[Andorion]

Egwene, on 26 October 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

I can see that SE would be disappointed with low sales figures/lukewarm reception but there was always the likelihood of problems due to the change in writing style. Existing fans are fans of the existing style and might not make the change. Brand-new, potential trilogy fans might be put off by the idea that the trilogy is a prequel to another series which upon investigation they either, might consider reading first (taking the average reader years to catch-up) or, which might decide them not to get involved at all as they might be put off by the differing style of that series. Then there are those who never buy trilogies unless completed...

Editing the Wiki has meant that I keep dipping into FoD and FoL and they have grown on me in the process. Those visits, looking at specific details, have made me aware of a lot of subtle stuff that I missed in the initial read - more so than happened with GotM and subsequently, I have begun to value Kharkanas more. However, initially... I don't think it was the style - I love introspection and philosophy... probably more a lack of characters to identify with and the general bleakness which Andorion referred to. In some ways, the Tiste are just 'too grand'... whereas the Malazan series is about the foot soldier at the core and politics as seen from the bottom the trilogy is about ruling houses and politics from the top down. Add to that grand names and readers trying to overlay what they know of the same people thousands of years later... it becomes heavy going.

I hope that SE will publish the third book eventually, even if only as an e-book but in the meantime, I shall look forward to going back to Seven Cities and hopefully a dose of the familiar mix of action and history, shocking convergences and brilliant humour and everything else which makes me so love this series

Just like everything SE, the books improve greatly on the reread.

I will actually say Fall of Light gave mo more relatable characters than FoL. I really liked Korya PoVs. Also the chapters with K'rul were some of the most mouth-watering (from a lore perspective) I have ever read.

While the bleakness does tend to get one down, all the tidbits he threw in, especially with the Hounds, was awesome.

[End of Disc One]

Although I loved Fall of Light, much of it seemed masturbatory like he was writing for himself and not his readers. I'm surprised that he's surprised it didn't sell well. Hopefully with the next trilogy we get more of Karsa punching ascendants in the face, and less poetic mumbo jumbo.

[Salt-Man Z]

All the talk about bleakness and style change and whatnot doesn't really explain what happened, though. It wasn't a case of everyone trying out FoD, deciding they didn't like it, and bailing on the trilogy. As SE says, FoD itself bombed, meaning people didn't buy it to begin with. Unless it was the previews or bad word-of-mouth that kept sales of FoD down, it doesn't seem like the writing itself is to blame.

I can't help but wonder if the weirdly-abstract/generic cover art was at fault somehow? Like, the early Tor "cheesy fantasy" covers to the later Steve Stone "the back of a generic fantasy dude" ones at least gave some flavor while screaming "epic fantasy" to prospective readers. The Kharkanas covers very much do not.

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 26 October 2017 - 04:07 PM, said:

But if you think about it, it was always going to be doom and gloom. Kharkanas is the story of the downfall of the Tiste.

What do we see the Tiste doing in the main series? The Andii are morbidly depressed and Rake has to literally find wars for them to get involved in so they have something to live for. The Liosan are a bunch of delusional, xenophobic genocidal fanatics. The Edur have been reduced to tribal barbarity and have lost their history completely. Kurald Galain is sealed, Mother Dark is gone. This is an utterly shitty situation. Kharkanas is the story of how that came to be. So by definition, there cannot be hope. It is a story of disaster. It is a tale of the end of a world, the collapse of a civilisation.

None of that explains why everyone is so dreary and depressed and navel gazing BEFORE it all goes to shit.

[Andorion]

Nevyn, on 26 October 2017 - 05:58 PM, said:

Andorion, on 26 October 2017 - 04:07 PM, said:

But if you think about it, it was always going to be doom and gloom. Kharkanas is the story of the downfall of the Tiste.

What do we see the Tiste doing in the main series? The Andii are morbidly depressed and Rake has to literally find wars for them to get involved in so they have something to live for. The Liosan are a bunch of delusional, xenophobic genocidal fanatics. The Edur have been reduced to tribal barbarity and have lost their history completely. Kurald Galain is sealed, Mother Dark is gone. This is an utterly shitty situation. Kharkanas is the story of how that came to be. So by definition, there cannot be hope. It is a story of disaster. It is a tale of the end of a world, the collapse of a civilisation.

None of that explains why everyone is so dreary and depressed and navel gazing BEFORE it all goes to shit.

The Tiste society didn't just collapse by itself. The mindset of the people had a lot to do with it.

[Nevyn]

Salt-Man Z, on 26 October 2017 - 05:58 PM, said:

All the talk about bleakness and style change and whatnot doesn't really explain what happened, though. It wasn't a case of everyone trying out FoD, deciding they didn't like it, and bailing on the trilogy. As SE says, FoD itself bombed, meaning people didn't buy it to begin with. Unless it was the previews or bad word-of-mouth that kept sales of FoD down, it doesn't seem like the writing itself is to blame.

I can't help but wonder if the weirdly-abstract/generic cover art was at fault somehow? Like, the early Tor "cheesy fantasy" covers to the later Steve Stone "the back of a generic fantasy dude" ones at least gave some flavor while screaming "epic fantasy" to prospective readers. The Kharkanas covers very much do not.

It really is not super complicated or surprising.


For people who had finished all Malazan works to date, many probably tried FoD, unless they were reading something else first and got bad word of mouth. But as a disconnected prequel feature deep background on non POV characters, there is little impetus to rush out and start it.

People who got hooked on the main series would naturally buy all the way to the end, but at that point they have read millions of words by the same author. Maybe they try something else. Even if not, maybe they decide to start reading the ICE novels next. And of course anyone still buying the main series has to finish it first.

All of which is to say, you would expect sales for it to be a slow build regardless, and publishing it so soon perhaps an error regardless. But then when half the die hards who read it right off don't like it .....

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 26 October 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 26 October 2017 - 05:58 PM, said:

Andorion, on 26 October 2017 - 04:07 PM, said:

But if you think about it, it was always going to be doom and gloom. Kharkanas is the story of the downfall of the Tiste.

What do we see the Tiste doing in the main series? The Andii are morbidly depressed and Rake has to literally find wars for them to get involved in so they have something to live for. The Liosan are a bunch of delusional, xenophobic genocidal fanatics. The Edur have been reduced to tribal barbarity and have lost their history completely. Kurald Galain is sealed, Mother Dark is gone. This is an utterly shitty situation. Kharkanas is the story of how that came to be. So by definition, there cannot be hope. It is a story of disaster. It is a tale of the end of a world, the collapse of a civilisation.

None of that explains why everyone is so dreary and depressed and navel gazing BEFORE it all goes to shit.

The Tiste society didn't just collapse by itself. The mindset of the people had a lot to do with it.

Which doesn't make it any more fun to read.

It makes perfect sense why watching a painting wall dry is just watching an unchanging monochrome image slowly get less shiny. But it making sense doesn't make it a better experience.

[Abyss]

Nevyn, on 26 October 2017 - 06:09 PM, said:

...

All of which is to say, you would expect sales for it to be a slow build regardless, and publishing it so soon perhaps an error regardless. But then when half the die hards who read it right off don't like it .....

Unfortunately, probably more or less accurate. The same, too small, subset of people bought FoD and FoL. No significant increase or dropoff., just a percentage of SE fans who were in and a chunk who never were and not enough newbs to make a difference.

I wonder how much better the numbers for WRATH OF BETTY were, since we're getting a third WILLFUL CHILD book and a new sf book as well.

[End of Disc One]

I wonder how much online reviews are affecting sales. Maybe Malazan readers are more informed than average, and will read reviews or reddit threads before starting a new series. I had no idea that Dancer's Lament actually sold well, and reviews would explain it.

[Adhara]

@Nevyn, even your analysis is much cooler tan mine, and, because of that, probably more accurate, I still think monetary issues should not mess with art. Of course I am cynical enough for to know it is only possible in an ideal world. Yes, probably it was SE's own decision and the publisher didn't force him, but still it were market laws and not artistic issues wich made him put Karsa first. And this is what I reject.

But of course, I'm the type of woman for whom economic and material questions are mortally boring... Oh, my, where have I read that before?

[Puck]

I'm a sad bunny. I LOVED FoD and FoL despite initially thinking that what ever could the story of teh Tiste give us that we don't already know. Eeh.. Everything, as it turned out. I'm a big fan of SE's approach to the Kharkanas trilogy and I loved both the style and the story. I sure know I got into several heated debated about it here and elsewhere and I know that a bunch of people disagree (and seem to think their opinion is more true than mine when the issue is one of taste). I know this doesn't mean that we'll never get WiS, and to be honest, I hadn't expected it to surface within the next two years anyway, but I'm a sad bunny anyway. I don't particularly care for Karsa or the hundredth scene of Karsa kicking someone's ass, but I know I'm going to buy it anyway and dearly hope we'll get WiS afterwards.

[amphibian]

If Erikson doesn't see that FoD and FoL are indeed in a different style than the main series, he's deluding himself.

I am making no derision towards the styles used, just saying that they are indeed in a different style.

I also believe that the style used in the Tiste books is one that needs the surety of "payoff" for the average reader (even the Malazan reader) to begin such a weighty journey. There's so much tension and gloom because this is a serious that's stretching the normal tension/gloom parameters to their breaking points. Shakespeare and the other epic dramatics have that payoff in a much shorter package and those who finish manage to bring in new readers and viewers. So we haven't had the payoff volume yet and thus, we don't know that there's enough payoff to wholeheartedly recommend this early as we did with the Malazan series.

I actually wish he alternated Karsa and this, in order to change up the flavors hitting for the Malazan readers. I'm very happy Dancer's Lament sold well. Blood and Bone, Stonewielder, and Assail were great, minus one plot line, and I really thought ICE took what worked from those (and from OST and RotCG, which were not great, as well).

And the covers of the Tiste books kinda suck.

[worry]

That reminds me of an old aphorism: Don't, or at least try not to, make decisions about what book you want to purchase based solely on what you think about the quality of its cover art.

[Andorion]

So this para was added, its also in Wertheads post:

Quote

Thanks so much for all your comments and encouragement. To those of you waiting for the trilogy to finish before buying, no need to apologize. Waiting for books sucks. Personally, I wish FoL hadn't taken three years to write. That alone is a long wait for any reader. I think what's made the Kharkanas trilogy so fragile for me is that it was always a risky proposition, in terms of tone, atmosphere and writing style. It's dense stuff, and while the style is seductive (for me) it's also one that requires a certain frame of mind. I wasn't aware of how vulnerable that frame of mind was until it got hammered. It may well turn out that after the first Karsa novel (working title: The God is not Willing), I'll head straight back to Walk in Shadow. Sometimes momentum is all one needs

.

Seems like its more about SE's morale than anything else. Lets hope the karsa book is a success

[amphibian]

worry, on 27 October 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:

That reminds me of an old aphorism: Don't, or at least try not to, make decisions about what book you want to purchase based solely on what you think about the quality of its cover art.

There are so many wonderful books out there with wonderful covers now. We live in a golden age of that.

And Erikson gets stuck with the empty helmet in front of vague artistic stone or metal.

[QuickTidal]

FoD was a bit of a chore for me...so much so that my copy of FoL sits in my ToRead pile unread. I just can't bring myself to read it...(I DID buy it tho, so still supporting Erickson for sure)

That said, I flat out adored DANCER'S LAMENT, so I'm glad to hear it sold so well! Super excited for DEADHOUSE LANDING!

And you know what? A Karsa series is just what the doctor ordered. That sounds like something I'm excited about. More excited than a prequel series about the Tiste....Karsa was WAY more interesting.

Witness!

[Aptorian]

I was super interested in a trilogy about the Tiste right until we figured out they were not some kind of god spawned Angels or Nephilim and the brothers Dark were not in fact born Ascendants.

I had a very supernatural, religious imagery of Tiste civilizations in my head. Like the equivelant of different Kingdoms of Heaven in elemental warrens.

Turns out Tiste are just human beings in every way possible, from physiology, to philosophy to human desires and needs.

Supremely disappointing.

This post has been edited by Alternative Goose: 27 October 2017 - 03:33 AM

[Salt-Man Z]

What is supremely disappointing is that no one has yet to make the obligatory "Karsa comes first" joke.

[Abyss]

Salt-Man Z, on 27 October 2017 - 04:11 AM, said:

What is supremely disappointing is that no one has yet to make the obligatory "Karsa comes first" joke.

IKR!!???!!!!

[Adhara]

Worry already did.