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Karsa coming first?

#41 User is offline   Not a dog THE dog 

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 08:21 AM

My perspective is that KT was too soon, maybe mos MBF fans were a bit burnt out after reading the main series. After all SE himself said it as such a massive task and one that left a shadow over everything else. I have tried to read or reread other fantasy and epic fantasy after the main series. But all i keep thinking is 'but this is no MBF'. From Wheel of Time, to LotR (all Tolk universe) to, Ursula le Guin, still nothing cuts it like MBF.. This feeling extended to KT and all ICE books (apart from DL).

It was almost like getting to the top of a mountain with MBF, then realising there is another tricky not as enjoyable section to go but that its clouded over so you only get glimpses of the view. So in short, maybe sales didn't pick up FoD because of fatigue but also did not then pick up on FoL due to style.

I am very excited about the Karsa series though, as long as:

he continues his character development arc after his humbling on witnessing Rake and Daseem fight
realises that he has to care for his daughters and that rape is BAD (never never understood why people liked early Karsa when he did so much killing and raping)
tries to make things even in the world ie brings down slavers and punches gods in the face
explore fall out from main series
ICE's brief description of Karsa in OST is completely ignored
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#42 User is offline   Adhara 

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 09:07 AM

Well, people like Karsa because we can tell apart reality from fiction. Behaviours we reject in real life are hailed in fiction because fiction is the field when we play our repressed instincts.
Having said that, I have to state I've hated the early Karsa. I'm a woman; no explanation needed.
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#43 User is offline   Not a dog THE dog 

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 12:09 PM

Yea, I love fantasy and particularly high fantasy for the escapism. In SE, there is an author who makes readers feel for the characters much more than others. A skill in writing but also metal scope to have such a large world. In terms of gravitating towards characters we admire, or 'want to be a little bit like' etc In the real world, we need more people like, Fiddler, Trull and Tavore I think.
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#44 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 02:04 PM

View PostSalt-Man Z, on 26 October 2017 - 05:58 PM, said:

All the talk about bleakness and style change and whatnot doesn't really explain what happened, though. It wasn't a case of everyone trying out FoD, deciding they didn't like it, and bailing on the trilogy. As SE says, FoD itself bombed, meaning people didn't buy it to begin with. Unless it was the previews or bad word-of-mouth that kept sales of FoD down, it doesn't seem like the writing itself is to blame.

I can't help but wonder if the weirdly-abstract/generic cover art was at fault somehow? Like, the early Tor "cheesy fantasy" covers to the later Steve Stone "the back of a generic fantasy dude" ones at least gave some flavor while screaming "epic fantasy" to prospective readers. The Kharkanas covers very much do not.


In addition to the aforementioned cover art and preamble issues with FoD, I'll give another reason why FoD might have had tough initial sales: that damn cover blurb saying it "should appeal to fans of Game of Thrones". That might pull in some readers, and might have been more effective 4 or 8 years earlier, but at the time of FoD's release I think it could turn away a lot of people. For those unfamiliar with MBotF it makes FoD look like a weak product that the publisher can only sell by trying to compare to GoT. For those who are familiar wit the series, it's a right-hand turn (I sure as hell didn't read MBotF because I wanted to see a ton of awful people kill each other and everything be cynical like in GoT).

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#45 User is offline   Egwene 

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 03:52 PM

View PostD, on 27 October 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

View PostSalt-Man Z, on 26 October 2017 - 05:58 PM, said:

All the talk about bleakness and style change and whatnot doesn't really explain what happened, though. It wasn't a case of everyone trying out FoD, deciding they didn't like it, and bailing on the trilogy. As SE says, FoD itself bombed, meaning people didn't buy it to begin with. Unless it was the previews or bad word-of-mouth that kept sales of FoD down, it doesn't seem like the writing itself is to blame.

I can't help but wonder if the weirdly-abstract/generic cover art was at fault somehow? Like, the early Tor "cheesy fantasy" covers to the later Steve Stone "the back of a generic fantasy dude" ones at least gave some flavor while screaming "epic fantasy" to prospective readers. The Kharkanas covers very much do not.


In addition to the aforementioned cover art and preamble issues with FoD, I'll give another reason why FoD might have had tough initial sales: that damn cover blurb saying it "should appeal to fans of Game of Thrones". That might pull in some readers, and might have been more effective 4 or 8 years earlier, but at the time of FoD's release I think it could turn away a lot of people. For those unfamiliar with MBotF it makes FoD look like a weak product that the publisher can only sell by trying to compare to GoT. For those who are familiar wit the series, it's a right-hand turn (I sure as hell didn't read MBotF because I wanted to see a ton of awful people kill each other and everything be cynical like in GoT).


LOL - I remember seeing that at the time and thinking that that was NOT a recommendation in my book...

Let's not forget, there is also the question of budget as well as the time factor for many readers. Most people are not able to just buy every book they fancy the moment it comes out and most people take considerable time over a book rather than being able to read a new one every other day. So, having read all of the Malazan series those reader are faced with a 'to-do' list of several or all of ICE novels and Kharkanas. Given that FoD is quite clearly not a 'Malazan' book in the same way as the main series and the novels... most readers probably decided to stick with the current, 'Malazan', time period - probably with the intention of reading the trilogy later with the expected added bonus of it then being completed.

As for Karsa... well, I very much hope that although he is the title figure, that the books will be about a lot more than him... otherwise... well, I am not sure that 'Karsa the Barbarian' has got the mass appeal that a reading of forum post might indicate. His story provided some catchy phrases and quite a lot of funny moments but is 'Witness' really enough for entire books based on what is basically a violent, often intolerant, rude to say the least and a 'pain in the proverbial' individual for many of those he meets?
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#46 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 04:02 PM

View PostEgwene, on 27 October 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

View PostD, on 27 October 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

View PostSalt-Man Z, on 26 October 2017 - 05:58 PM, said:

All the talk about bleakness and style change and whatnot doesn't really explain what happened, though. It wasn't a case of everyone trying out FoD, deciding they didn't like it, and bailing on the trilogy. As SE says, FoD itself bombed, meaning people didn't buy it to begin with. Unless it was the previews or bad word-of-mouth that kept sales of FoD down, it doesn't seem like the writing itself is to blame.

I can't help but wonder if the weirdly-abstract/generic cover art was at fault somehow? Like, the early Tor "cheesy fantasy" covers to the later Steve Stone "the back of a generic fantasy dude" ones at least gave some flavor while screaming "epic fantasy" to prospective readers. The Kharkanas covers very much do not.


In addition to the aforementioned cover art and preamble issues with FoD, I'll give another reason why FoD might have had tough initial sales: that damn cover blurb saying it "should appeal to fans of Game of Thrones". That might pull in some readers, and might have been more effective 4 or 8 years earlier, but at the time of FoD's release I think it could turn away a lot of people. For those unfamiliar with MBotF it makes FoD look like a weak product that the publisher can only sell by trying to compare to GoT. For those who are familiar wit the series, it's a right-hand turn (I sure as hell didn't read MBotF because I wanted to see a ton of awful people kill each other and everything be cynical like in GoT).


LOL - I remember seeing that at the time and thinking that that was NOT a recommendation in my book...

Let's not forget, there is also the question of budget as well as the time factor for many readers. Most people are not able to just buy every book they fancy the moment it comes out and most people take considerable time over a book rather than being able to read a new one every other day. So, having read all of the Malazan series those reader are faced with a 'to-do' list of several or all of ICE novels and Kharkanas. Given that FoD is quite clearly not a 'Malazan' book in the same way as the main series and the novels... most readers probably decided to stick with the current, 'Malazan', time period - probably with the intention of reading the trilogy later with the expected added bonus of it then being completed.

As for Karsa... well, I very much hope that although he is the title figure, that the books will be about a lot more than him... otherwise... well, I am not sure that 'Karsa the Barbarian' has got the mass appeal that a reading of forum post might indicate. His story provided some catchy phrases and quite a lot of funny moments but is 'Witness' really enough for entire books based on what is basically a violent, often intolerant, rude to say the least and a 'pain in the proverbial' individual for many of those he meets?


I think we are all going to be a bit surprised with the way the Karsa books turn out.

Here is my prediction:

Karsa returns to find a large proportion of his people enslaved. Enraged, he frees them and tries to start his crusade. Things get complicated when it turns out that quite a few Toblakai would rather engage in trade and assimilate in society rather than fight it. Karsa's own ideas about civilisation are challenged and challenged badly. Its not going to be the badass catchphrase filled truimpant tour at all.
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#47 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 04:10 PM

View PostAndorion, on 27 October 2017 - 04:02 PM, said:


Here is my prediction:

Karsa returns to find a large proportion of his people enslaved. Enraged, he frees them and tries to start his crusade. Things get complicated when it turns out that quite a few Toblakai would rather engage in trade and assimilate in society rather than fight it. Karsa's own ideas about civilisation are challenged and challenged badly. Its not going to be the badass catchphrase filled truimpant tour at all.


Oh for sure, I agree!

I think the entire point of a Karsa trilogy is as a paradigm shifter for Karsa on a personal level and the world around him...especially after the events in TCG.
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#48 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 04:14 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 27 October 2017 - 04:10 PM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 27 October 2017 - 04:02 PM, said:

Here is my prediction:

Karsa returns to find a large proportion of his people enslaved. Enraged, he frees them and tries to start his crusade. Things get complicated when it turns out that quite a few Toblakai would rather engage in trade and assimilate in society rather than fight it. Karsa's own ideas about civilisation are challenged and challenged badly. Its not going to be the badass catchphrase filled truimpant tour at all.


Oh for sure, I agree!

I think the entire point of a Karsa trilogy is as a paradigm shifter for Karsa on a personal level and the world around him...especially after the events in TCG.


Going by the way SE treats tribal societies and Karsa's character arc this is the most likely story. Of course, the nature of the books will be determined by the tone he takes and the details.

Also he has to tell them that the Faces in the Rock are not actual gods.

I wonder if the God in the title is Karsa himself?
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#49 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 06:55 PM

I don't want to speculate too much, but as I think I've said before, my guess is Karsa's crusade will inevitably run smack dab into the Malazan Empire...and that likely means we'll get more Mallick Rel, and perhaps given the timing, the return and rise of Grub (as Karsa's rival?). And yah, I agree with you guys there will be another evolution of some sort in Karsa's thinking. And now I'm also not so sure the "Late Empire" thing in that one Grub epigraph will turn out to be as doom-and-gloom as it initially sounds. But who knows?
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#50 User is offline   Hetan 

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 07:30 PM

I am looking forward to this more than the FoL termination novel to be honest. At least it is moving forward and one thing SE is good at is moving forward.
I'm not sure about the rest of you but I'd much rather read unknown material - in as much as we don't know anything about this one at all!.

He's regaining his impetus by changing priority and that can only be good for his writing and for us, the readers.
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#51 User is offline   Puck 

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 08:57 PM

View PostEgwene, on 27 October 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

As for Karsa... well, I very much hope that although he is the title figure, that the books will be about a lot more than him... otherwise... well, I am not sure that 'Karsa the Barbarian' has got the mass appeal that a reading of forum post might indicate. His story provided some catchy phrases and quite a lot of funny moments but is 'Witness' really enough for entire books based on what is basically a violent, often intolerant, rude to say the least and a 'pain in the proverbial' individual for many of those he meets?


I could kiss you for that part there, because I highly agree. I really hope the Karsa thing will turn out similarly, though obviously not the same, as what happened with Rake and the Kharkanas trilogy. Eventually, it was never about Rake, as so many, many people previously had thought, and especially not about Rake kicking ass. As the prelude saya, he was/is the least part of it. Obviously, that's not going to work with Karsa and the style can be nothing else but different from Kharkanas, but I sure hope it's NOT just about Karsa being an ass to everyone and that there's more story to it than just him. But I'm just going to trust in SE as I've never been disappointed by a book of his (mostly because I don't care about any particular way I would want to story to go, what's the point in finding out something I'd already expected?) and just buy and read whatever comes out way. I'm just not happy about the prospect of WiS coming later, but obviously that's not my call and irks me because I'm a completionist and wants things in an orderly... order.

Actually, thinking about it, he's always been writing stuff between other stuff, it just so happens that this time it's two big things that get interchanged, rather than other series/novellas.

This post has been edited by Puck: 27 October 2017 - 09:03 PM

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#52 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 09:31 PM

IIRC, he is (was?) writing another Willful Child novel in-between, also.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#53 User is offline   Siergiej 

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Posted 28 October 2017 - 02:03 PM

I'm way more interested in the conclusion to the Kharkanas Trilogy than in Karsa' story arc so the news is a bummer even if I wasn't fond of Fall of Light. That said, I'm gonna read any Malazan stuff that Erikson writes and I hope the Toblakai novels give him enough momentum to come back strongly to Walk in Shadow.

As for the reasons why Kharkanas novels tanked, I'm not surprised. The bar to pick them up is very high. It's an incomplete trilogy - so you don't have the full story. The novels are long - 600+ and 800+ pages. And more importantly, you need to be familiar with the Malazan world to pick it up and that's a hell lot to ask of readers. Just look at the Amazon blurb for Forge of Darkness:

Quote

Steven Erikson entered the pantheon of great fantasy writers with his debutGardens of the Moon. Now Erikson returns with a trilogy that takes place millennia before the events of theMalazan Book of the Fallen.The Forge of Darknessintroduces readers to Kurald Galain, the warren of Darkness, and tells an epic tale of a realm whose fate plays a crucial role in shaping the world of the Malazan Empire.It's a conflicted time in Kurald Galain, the realm of Darkness, where Mother Dark reigns. But this ancient land was once home to many a power… and even death is not quite eternal. The commoners' great hero, Vatha Urusander, is being promoted by his followers to take Mother Dark's hand in marriage, but her Consort, Lord Draconus, stands in the way of such ambitions. The impending clash sends fissures throughout the realm, and as the rumors of civil war burn through the masses, an ancient power emerges from the long dead seas. Caught in the middle of it all are the First Sons of Darkness, Anomander, Andarist, and Silchas Ruin of the Purake Hold.


Steven Erikson brings to life this ancient and important tale set in the world he introduced in theMalazan Book of the Fallen.



Now, if you didn't know Malazan books, if you didn't know what any of these names and titles mean, would you be even remotely interested in reading 600+ pages of that?

For anyone who isn't a die-hard fan of Erikson's, Kharkanas Trilogy is a huge ask. Meanwhile, Dancer's Lament is 400 pages long and the blurb gives you a short and sweet promise of straightforward fantasy fun:

Quote

Esslemont's all-new prequel trilogy takes readers deeper into the politics and intrigue of the New York Times bestselling Malazan Empire. Dancer's Lament focuses on the genesis of the empire, and features Dancer, the skilled assassin, who, alongside the mage Kellanved, would found the Malazan empire.



It's sad that Kharkanas novels don't sell well - but it's also nit surprising at all.
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#54 User is offline   Mistake Not... 

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 03:48 AM

I am really excited about this news! The Kharkanus series are books that I can recognize as high quality masterpieces, but they are just not a lot of fun to read. I couldn't even finish Fall of Light. As many people have mentioned they alienate the casual malazan fan. I expect that the publisher will be looking at the reasons why Dancers Lament was so successful and that the Karsa books will continue what made his ten book series so popular. Also I think Steven and the publisher will make sure that a person, who has never read the previous malazan books, could enjoy the Karsa books (as they did with Dancer's Lament).

This post has been edited by Mistake Not...: 29 October 2017 - 03:48 AM

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#55 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 04:44 AM

View PostMistake Not..., on 29 October 2017 - 03:48 AM, said:

I am really excited about this news! The Kharkanus series are books that I can recognize as high quality masterpieces, but they are just not a lot of fun to read. I couldn't even finish Fall of Light. As many people have mentioned they alienate the casual malazan fan. I expect that the publisher will be looking at the reasons why Dancers Lament was so successful and that the Karsa books will continue what made his ten book series so popular. Also I think Steven and the publisher will make sure that a person, who has never read the previous malazan books, could enjoy the Karsa books (as they did with Dancer's Lament).


Is your user name a Culture reference?
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#56 User is offline   Mistake Not... 

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 12:53 PM

Yes! Thank you for noticing!

This post has been edited by Mistake Not...: 29 October 2017 - 12:56 PM

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#57 User is offline   Traveller 

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 02:12 PM

View PostMistake Not..., on 29 October 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

Yes! Thank you for noticing!


Ha yes I saw that. Love that book.
So that's the story. And what was the real lesson? Don't leave things in the fridge.
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#58 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 02:42 PM

View PostT, on 29 October 2017 - 02:12 PM, said:

View PostMistake Not..., on 29 October 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

Yes! Thank you for noticing!


Ha yes I saw that. Love that book.


That reveal was such a satisfying moment in the book
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#59 User is offline   Puck 

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 06:01 PM

View PostMistake Not..., on 29 October 2017 - 03:48 AM, said:

[...] Also I think Steven and the publisher will make sure that a person, who has never read the previous malazan books, could enjoy the Karsa books (as they did with Dancer's Lament).


Tbh, that's what they claimed would be the case with the Kharkanas trilogy, too. Something a new reader might pick up without having read the MBotF. I'd argue that's not the case, never mind how much I love the Kharkanas books so far. So I'm not putting my imaginary money on that. You just can't compare SE's and ICE's ambitions in writing.

This post has been edited by Puck: 29 October 2017 - 06:02 PM

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#60 User is offline   Lamora 

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:52 AM

I am really looking forward to the Karsa books. As some have said, the elephant in the room is the Malazan Empire. They own, what, half of Genabackis? Though some of the conquered land might have been overthrown when the Civil War started and Laseen died. I am not sure if Rel ever gained back land that was lost. There is still a lot of land south of Darujhistan that is available for conquering. Someone also mentioned his people enslaved or wanting to trade and assimilate. I don't know about this. Maybe to a degree, but wouldn't his daughters have mentioned it in their POV? I do see his worldview being challenged though. But Karsa has always drawn people to him, and he might well make full god in these novels. So... I am not sure what will truly stop him from his crusade among his own people.

I think it is still definitely too early for Grub. He will only be, what, 12ish at the start of these novels? Way too early for him to have power in the military. I hope SE saves his story for the Shadow Trilogy. Maybe I am the only one hoping for a Shadow trilogy though... And by Shadow trilogy I mean books focused on Trull's children. One the child of Trull and the Mockra High Mage and the other the child of Trull and the Eres (sp?). That second child was even said to be able to heal Emerluhn which sounds absolutely amazing! After Karsa and Kharkansas (sp?), I am really hoping for this kind of trilogy. Grub can be an older, stronger character in this time period at mid 20s or so then in Karsa's time period. Thats my thoughts on it at least.
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