism” or judgement by headline, is designed to make one jump to conclusions without receiving the full range of fact that may be detailed in a piece, whether it be online or otherwise.

In the case of my father, there is only innocence. There never has been any guilt.

The reality is confused in excerpts, and published half truths from years ago.

Saddly, heartbreakingly, all of this is revisited in a very recent interview of my mother by a reporter at the Daily Mail — despite all of this having been thrown away and discredited as false years ago.

For me to write this letter is direct proof of this. Custody of children is not given to a wife beater, and under most circumstances, hardly ever a man. My having lived, full time with my father should be in itself, proof enough.

My Father is my one and true guiding light. My only hero. He is the man I aspire one day to become. If I could only become even half as great and half as pure. I was granted the good graces of his fatherhood as a child to be raised by him and only him. For that I am eternally grateful every hour of every day. I owe him the world and I owe him my life.

If it appears that publicly speaking ill of my mother something I am either fond of, or accustomed to, that is not the case. She has been a sad and very troubled person most of her life. Yes, she brought me into this world. She didn’t however, teach me how to be a part of it.

This lie, all of her lies, things she has been perpetuating and living in as “her truth” — all of this has brought about so much pain and hardship for my father and for all of us, his family united.

My brother and I both have played the role of pawn on numerous occasions throughout our lives in a big game our mother has been desperately trying to play against our father. On all such occasions, the only retort my father has had is the truth. Always, and thankfully so, the truth is on his side.

Being a full supporter of this movement, I can see how coming out with a statement to combat an allegation must look. However, I was there at the time of the “incident,” so I’d like to make this radiantly clear: it didn’t happen. Anyone who says it did is lying.

To go deeper — of my own admission and my own decision, I chose to stop speaking with my mother seven years ago at the age of thirteen. I was old enough to see that holding on to a relationship with her would damage my future, so stepping away for some time would be the only thing I saw fit.

I want only to protect my father’s character, as a person and as an actor. I know he is a wonderfully kind man, gifted beyond belief, a man who wouldn’t trade anything for the love and happiness of his family. This torment should have ended 16 years ago. In such a momentous year for his career, my father should finally be able to enjoy himself. I hope that we can please make that a possibility.

The only way to achieve that is to stop repeating, stop sharing, and stop believing the lies.

Thank you,

Gulliver Oldman

Glad the son is speaking out against his mother's spurious allegations to defend his dad. It's nice to know that this crap simply isn't true, and maybe now the clickbait media can stop buzzing about it in articles about "giving abusers awards".

Now, if they want to talk about Kobe Bryant...then you have some ground to stand on....he did that shit.

Not questioning any of the conclusions, but one thing that confused me: the son said he was there, saw the incident, and can categorically state there was no violence. But he would have been what, three years old at the time? How much does one remember at that age? Especially if the thing being remembered is, uh, nothing happening?

[Nevyn]

 Khellendros, on 16 March 2018 - 01:55 PM, said:

Not questioning any of the conclusions, but one thing that confused me: the son said he was there, saw the incident, and can categorically state there was no violence. But he would have been what, three years old at the time? How much does one remember at that age? Especially if the thing being remembered is, uh, nothing happening?

Fair point, but

1) these matters were addressed in court in a custody hearing, and Oldman got custody, which would never happen if the judges even thought it MIGHT be true

and

2) The boys were then raised by Oldman. How many major physical abusers do you know of who hit the wife with the phone but then never touch the kids for 17 years after she's gone?

[QuickTidal]

 Khellendros, on 16 March 2018 - 01:55 PM, said:

Not questioning any of the conclusions, but one thing that confused me: the son said he was there, saw the incident, and can categorically state there was no violence. But he would have been what, three years old at the time? How much does one remember at that age? Especially if the thing being remembered is, uh, nothing happening?

I think in the end what really solidified the result was less the kids memory, and more that the wife as proven to be an unrecovered drug addict who had constructed many false narratives that were proven out as lies. I recall hearing that the judge even essentially coaxed out of her that she was pretty much lying, but not in so many words.

As to what the kid recalls from age 3. You'd be surprised. It wholly depends on the individual mind you, and the level of recall, but that IS the age when you start to settle in long term memories.

I was only 3 when my grandpa died, and I VIVIDLY remember watching Saturday morning cartoons with him for weeks.

That was a mild activity....if some big knockdown fight occurred in front of you, that would affect you and scar you...even at age 3.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 16 March 2018 - 02:29 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

 Alternative Goose, on 16 March 2018 - 06:01 AM, said:

Don't be silly, Azath. We're living in a misogynist patriarchy. If any woman looks guilty it is merely the fault of the women being indoctrinated to act like they are a sexual creature (gross!). Our society's expectations forced her to act this way. In fact, those men she kissed are practically rapists for allowing her to use them that way. They enabled her! How can they kiss!?

Or... Maybe none of it really matters. It's a fake talent reality show. They're all terrible people.

EDIT: My hatred of reality shows may slightly be clouding my opinion.

She should have worn her geisha outfit and twerked to make this clearer.

 QuickTidal, on 16 March 2018 - 01:14 PM, said:

This story is fucking ludicrous. The guy says he's never been kissed, she tells him to come close, and he says "on the cheek?" and goes in to kiss her on the cheek, and she turns and rewards him with the lip peck instead.

Nothing about that is harassment. Nothing. He willingly goes to kiss her...cheek or lips doesn't matter.

To me this was Katy Perry being sweet to a fan, and giving an opportunity for a bit of a thrill. She's this type of person, and always has been.

Anyone staying different or comparing this to the terrible harassment that IS happening in the industry, is an asshole seeking a clickbait headline.

Perry meant no harm, and the kid has said he didn't have a problem with it. Case closed. Nothing to see here.

My wife got a photo with Luke Perry two years back, and she quietly asked if she could put her arm around him, and he did one better and gave her a big squishy hug and a cheek kiss. She was super happy. This is that.

He's said he would not have consented to a kiss on the lips. Which is also obvious from the video. She tricked him into a nonconsensual kiss---using a Donald Trump move.

A kiss on the cheek is nonsexual---something you might do with your grandmother. A kiss on the lips---for him, and for most adults in the United States---is sexual.

And consenting to one act doesn't mean you consent to another. For example, the Columbia student who was carrying a mattress everywhere said she had consented to sex but not anal.

Where does it end? Oh, you're a virgin? You've never been pegged before? Time to get out my straps and strap-ons... you can sing while I'm doing it, then we'll determine whether you advance to the next round and the chance to win a lucrative contract.

He was so triggered he fell down. If he were really religious, he could be traumatized for life by the belief that he's going to hell (so truly traumatized for all eternity...).

Perhaps it's sexual harassment in about the same way that Bruno Mars is a cultural appropriator. Or a company marketing pineapple kimchi in the United States is committing harmful cultural appropriation (even though the CEO is Korean-American...). http://archive.is/JQHiC

OTOH it does conjure a bit of lingering doubt about whether some of the sexual harassment panic is attributable to prudishness and a pseudoscientific mix of empirically false beliefs and harmful self-fulfilling prophecies about psychological trauma.

Wasn't Franco also 'helping' his date (and future SO) get past her prudishness about giving blowjobs in public?

Was the only substantive harm from Louis C.K. masturbating in front of people (aside from at work) an affront to their irrational prudishness? They didn't report being or feeling physically threatened. Granted, doing it at work crossed the line---but, minus the patriarchy, the same basic arguments apply to what Katy Perry did. And while a kiss on the lips may seem less extreme than masturbation, it's more physically invasive, and she did it nonconsensually. If she made a habit of ordering her coworkers to make out with her (outside of contractually designated scenes)....

[worry]

This one has been a long time coming (like, decades), but teensploitation artist & all around gross guy Dan Schneider finally got axed from Nickelodeon. This dude has -- in my opinion -- damaged people and ruined lives and it's crazy that it took this long.

https://www.huffingt...4b04a59a31205e1

[QuickTidal]

Also, he was on HEAD OF THE CLASS!?

[worry]

Another Nickelodeon alum, this one someone I actually admired: John K (Kricfalusi), creator of Ren & Stimpy. Horrifying stuff.

https://www.buzzfeed...ge-sexual-abuse