[Terez]

u mad bro?

[worry]

Oh I wanted to say the bear fight was kinda cool, but mostly it made me wish to see that first section of Midnight Tides in the ice plains.

[Aptorian]

What is the estimated speed of an unladen raven? Do you think the glass shatters when ravens fly low over cities?

Like people above has stated, this episode was ridiculous. Lots of cool scenes, great battles, some pivotal story progression. But man was there a lot of bad writing in there.

If the Night King can throw an ice spear that hard, do you reckon he's just going to chuck spears at the Wall until it's full of holes?

[Malankazooie]

The zombie ice bear was a huuuuuuuge advertisement that one of Dany's dragons was going to become a zombie ice dragon. I saw that coming from a mile away when the bear made its entrance. So I wasn't shocked by that at all.

[Terez]

Rewatching the scene with Gilly reading High Septon Maynard's records (including Rhaegar's annulment) and god, as a book reader, it annoys the fuck out of me. Sam is trying to read, Gilly. Be quiet.

[LadyMTL]

I am a huge GoT fan - moreso the books than the show, especially at this point - but I found myself rolling my eyes so hard when I watched ep 6. Apologies if this is considered spoiler-y, I can't remember how to post the text hidden for spoilers.

Among other things that irked me: no-one thought to bring a frickin' raven with them? No dragonglass, other than what Jorah had? No-one actually ever bothered to at least try another option other than "let's hike north of the wall and trap a walker?" I mean, Dany could have just had Drogon snatch one up and dump att the gates of King's Landing. Or if not that, just roast the Night King where he stood, especially after his Olympic-level javelin toss took down Viserion? Where did all of those chains come from? And so on, and so on.
I've managed to suspend my disbelief as far as the travelling aspect of the season goes, but this ep just made it seem like everyone in Westeros is an idiot. Or at least that they've never heard of the word contingency.

Don't even get me started on the whole Dany + Jon romance...blech. It will never not be creepy to me.

ETA: I'm not mad, per se, and I'm relatively confident that GRRM's book will be quite different, but this just came off as silly writing, IMHO.

This post has been edited by LadyMTL: 21 August 2017 - 11:52 AM

[amphibian]

Tormund's axe was dragon glass, as were the spears the Wildings had and the Hound's knives. Plus the noted knives of Jorah.

[End of Disc One]

I think I got dumber after watching that episode.

now where da boobs?

This post has been edited by End of Disc One: 21 August 2017 - 01:16 PM

[QuickTidal]

Meh, I thought it was fine. Sure there were a bunch of pretty crazy "test ones suspension of disbelief" moments...but damn they made up for it in style and entertainment. So no, I don't care much about the logistics of "why didn't they do this?" or "why didn't they do that?" when I'm entertained on the level I was.

Also, the wights being linked to the white walkers is just one more thing that GRRM cribbed from MS&T...wherein the barrow wights and giants are controlled by the Norns (pale-skinned dark elves with icy blue eyes...yeah, you can't make this stuff up) and used to attack the humans south of the great mountains of the North. This is up to and including the death of the head Norn (Ineluki, The Storm King = GRRM's Night King doesn't even have all that different of a name) causing the barrow wights and giants to be lost as well. But yeah, if Norn Singers are felled (magic users), their wights fall into dust too (and giants are freed).

But yeah, overall we thought this episdoe was great!

[amphibian]

The death of the same Wildings sounds like bad editing. The initial intent was probably to have a choice between several scenes and not put them all in.

What struck me about this episode was that the entire dead army isn't linked to just the Night King and that there must be a specific raising done by a walker.

Do people think Benjen is dead dead or just tackled by the wights?

[Nevyn]

amphibian, on 21 August 2017 - 02:01 PM, said:

The death of the same Wildings sounds like bad editing. The initial intent was probably to have a choice between several scenes and not put them all in.

What struck me about this episode was that the entire dead army isn't linked to just the Night King and that there must be a specific raising done by a walker.

Do people think Benjen is dead dead or just tackled by the wights?

He was already dead dead, with the magic of the children preventing him from becoming a wight. Weather that can be undone and what happens to him now ... who knows?

[Nevyn]

Terez, on 21 August 2017 - 03:52 AM, said:

Oh, that's another thing. Beric wanted Jon to kill the Night King because he probably raised most or all of the wights from the dead, and Jon's reasoning for not doing it was that they needed to take that one wight back with them. Like, what? If you kill the Night King and his whole army, there's no need for proof they exist!

Well, on that one, lets be fair.

Jon's point was that if they die trying to kill the night king, they will fail at their in theory more achievable mission of getting the evidence to King's Landing. It's not like the night king was ten feet away with his back turned and a "stab me with valyrian steel" sign on his back. Beric's "plan" was to charge over unstable ice, fight through thousands of wights, and try to get directly to the night king, who has multiple other walkers with him.

You half expected Jon to reply "one does not simply walk into Mordor"

[End of Disc One]

Werthead, on 19 August 2017 - 07:43 PM, said:

I may have written an article for Variety on the big fan meet-up in 2009 when the pilot was being filmed and absolutely no-one had any idea who these people were.

Hey I remember these pics.

Also as a fantasy geography enthusiast, I look forward to your thoughts on the new episode.

[Primateus]

Honestly, I thought that the dragon dying was stupid and predictable. What was the reasoning behind it? Was it unfair to the Night King that he didn't have a dragon to call his own? Are they just going for the shock effect?

Now, I'm not angry that it died, or even that it was raised as wight itself. If I'm angry about anything, it's about how predictable it was. I just knew it was going to happen and I thought it was stupid.

It kinda reminds me of a trend I became familiar with first time in the Stargate series. The moment they got something really fucking cool, badass, awesome or powerful, they'd lose it pretty much next episode.
Dany finally had her three full grown dragons, and of course one of them dies and becomes the enemy. Of course that happens.

[Dadding]

Getting tired of everybody complaining about little so-called plot holes that can easily be explained. Do we need to be spoon fed every single detail for it to be plausible?


1. Chains north of the wall: Could have gotten them from Hardhome, the wildlings had chains when they assaulted the wall (scavenged from somewhere). Also seems like there's some sort of ferry in the last shot (wooden barge draped with chains) that could have been the source of the chains.

2. Gendry running, raven flying, dragon flying was too fast / time travel: According to a post on reddit, a pigeon could make the journey in something like 1.5 days (and ravens are faster, also I read something about ravens being even faster in ASOIAF universe) a dragon could make the journey in about 6 hours. Give or take a little bit. We see the gang go to sleep at least once, so they're there for quite a while. With enough food it's not that far fetched to survive that long.

3. Why didn't the Night King attack them while they were on the island? Thoughts that the Night King might be a greenseer / know what's coming, he was using them as bait to get a dragon.

4. Why is the Night King moving so slow when the rest of them are teleporting left and right? There's still a wall between the North and South. Making a trap to get a dragon might be exactly what the Night King needs to get across the wall (dragon fire / powerful enough being / just fly over the wall), so chances are, he was just waiting around, not walking super slow.

5. Why did the Night King not attack the big dragon with all the people on it? He throws a spear at the dragon breathing fire, and it explodes. Maybe that's important, maybe it needs to be breathing fire. Maybe the Night King wanted that dragon in particular because it's the weakest / smallest so it's the easiest to take down. Maybe he's a greenseer and knows that big dragon has already been shot at and might have learned to dodge. Maybe Night King is omniscient and has some other reason for doing this.

6. Why didn't Cold Hands join Jon on his horse? Jon's dying of hypothermia and barely makes it to the wall, maybe the horse wouldn't be able to go as fast with cold hands on it too. Maybe Cold Hands (like Thoros / Beric) has been waiting for his destiny and thinks this is it, wants to die, and uses this occasion to do so heroically.

7. Why is Arya being such a bitch to Sansa? Why does she accuse Sansa of doing nothing when Ned is executed when Sansa was clearing mad and screaming? Maybe she knows exactly what Littlefinger expects and is playing in his hands.

8. Why didn't Danny just fly down and get a wight instead of this group of people? Because she wasn't quite sure if she believed in the threat / trusted them. When Jon and Jorah are both in danger, she realizes this is real, she has feelings for both of these people, and flies down.

9. How are there so many red shirts? I don't quite feel like re-watching the episodes, but I'm pretty sure there's half a dozen or more randoms following behind the heroes when they stepped out North of the wall last episode. This at least I can admit is not super well-done, would have been nice to at least see more of them before they died.

/end rant

[Nevyn]

Dadding, on 21 August 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

2. Gendry running, raven flying, dragon flying was too fast / time travel: According to a post on reddit, a pigeon could make the journey in something like 1.5 days (and ravens are faster, also I read something about ravens being even faster in ASOIAF universe) a dragon could make the journey in about 6 hours. Give or take a little bit. We see the gang go to sleep at least once, so they're there for quite a while. With enough food it's not that far fetched to survive that long.

They have a seemingly multiday walking trek out from the wall over uneven icy terrain. How many days? Unknown. But far enough that the arrowhead mountain can't be seen from the giant wall, nor as soon as they depart. Gendry (who is suffering from the cold, has never been north, and who Jon randomly decided was fastest without ever seeing him run) runs all the way back, not collapsing until about 50 feet from the wall. How long did THAT take. Then he is barely conscious, says something about a raven, but hasn't even given the message yet.

The guard have to revive him, get the message, and then send it via Raven. By the first scale of map I saw, the raven has to fly about 2100 miles from Eastwatch to Dragonstone. 36 hours would mean ravens flying at FIFTY EIGHT miles an hour. Your dragon is moving at 360 miles an hour (more since they aren't AT eastwatch) with a rider on its back who doesn't even have oxygen or freaking earmuffs. And this is before we get into how long to get the message relayed to her, summon her children, and provision for the trip, nor how long to search from dragonback as the raven will NOT have had coordinates.

If you can't admit that all of this is at least stretching plausibility, the issue is you. The writers took a cheap storytelling shortcut (they have taken a number this year) to get the key story elements they wanted shoehorned into the right amount of screen time. And the scenes do look cool. But trying to argue this all makes sense sounds ridiculous.

Quote

5. Why did the Night King not attack the big dragon with all the people on it? He throws a spear at the dragon breathing fire, and it explodes. Maybe that's important, maybe it needs to be breathing fire. Maybe the Night King wanted that dragon in particular because it's the weakest / smallest so it's the easiest to take down. Maybe he's a greenseer and knows that big dragon has already been shot at and might have learned to dodge. Maybe Night King is omniscient and has some other reason for doing this.

Except he throws the second spear at the big non fire breathing dragon with all the people.

Quote

8. Why didn't Danny just fly down and get a wight instead of this group of people? Because she wasn't quite sure if she believed in the threat / trusted them. When Jon and Jorah are both in danger, she realizes this is real, she has feelings for both of these people, and flies down.

What has changed about her belief since them leaving and her getting a note from someone, relayed from someone else, of a cry for help? It wasn't worth risking resources until it was. Its not like she didn't know Jon and Jorah were GOING TO BE IN DANGER. Their plan was to march into barely survivable cold, find a massive army of zombies, grab one, and outrun the rest back to the wall. If you can't bear the thought of losing them, that probably was not a wise plan.

[Dadding]

Nevyn, on 21 August 2017 - 07:02 PM, said:

Dadding, on 21 August 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

2. Gendry running, raven flying, dragon flying was too fast / time travel: According to a post on reddit, a pigeon could make the journey in something like 1.5 days (and ravens are faster, also I read something about ravens being even faster in ASOIAF universe) a dragon could make the journey in about 6 hours. Give or take a little bit. We see the gang go to sleep at least once, so they're there for quite a while. With enough food it's not that far fetched to survive that long.

They have a seemingly multiday walking trek out from the wall over uneven icy terrain. How many days? Unknown. But far enough that the arrowhead mountain can't be seen from the giant wall, nor as soon as they depart. Gendry (who is suffering from the cold, has never been north, and who Jon randomly decided was fastest without ever seeing him run) runs all the way back, not collapsing until about 50 feet from the wall. How long did THAT take. Then he is barely conscious, says something about a raven, but hasn't even given the message yet.

The guard have to revive him, get the message, and then send it via Raven. By the first scale of map I saw, the raven has to fly about 2100 miles from Eastwatch to Dragonstone. 36 hours would mean ravens flying at FIFTY EIGHT miles an hour. Your dragon is moving at 360 miles an hour (more since they aren't AT eastwatch) with a rider on its back who doesn't even have oxygen or freaking earmuffs. And this is before we get into how long to get the message relayed to her, summon her children, and provision for the trip, nor how long to search from dragonback as the raven will NOT have had coordinates.

If you can't admit that all of this is at least stretching plausibility, the issue is you. The writers took a cheap storytelling shortcut (they have taken a number this year) to get the key story elements they wanted shoehorned into the right amount of screen time. And the scenes do look cool. But trying to argue this all makes sense sounds ridiculous.

Quote

5. Why did the Night King not attack the big dragon with all the people on it? He throws a spear at the dragon breathing fire, and it explodes. Maybe that's important, maybe it needs to be breathing fire. Maybe the Night King wanted that dragon in particular because it's the weakest / smallest so it's the easiest to take down. Maybe he's a greenseer and knows that big dragon has already been shot at and might have learned to dodge. Maybe Night King is omniscient and has some other reason for doing this.

Except he throws the second spear at the big non fire breathing dragon with all the people.

Quote

8. Why didn't Danny just fly down and get a wight instead of this group of people? Because she wasn't quite sure if she believed in the threat / trusted them. When Jon and Jorah are both in danger, she realizes this is real, she has feelings for both of these people, and flies down.

What has changed about her belief since them leaving and her getting a note from someone, relayed from someone else, of a cry for help? It wasn't worth risking resources until it was. Its not like she didn't know Jon and Jorah were GOING TO BE IN DANGER. Their plan was to march into barely survivable cold, find a massive army of zombies, grab one, and outrun the rest back to the wall. If you can't bear the thought of losing them, that probably was not a wise plan.

I admit that there are some parts that are less believable than others, and I may have pushed back more than is strictly required, but it's a Fantasy show that requires suspension of disbelief already, and if we were to judge any other show by these standards, they wouldn't hold up at all either.

We don't know how far away from the wall they are, but if we assume they took a circuitous journey (further slowed down by Thoros' injuries, and dragging a sled behind them), it might be plausible that he could run back in 4-5 hours. Maybe he didn't skip leg day on his boat trek from 3 seasons ago. The point is, it's possible, since we don't know exactly how far they are.

Here's one of the reddit threads discussing the raven travel.

The second spear is dodged, maybe Drogon is a spear-dodging expert now. Maybe Viserion is a noob-dragon who doesn't know how to dodge. Maybe the Night King needed the dragon to crash into the water so that they wouldn't burn up / be burned by Danny and Co. so he had to aim at the dragon coming at him, instead of the dragon on the rock.

Danny now has a person she knows and trusts (Jorah) who is 100% in danger, not just potentially in danger. If someone asked me to risk my bacon to go to some place with some people to fight against some threat, I probably wouldn't. If I sent my buddy up to investigate and his life was in danger and I had the means to stop it, suddenly the magical undead army of frosty destiny would seem real to me.

I'm not saying it's a perfect season, none of them have been, but I just think people are nitpicking little issues that have, maybe not 100% perfectly reasonable explanations, but potential explanations nonetheless.

EDIT: You've also got to consider that these show writers went into this thinking they were just adapting a book. Then the books stopped coming and it was crunch time to resolve all these plot points that they didn't even come up with in the first place. I mean, I think they did a great job all things considered.

This post has been edited by Dadding: 21 August 2017 - 07:23 PM

[Nevyn]

If Jorah is worth risking yourself and dragons to save, and you do not yet consider the war vs the dead worth risking yourself or your dragons, how about don't let him go on the mission?



And a little suspension of disbelief here and there is fine. But the more often and more obviously you rely on it, the more complaints you will get. When the story moved slow, you got a real sense of the time cost of travel. But if you go back to the Kingsmoot last season, and then try to do a time lapse of how far in this world everyone has managed to travel back and forth, things are getting ridiculous. The show has now abandoned all pretense about worrying about continuity or how long things take. And it can get annoying.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 21 August 2017 - 07:49 PM

[End of Disc One]

Down South, on 21 August 2017 - 07:55 PM, said:

I'm a be a mad mofo if Bronn doesn't get Sexy Sand this Sunday. Probably won't be much sexy left about her which will make it all the more romantic.

As Tormund said, you got to make do with what you have.

[Terez]

amphibian, on 21 August 2017 - 02:01 PM, said:

Do people think Benjen is dead dead or just tackled by the wights?

The after-episode discussion suggests he's dead dead.

Nevyn, on 21 August 2017 - 03:08 PM, said:

Terez, on 21 August 2017 - 03:52 AM, said:

Oh, that's another thing. Beric wanted Jon to kill the Night King because he probably raised most or all of the wights from the dead, and Jon's reasoning for not doing it was that they needed to take that one wight back with them. Like, what? If you kill the Night King and his whole army, there's no need for proof they exist!

Well, on that one, lets be fair.

Jon's point was that if they die trying to kill the night king, they will fail at their in theory more achievable mission of getting the evidence to King's Landing.

If that was his point, he should have said so. He did not. Also, at that point their chances of survival were incredibly slim—or, they should have been—so it should have been worth the risk to try to take him down.