[champ]

 Morgoth, on 03 July 2019 - 10:50 AM, said:

A bunch of morons are up in arms about the casting in this show. The women are a little too non-Caucasian looking for the racist troglodytes of the internet.

Just the typical morons that get up in arms about most things these days...

edit

 Aptorian, on 03 July 2019 - 01:11 PM, said:

No links?

Example: https://boundinginto...nnefer-casting/ and https://www.gizmodo....m-freaking-out/

This post has been edited by champ: 03 July 2019 - 01:23 PM

[Aptorian]

Personally I am in the "keep the cast white" camp (and preferrably selected from Eastern european countries) but I think you could get away with Ciri being any color you want since she's got Elder Blood in her, what ever that means.

[Abyss]

 Aptorian, on 03 July 2019 - 02:01 PM, said:

Personally I am in the "keep the cast white" camp (and preferrably selected from Eastern european countries) but I think you could get away with Ciri being any color you want since she's got Elder Blood in her, what ever that means.

Why? Why do you care ?

[Aptorian]

Eastern European setting, based on Eastern European history and folklore. Fairly under represented subject matter when in comes to popular fiction.

Why not make a film that honors that heritage instead of making this about quotas for people of color in media?

[QuickTidal]

 Aptorian, on 03 July 2019 - 02:36 PM, said:

Eastern European setting, based on Eastern European history and folklore. Fairly under represented subject matter when in comes to popular fiction.

Why not make a film that honors that heritage instead of making this about quotas for people of color in media?

"Honouring heritage" is not a thing in a fantasy series with monsters and monster hunters and sorcerers...no matter how much it may resemble Eastern Europe...

I'm also not sure how skin colour of actors has anything to do with the characters they play.

Actors are playing a ROLE...not themselves/their ethnicity.

Dudes used to play women in Shakespeare plays...and nobody squawked. Acting is acting.

As long as they can nail the character portrayal, cast ANYONE.

Idris Elba as Bond too please while we are at it....just to really rile the idiots up.

[Aptorian]

I disagree. You can make this a debate about people of color in western society if you want and talk about fantasy as a playground for cultural boundaries but I think that's just a different kind of racism. White people aren't just white people. Poland and other Eastern European countries aren't just another European country or some White bastion. They're distinct cultures and if somebody makes a story built upon that history, that deserves as much thought as any other story.

When ever I see this debate I feel there's a heavy emphasis of a US centric mindset on political correctness where there's no need for it. If you want to be politically correct, and culturaly aware, cast Eastern European actors.

[QuickTidal]

 Aptorian, on 03 July 2019 - 03:20 PM, said:

If you want to be politically correct, and culturaly aware, cast Eastern European actors.

You haven't answered Abyss's question. Why?

How does a persons skin colour matter?

Henry Cavill is a Brit, from London...so not remotely eastern european...but because he's white, it's okay? How does that shake down with your argument about honouring culture or ethnicity. By your own rationale, should they not cast a white person FROM Eastern Europe? But I'll do you one better....Anya Chalotra (who is playing Yennefer) is ALSO a brit...and happens to have Indian heritage as well...how does Cavill qualify, but she does not? That makes zero sense to me. They are both British actors playing Eastern European-inspired roles...how is one okay and the other is not?

[Abyss]

 Aptorian, on 03 July 2019 - 02:36 PM, said:

Eastern European setting, based on Eastern European history and folklore. Fairly under represented subject matter when in comes to popular fiction.

Ok, perfectly reasonable for someone with that background to want to see those things represented.

Quote

Why not make a film that honors that heritage instead of making this about quotas for people of color in media?

Why not both?

...or put a different way, why does one prevent the other? ...is the Eastern Euro influence utterly lost if the fantasy setting has persons of color characters?

[D'rek]

 Abyss, on 03 July 2019 - 04:42 PM, said:

Quote

Why not make a film that honors that heritage instead of making this about quotas for people of color in media?

Why not both?

...or put a different way, why does one prevent the other? ...is the Eastern Euro influence utterly lost if the fantasy setting has persons of color characters?

I think... kinda yes? The same as the Egyptian influence is affected if the fantasy setting (for a movie set in a deliberately Egypt-esque fantasy world) has a bunch of white americans a la that big Ridley Scott egyptian movie fiasco.

That said, I agree with QT pointing out the british cast. I think it would've been great if this show had hired actual eastern europeans for its cast. Brits vs Americans, POC or white, doesn't make much difference they all don't represent the region. Either way, this isn't that big of a deal (and of course there's probably very few people who care all that strenuously about it. Media journalism will overstate any tiny vocal minority these days) - it's a "it would have been cool if...", not an "I am outraged because...".

[Aptorian]

I get you guys arguments. Logically, in a fantasy book you can do what ever, but my gut feeling is just that there shouldn't be a bunch of exotic ethnicities in a story centered around a Slavic'ish region. There just shouldn't. Maybe like some merchants and sailors but not in general.

I'd feel the same way about a Scandinavian setting. Hell, I'm still kinda sour about Elba playing Heimdal, even though he's great. But there's a lot of things I find wrong about the Thor films.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 03 July 2019 - 06:39 PM

[Abyss]

 Aptorian, on 03 July 2019 - 06:37 PM, said:

I get you guys arguments. Logically, in a fantasy book you can do what ever, but my gut feeling is just that there shouldn't be a bunch of exotic ethnicities in a story centered around a Slavic'ish region. There just shouldn't. Maybe like some merchants and sailors but not in general.

I'd feel the same way about a Scandinavian setting. Hell, I'm still kinda sour about Elba playing Heimdal, even though he's great. But there's a lot of things I find wrong about the Thor films.

But did any Thor/Marvel film suffer specifically because Elba played Heimdal?

[Aptorian]

Nah, just seemed lame. Which is also about the level of investment I have in the Witcher casting. It's not like I'm gonna start setting cars on fire because a (probably horrible) Netflix show didn't follow my specific taste.

[Puck]

Honouring heritage IS a thing. If a book based on African or Asian folklore were to be turned into a series and the actors cast were white, you would be singing another tune. Don't come at me with "but you Slavs are white".

I'm fucking tired of Slavs being represented as only heinous villians with bad accents. We have a history of oppression, too, and more importantly, America does not have to pull its bad conscience over everything. If you so want to make up for it, cast Native Amricans, too. I'm not seeing a lot of those in movies/series. And if there's for once ONE series that's based on OUR Slavic heritage and OUR myths and stories, I'd really love to see that be reflected in the casting. At least the original TV adaptation, as shitty as the wriring was, had fitting cast choices. I don't care that some of the actors cast are black, but if you're so keen on being diverse, cast accordingly, not just "Oh we will have some cookie-cutter British people as the main cast and cast some black actors, too, because we are so woke!". Be consistent.

That aside, I generally believe that the casting should fit the story and the actors should be able to carry the feeling the original character has onto the screen. Aside from Ciri, none of the cast I saw so far seems to manage. Henry Cavill looks like a cross between Legolas and a random aging beach boy no matter how much costume they slap on him, and Anya Chalotra does NOT look like she can pull off Yennefer. Idris Elba saved that silliness that was the Dark Tower movie adaptation BECAUSE he could pull off Roland. On the other hand, everyone thought that Enzo Cilenti could not pull off Childermass in the BBC adaptation of Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell, but he did. So far, the main Witcher cast is not being very convincing to me. There is a difference between "an actor is not their ethnicity" and "an actor that can not pull off the role no matter what their ethnicity is". I think Henry Cavill is a stupid choice for Geralt.

I don't even know why I care. Probably because these books were my entry into fantasy and also because it's the only popular series that's based on my culture, but hey, who cares about casting actual Slavs?

[Werthead]

 Aptorian, on 03 July 2019 - 06:37 PM, said:

I get you guys arguments. Logically, in a fantasy book you can do what ever, but my gut feeling is just that there shouldn't be a bunch of exotic ethnicities in a story centered around a Slavic'ish region. There just shouldn't. Maybe like some merchants and sailors but not in general.

Worth remembering that in THE WITCHER world, the humans are refugees from our planet (presumably destroyed in some future cataclysm) who've travelled to the Continent via portals during the Conjunction of the Spheres. On that basis, there should be people of different ethnicities mixed up all over the place, as that event happened barely 1,500 years before the events of the books (with current genetic understanding, it takes ~4,000 years for skin colour to change depending on latitude location). The WHEEL OF TIME used a similar explanation for why it's an ethnic mix of different kinds of people all over the place, and that was over a much longer period of time (over 3,000 years).

[Cause]

 QuickTidal, on 03 July 2019 - 03:05 PM, said:

Actors are playing a ROLE...not themselves/their ethnicity.

This is a fair point, we had this discussion in the WoT thread. The women playing Moraine is too tall but no actor can be moraine, they can only play moraine to their best of their ability. If we sacrifice the height but she can play the icy, secretive, manipulative sorceress in every other respect we can probably all agree its a good choice. The men who played women in Shakespearian plays put on dresses, wore makeup etc and did everything possible to make sure you knew at a glance their character was a women.

Now we can still have a moraine played by a women who is not five feet tall but can we have a conan the barbarian played by a five foot man with no muscles? Again we can all understand if they give us the clues that the man is supposed to be a strong, intimidating barbarian but an Arnold would do the job better. We can give the guy muscle suits, cgi etc and in that case great if it looks convincing.

Still when cloud atlas cast Hugo Weaving to play an Asian in a distant future people lost their shit that a Caucasian actor was playing an Asian role and they used cgi to give him Asian features. Even though the film was specifically about people being endlessly reincarnated through time and one way they made sure you could keep track of whose sould was whose in some timelines was suing the same actors.

So if the role is meant to be a Caucasian of Slavic dessent the best person to play that role is a Caucasian of Slavic descent. The second best person is a Caucasian and the third best would be a person of colour. I'm sure this whole debate has been had on this forum before and the whole is everyone Caucasian or is it mixed came up and someone found a quote from the author but I forget what he said.

The questions becomes was Elba cast as Heimdall because he was the best man for the role or was it an executive decision by someone who just thought an entire race of white aliens who look excactly like people was a bad idea. If the former great, if the latter its delibratly sacrificing the artistic vision. We very possible live in a world that for profit, or maybe more altrusticly to redress the pass such decisions need to be made but than its not about an actor playing a role.

Edit- a quick google search seems to show that the author claims that he pictures his world as ethnically diverse. so I guess that's that. Though I believe the main characters are all described in some detail and white is part of the description.

This post has been edited by Cause: 04 July 2019 - 08:42 AM

[Morgoth]

Hah, artistic vision of the Aesgardians in the MCU . They're so far distanced from Norse mythology in every way Elba being cast as Heimdal didn't even garner much controversy here in Norway. If the thing one reacts to in those movies is Heimdal being black then the problem sounds suspiciously like racism. Shit man, there's well founded theories connecting the imagery of Valhalla and the Norse gods to the imperial court in Constantinople.

As for the the world of the Witcher, though it borrows heavily from slavic mythology , it also takes quite a bit from Norse, Greek and Arabic folklore. The world is a collection of refugees from the cojoining of the spheres (or some such), and is specifically not homogenous. As for the description of the characters, the only one that really matters in a purely physical sense is Geralt. He looks different in a way that is easily reconcilable, and which leads to questions of prejudice and so forth. The sorceresses on the other hand; they are all beautiful because they alter their looks through magic. Yennefer is more than 80 years old and, from what I remember, a hunchback. Triss is so badly burned she is unable to heal herself properly and has resorted to illusions to keep up her appearance of beauty. Skin colour is irrelevant in every way.

[Cause]

 Morgoth, on 04 July 2019 - 11:40 AM, said:

Hah, artistic vision of the Aesgardians in the MCU . They're so far distanced from Norse mythology in every way Elba being cast as Heimdal didn't even garner much controversy here in Norway. If the thing one reacts to in those movies is Heimdal being black then the problem sounds suspiciously like racism. Shit man, there's well founded theories connecting the imagery of Valhalla and the Norse gods to the imperial court in Constantinople.

As for the the world of the Witcher, though it borrows heavily from slavic mythology , it also takes quite a bit from Norse, Greek and Arabic folklore. The world is a collection of refugees from the cojoining of the spheres (or some such), and is specifically not homogenous. As for the description of the characters, the only one that really matters in a purely physical sense is Geralt. He looks different in a way that is easily reconcilable, and which leads to questions of prejudice and so forth. The sorceresses on the other hand; they are all beautiful because they alter their looks through magic. Yennefer is more than 80 years old and, from what I remember, a hunchback. Triss is so badly burned she is unable to heal herself properly and has resorted to illusions to keep up her appearance of beauty. Skin colour is irrelevant in every way.

Its not the Rembrandt ceiling but its art. I don't care that Heimdall is black but as far as I have ever noticed after 3 thor movies he remains the only non-white asgardian. That is whats bizarre. Its like that goofy feminist moment in endwar, I'm not against women but that scene was so heavy handed you could see the real world strings being pulled. I like Elba, Luther is a great show. His portrayal of Heimdall, a character with very limited screen time to develop, is good. Still you cant not notice the decision to cast a black man as heimdall. I'm not the director so I cant say why they chose him but the decision is noticeable and notable.

[Werthead]

 Cause, on 04 July 2019 - 12:09 PM, said:

Its not the Rembrandt ceiling but its art. I don't care that Heimdall is black but as far as I have ever noticed after 3 thor movies he remains the only non-white asgardian. That is whats bizarre.

Valkyrie and Hogun (although he was Asgardian by naturalisation) are also both non-white.

[Cause]

 Werthead, on 04 July 2019 - 12:42 PM, said:

 Cause, on 04 July 2019 - 12:09 PM, said:

Its not the Rembrandt ceiling but its art. I don't care that Heimdall is black but as far as I have ever noticed after 3 thor movies he remains the only non-white asgardian. That is whats bizarre.

Valkyrie and Hogun (although he was Asgardian by naturalisation) are also both non-white.

Is hogun the Asian warrior of three? Yes I thought of him but he is not asgardian. Good point about Valkyrie though, I completely forgot about her.

[Tattersail_]

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