[worry]

What's weird is that "the ages" isn't that long a time. Like Robert Baratheon takes the crown less than 300 years after Aegon I's conquest of Westeros. That's not that many generations, even in an era where people regularly die of old age in their 60s. They really got a shocking amount of incest done in that time, especially since it seems a lot of these relationships were romantic rather than convenient...or at least both. It's also unclear -- in this fictional world -- how often Targaryen 'genetic' flaws come as a result of the dwindling dragons. There's a real chicken-egg thing going on with the magic (specifically dragons) and the madness, for instance.

[Malankazooie]

Nevyn, on 03 September 2017 - 02:40 AM, said:

Incest has been suggested as helping lead to madness among Targaryen

But it won't give people in Western the ewss

Cersei and Jamie was a big deal because it was also adultery and meant the heirs weren't the Kings children and thus not heirs. The king would have killed them.

Oh yeah, there's the whole legitimacy to the throne caveat. And why I think Gendry is going to be a stick in someone's craw, know what I'm sayin?

And yeah, I guess the House Targaryen incest could have manifested itself as generational madness. Yikes, does this mean that Dany may go all dragon fire loco!?

[Cause]

worry, on 03 September 2017 - 02:41 AM, said:

What's weird is that "the ages" isn't that long a time. Like Robert Baratheon takes the crown less than 300 years after Aegon I's conquest of Westeros. That's not that many generations, even in an era where people regularly die of old age in their 60s. They really got a shocking amount of incest done in that time, especially since it seems a lot of these relationships were romantic rather than convenient...or at least both. It's also unclear -- in this fictional world -- how often Targaryen 'genetic' flaws come as a result of the dwindling dragons. There's a real chicken-egg thing going on with the magic (specifically dragons) and the madness, for instance.

All valyrian noble houses practiced incest since the start of the freehold. It's implied they needed or wanted to keep the bloodlines pure since it seems to okay a role in how they control the dragons.

[worry]

Indeed. But was there always madness? Were there always birth defects? Or were these the results of keeping dragons in captivity, their dwindling down to the size of dogs and cats, and the overall depletion of magic from the world?

[Maark Abbott]

Well I've seen the latest episodes and I really don't have high hopes for the last season now.

[Cause]

worry, on 03 September 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

Indeed. But was there always madness? Were there always birth defects? Or were these the results of keeping dragons in captivity, their dwindling down to the size of dogs and cats, and the overall depletion of magic from the world?

Are we talking about the targyreans or the dragons? Not sure if they had problems before. But I'm addition to madness one of the blackfyre was a conjoined twin.

The dragons dwindling is implied to be that yes captivity stunted their growth but I think one of the best tidbits that I hope is expanded on is that the maesters may habe been poiaoning the dragons im secret for decades or centuries to remove magic from the world. May have stunted their growth.

[worry]

I'm talking about the Targaryens.

[Cause]

So your suggesting the decline of the dragons caused the decline of the targyreans health as well?

[worry]

I'm not suggesting, I'm wondering.

[Maark Abbott]

worry, on 04 September 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

I'm not suggesting, I'm wondering.

Or maybe

You're

Worrying

[Gorefest]

worry, on 04 September 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

I'm not suggesting, I'm wondering.

I think there could well be something there. The decline and eventual disappearance of the dragons does seem to affect the Targaryens. They seem to have a need to bond with dragons. Viserys keeps referring to himself as being/having the 'blood of the dragon'. Aerion drank wildfire, believing it would turn him into a dragon. Aerys II was going to blow up King's Landing, believing that he would rise from the ashes as a dragon. Aenys I who lived in a time when there were still dragons is described as being weak in early childhood, but once he bonded with his dragon he rapidly became stronger and healthier.

[End of Disc One]

Malankazooie, on 01 September 2017 - 09:21 PM, said:

Awwww. They are legitimately buddies off screen. Man, I wish I was a member of the "Brotherhood without Banjos", hanging out in a dusky tavern, drinking beers with them and spinning yarn after yarn of amazing adventures, and striking up a tune when the inspiration hits us.

Love that song

[Cause]

Gorefest, on 05 September 2017 - 12:11 PM, said:

worry, on 04 September 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

I'm not suggesting, I'm wondering.

I think there could well be something there. The decline and eventual disappearance of the dragons does seem to affect the Targaryens. They seem to have a need to bond with dragons. Viserys keeps referring to himself as being/having the 'blood of the dragon'. Aerion drank wildfire, believing it would turn him into a dragon. Aerys II was going to blow up King's Landing, believing that he would rise from the ashes as a dragon. Aenys I who lived in a time when there were still dragons is described as being weak in early childhood, but once he bonded with his dragon he rapidly became stronger and healthier.

Except for the last of all of that could just indicate incest madness and a family history of being dragon riders. I'd say we don't have eno hgh info to speculate about a connection

[Abyss]

Put a slightly different way, the Targaryen's mental health issues may have been less significant when they could rely on dragons to ensure everyone obeyed them regardless of how bugnuts they were.

Without the dragons, their own issues more or less destroyed them.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Having said all that, I did think Dany's speech about how they were like everyone else once they shut the dragons away was a nice moment. Jon's dialogue in response was a bit cringeworthy but some nice stuff from her.

[Malankazooie]

Hey guys. I was thinking more on Sam's narrative. So he was sent to Oldtown to study at the Citadel to glean as much information as possible about the Others (White Walkers). After given menial tasks and being thwarted by the Archmaester he gets frustrated and leaves and returns to the north to Winterfell. We then find out that Bran seems to have all the knowledge required to aid in the coming battle.

So, was the trip that Sam took down to Oldtown (with Gilly and child) just an elaborate plot just so Sam could come into possession of his father's Valyrian sword for the battle to come?

I welcome any and all replies (and respect any and all viewpoints). No judgment here. Thanks in advance. Take Care. Have a great day.

[Andorion]

Malankazooie, on 30 October 2017 - 01:23 AM, said:

Hey guys. I was thinking more on Sam's narrative. So he was sent to Oldtown to study at the Citadel to glean as much information as possible about the Others (White Walkers). After given menial tasks and being thwarted by the Archmaester he gets frustrated and leaves and returns to the north to Winterfell. We then find out that Bran seems to have all the knowledge required to aid in the coming battle.

So, was the trip that Sam took down to Oldtown (with Gilly and child) just an elaborate plot just so Sam could come into possession of his father's Valyrian sword for the battle to come?

I welcome any and all replies (and respect any and all viewpoints). No judgment here. Thanks in advance. Take Care. Have a great day.

I hope that wasn't the only point because the sword plot line was handled extremely badly.

His father hates him, insults him, considers him to be a disgrace. He steals the sword. And Randyll Tarly, this proud powerful lord just let it go? His cart would have been ridden down by cavalry the next day. There is no way he would have made it to Oldtown with that sword.

Also that entire episode was cringeworthy as it was nothing but character regression for Sam. All he had accomplished at the Wall disappeared. He did not stand up for himself at all. His father frowned at him, and he was back to being the bumbling coward of season 1.

[worry]

Bran didn't have enough. It was Bran w/ R+L=J and it was Gilly (let's be honest) w/ R & L were legit married. It's this combination that matters.

Of course I do agree w/ both of you that the sword will have to be vital at some point too. It would be crazy for it not to be.

Re: Ando's other points, I am 180-degrees from him on one aspect -- Sam reverting to cowardly in front of his father is absolutely more truthful than some big confrontation. But I do agree that Sam getting away with the sword was TV Magic.

[Andorion]

worry, on 30 October 2017 - 01:45 AM, said:

Bran didn't have enough. It was Bran w/ R+L=J and it was Gilly (let's be honest) w/ R & L were legit married. It's this combination that matters.

Of course I do agree w/ both of you that the sword will have to be vital at some point too. It would be crazy for it not to be.

Re: Ando's other points, I am 180-degrees from him on one aspect -- Sam reverting to cowardly in front of his father is absolutely more truthful than some big confrontation. But I do agree that Sam getting away with the sword was TV Magic.

Why though? Sam had done incredible things in the North. He has killed a Whitewalker. He engineered John's election. After all of that I would have thought that Tarly and his concerns would have seemed incredibly petty to him. That is the point of character growth - that which was big and scary before doesn't really matter any more.

[Malankazooie]

Yeah, I can see Sam reverting back in regards to his father. Unless he's gone through a lot of therapy those feelings of inadequacy in the presence of his father will probably return.

Excellent points also about needing Sam and Bran and Gilly to put the data together to get the the conclusions that were revealed. Nice job guys. Thanks for helping me get my mind around it all. Because yeah, it would have just been annoying if the whole shebang as it relates to Sam was just to come back with a sword that can put the smack down on white walkers.