[polishgenius]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 28 August 2017 - 05:02 PM, said:

polishgenius, on 28 August 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

So how is Danaerys going to react when she realises that Tyrion knew full well that Cersei had no intention of sticking to her word?


I'm a bit miffed that Littlefinger went out so easily with no real final play, but the actual scene was great.

Why do you think Tyrion knows?

Tell truth I'm not 100% convinced on the idea, but there's a few hints and foreshadowings that he might: his line to Jon about 'can't you learn to lie at least a little', Cersei's 'you always were the stupidest Lannister' to Jaime, and some askance glances and looks from him that might be interpreted as guilty.

eta: I just had the thought, when Jaime says 'I don't believe you': my first thought was that he doesn't believe she'll kill him, but maybe he also means he doesn't believe she's pregnant?

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 28 August 2017 - 05:21 PM

[Coltaine -]

Terez, on 28 August 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

Starting to think that when it comes to the matter of succession (as they've already touched on with Tyrion), Jon will abdicate to Dany on the grounds that women shouldn't be excluded from inheritance. It's definitely a theme as the story goes on and all the men are dying. Sansa in Winterfell (not to mention Arya), Asha on the Iron Islands, Olenna at Highgarden, Ellaria/Arianne in Dorne, Cersei in King's Landing, Lysa in the Vale. If gender is taken out of the equation, Dany has the better claim since she was the daughter of the last king, rather than the grandson. Jon is son of the crown prince, but Rhaegar died before Aerys, and that made Viserys the crown prince.

I don't think that this would be the line of succession with Jon as an recognized Targaryen. With the death of Rhaegar his son Aegon became the crown prince. And at that moment the next in line for this title would have been his sister. After their death, or even before if Rhaegar turned them into bastards, the claim to the Iron Throne would theoretically go first to the unborn child of Lyanna.

And also if we start with Viserys as crown prince/claimant and ignore genders, his heir would still be the son of his brother, as Rhaegar was older than Daenerys.

Jon abdicating to Dany on the other hand sounds like something he would do. He is not very fond of ruling, she has big plans to improve the world, ...

[Nevyn]

End of Disc One, on 28 August 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:

Wasn't Jon born before baby Aegon and his sister were killed? If so, isn't that a massive dick move to annul his marriage and bastardize his two other children?

The two kids dont become retroactive bastards. They are still legitimate.

But yeah, dick move.

[Nevyn]

Terez, on 28 August 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

Starting to think that when it comes to the matter of succession (as they've already touched on with Tyrion), Jon will abdicate to Dany on the grounds that women shouldn't be excluded from inheritance. It's definitely a theme as the story goes on and all the men are dying. Sansa in Winterfell (not to mention Arya), Asha on the Iron Islands, Olenna at Highgarden, Ellaria/Arianne in Dorne, Cersei in King's Landing, Lysa in the Vale. If gender is taken out of the equation, Dany has the better claim since she was the daughter of the last king, rather than the grandson. Jon is son of the crown prince, but Rhaegar died before Aerys, and that made Viserys the crown prince.

Thats not how succession works.

Remember, 'theoretically legitimate' Joffrey was heir over Stannis. It is not just boys and girls. Oldest child of oldest child wins.

But Jon didn't even want King in the North. So something will no doubt come up. As per an upthread discussion, the legalities don't really matter as much as the power dynamics anyway. So they are probably going to have Dany remain queen for now, maybe calling Jon her heir (especially if she doesn't get knocked up), and they both have to survive the upcoming war for it to be a long term issue.

[Terez]

Nevyn, on 28 August 2017 - 06:01 PM, said:

Terez, on 28 August 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

Starting to think that when it comes to the matter of succession (as they've already touched on with Tyrion), Jon will abdicate to Dany on the grounds that women shouldn't be excluded from inheritance. It's definitely a theme as the story goes on and all the men are dying. Sansa in Winterfell (not to mention Arya), Asha on the Iron Islands, Olenna at Highgarden, Ellaria/Arianne in Dorne, Cersei in King's Landing, Lysa in the Vale. If gender is taken out of the equation, Dany has the better claim since she was the daughter of the last king, rather than the grandson. Jon is son of the crown prince, but Rhaegar died before Aerys, and that made Viserys the crown prince.

Thats not how succession works.
Remember, 'theoretically legitimate' Joffrey was heir over Stannis.

Yeah, but Joffrey was still alive when Robert died. I'm pretty sure it works this way in some systems, and I know I've seen it in fiction, where the title of crown prince is passed to the next child so long as the father is still alive. I honestly can't remember how it works in ASOIAF specifically, though; I'm sure it was spelled out in one historical situation or another (probably the ascension of Aegon the Unlikely).

[End of Disc One]

Nevyn, on 28 August 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

End of Disc One, on 28 August 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:

Wasn't Jon born before baby Aegon and his sister were killed? If so, isn't that a massive dick move to annul his marriage and bastardize his two other children?

The two kids dont become retroactive bastards. They are still legitimate.

But yeah, dick move.

If it was a divorce I'd agree, but doesn't an annulment treat a marriage as if it never even happened?

[Malankazooie]

Hey guys, if you get a chance to watch it again, pay attention to the music during the scene when Dany lands with Drogon at the Dragon Pit for the summit. What does the music remind you of? It reminds me of the music from The Witcher 3. Any of you who've played that game feel the same? I welcome any and all (and respect any and all) opinions on the matter. Thanks much.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I think in the world book the Targaryens practice a modified version of agnatic primogeniture - so by in book rules, Jon has the better claim as the son of the crown prince (with his slightly older half-brother being already dead, who would have had the better claim as the first son of the first son) - only when all offspring of the firstborn are dead does it pass to siblings (and their issue).

Rhaenys (and indeed further down the line, Daenerys) would have been ignored entirely as long as there was any male issue alive, because it would appear they had their equivalent of Salic law.

Think War of the Roses (which is the blueprint) - Edward the Black Prince (first son of Edward III) died without issue. The entire thing went pear shaped shortly after

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 28 August 2017 - 07:13 PM

[Nevyn]

End of Disc One, on 28 August 2017 - 06:49 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 28 August 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

End of Disc One, on 28 August 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:

Wasn't Jon born before baby Aegon and his sister were killed? If so, isn't that a massive dick move to annul his marriage and bastardize his two other children?

The two kids dont become retroactive bastards. They are still legitimate.

But yeah, dick move.

If it was a divorce I'd agree, but doesn't an annulment treat a marriage as if it never even happened?

Nope, even with an annulment, the children stay legit

[worry]

Honestly I think the incest thing means either: one of them has to die or Dany becomes pregnant with a child she has to pretend isn't Jon's.

Also I think this episode confirms the dead direwolf = dead Stark thing. Sansa passes the sentence but doesn't wield the execution blade herself. She's a goner.

(And I think, even though the show kinda bungled it this season, the Sansa vs Arya stuff as a concept is probably straight from GRRM -- the Cat/Lysa parallel & reversal seems like something he would devise, and I don't know how their reunion happens in the books but I think that version will be way more deftly constructed).

[Nevyn]

worry, on 28 August 2017 - 07:37 PM, said:

Honestly I think the incest thing means either: one of them has to die or Dany becomes pregnant with a child she has to pretend isn't Jon's.

Why would she have to pretend that? Again, the Targaryens married SIBLINGS.

Quote

Also I think this episode confirms the dead direwolf = dead Stark thing. Sansa passes the sentence but doesn't wield the execution blade herself. She's a goner.

Well, that's a bummer for Bran then. What's the time lag on that theory given Lady died in what, S1 E3 or so?

[polishgenius]

Malankazooie, on 28 August 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

Hey guys, if you get a chance to watch it again, pay attention to the music during the scene when Dany lands with Drogon at the Dragon Pit for the summit. What does the music remind you of? It reminds me of the music from The Witcher 3. Any of you who've played that game feel the same? I welcome any and all (and respect any and all) opinions on the matter. Thanks much.

Well they do have a history of ripping off video game music.

[worry]

Nevyn, on 28 August 2017 - 07:49 PM, said:

worry, on 28 August 2017 - 07:37 PM, said:

Honestly I think the incest thing means either: one of them has to die or Dany becomes pregnant with a child she has to pretend isn't Jon's.

Why would she have to pretend that? Again, the Targaryens married SIBLINGS.

Because it's gross. The Targaryens were gross. Dany's whole thing is doing things differently, not repeating the disreputable habits of old rulers. And because, ultimately, it will mirror Cersei & her kids.

[Aptorian]

Whoah, whoah, Worry. I'd hope you, as a fairly open minded free spirited individual would respect the Targaryans rights to love and marry who they want.

In the case of Snow and Daenerys, they can't have children, so you don't even have to worry about their offspring.

How dare you judge two siblings who just want to have a rule 34 relationship. Tsk. tsk. I thought you'd be more supportive.

[Tattersail_]

Who thinks the wall collapsing was just a vision from Bran, what's going to happen not what did happen?

[Cause]

The death of Peter baliesh fekt satisfying but also badly done. Why now? How did he lose control, he who him till now manipulated every event. What was his goal? Did he have one? In the book it seems he did. He is more paramount of the trident, leader of the vale and has a better handle on sands. In the show it seems he just plotted like it was a mental compulsion for him.

Cersei. Somehow more cunning than she should be of late. If batshit. Still from book knowledge I feel she is in for a world of pain. But maybe the show is going a different way. The iron bank should be against slavery? They can't rally believe she is the horse to back? The golden company basically exists to usurp Westeros and she invited them to her shores? Is she basically setting herself up. Book cwrsei always thought she was smarter than she is. Show cwrsei is more capable and yet I feel like yes she is baiting herself.

The unsullied? WTF how did they break free from the siege of catserly rock? When?

The wall failing. The dead marching past. It makes the wall pointless. All those spells apparently meaningless. Also makes the nightwatch pointless. Makes saving the wildlife pointless since they all died at eastwatxh. Things like that can happen but it seems poor storytelling. An unbroken watch of centuries and over 900 commanders and they failed when it counted. Yes that's the point but with the wall itself useless they are beyond marginalised.

[worry]

Alternative Goose, on 28 August 2017 - 08:45 PM, said:

In the case of Snow and Daenerys, they can't have children, so you don't even have to worry about their offspring.

Did an ob/gyn tell her this? Cuz otherwise I don't think it's a given.

[Brujah]

Alternative Goose, on 28 August 2017 - 08:45 PM, said:

Whoah, whoah, Worry. I'd hope you, as a fairly open minded free spirited individual would respect the Targaryans rights to love and marry who they want.

In the case of Snow and Daenerys, they can't have children, so you don't even have to worry about their offspring.

How dare you judge two siblings who just want to have a rule 34 relationship. Tsk. tsk. I thought you'd be more supportive.

Jon and Dany aren't siblings. This would make Dany and Jon, Aunt and Nephew. So it's at least better than siblings.

Edit: Although Dany's parents WERE brother and sister.

This post has been edited by Brujah: 28 August 2017 - 10:32 PM

[amphibian]

The Unsullied were never trapped at Casterly Rock. Their ships were burned, removing their ability to move fast. So they made the overland trip to Kings Landing unopposed, but slower than the Lannister army that got destroyed by the Dothraki.

I wonder if the Dothraki survive as a horse nomad people in Westeros past a generation. Probably most go back to the grass sea with loot and the rest go live in Dorne.

[Nevyn]

amphibian, on 28 August 2017 - 11:31 PM, said:

The Unsullied were never trapped at Casterly Rock. Their ships were burned, removing their ability to move fast. So they made the overland trip to Kings Landing unopposed, but slower than the Lannister army that got destroyed by the Dothraki.

I wonder if the Dothraki survive as a horse nomad people in Westeros past a generation. Probably most go back to the grass sea with loot and the rest go live in Dorne.

They were never BESIEGED at Casterly Rock. They were kind of stuck there, as they had no real supply lines or friendly territory to advance on land.

BUT that was before the dothraki and Drogon did a number on Jamie near to King's landing. Not a stretch that after that there'd be a lot less threat of major troop movements to block them coming to King's Landing.

Plus Dany still has some ships. With dragon guards the unsullied could also have left by sea.