[Gorefest]

Not really seeing that as a particular problem. Dany finally saw the threat and lost a dragon, so her now changing her mind and offering help is not odd. Jon had the discussion with Tormund about Mance not bending the knee and it not working out well for his people, plus he saw Dany's dedication to helping people instead of just desiring to rule and he now thinks she is a worthy queen so he is happy to bend the knee. Of all the issues you can take a shot at, this seems like the least of them.

[Malankazooie]

Hey guys, the season finale is titled "The Dragon and the Wolf". You know what that means, don't you?

It has a running time of 79 minutes 43 seconds.

[worry]

It means they have finally settled contract disputes with Ghost.

[worry]

Is that a crossover post with the politics thread?

[Cause]

worry, on 22 August 2017 - 08:22 PM, said:

It means they have finally settled contract disputes with Ghost.

EPIC

[amphibian]

The weird thing about the time/speed/distance thing is that if there was just a character somewhere that said "4 fookin' days later" or "2 fookin' days" in various places within the same episode, a ton of the shit-talking would be cut out.

I know Erikson gradually gave up on any semblance of signaling accurate-ish timelines in Malazan, but this show has truncated and merged storylines as it went on. The argument of having certain scenes that take place at different times interspersed within each other for editing purposes has weight though. That's dramatic effect, but something as simple as characters signalling dissatisfaction with how long stuff takes inside a scene/storyline would both place the the scene and allow us to not be bothered so much by the fast-forwarding of everything. That starts shaking the suspension of disbelief and a shaken suspension needs bolstering or it all falls to pieces.

That constant shaking by blipping through what has previously been something that matters greatly (how long and difficult journeys to places are) within the series bothers me more than shit like Jon deciding to bend the knee after being rescued by Dany and the conversation with Tormund. Handwaving stuff is ok in small doses, but when big chunks of seasons are spent with Arya and several others on long, portentous journeys previously, a habit is built. And when that habit is broken, the writers are making the show break its own established rules.

[Malankazooie]

Uh,so, does Gendry have a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne? He's still alive and now he is out and about from pounding hot metal. Will he be reunited with Melisandre? Will Sansa be reunited with lemon cakes? Will Jon and Arya be reunited and continue their big (bastard) brother and little sister relationship? I dunno. You experts weigh in, please?

[worry]

The Baratheons are also descendants of the Targaryens! Gendry will be king.

[Tsundoku]

amphibian, on 22 August 2017 - 11:03 PM, said:

The weird thing about the time/speed/distance thing is that if there was just a character somewhere that said "4 fookin' days later" or "2 fookin' days" in various places within the same episode, a ton of the shit-talking would be cut out. I know Erikson gradually gave up on any semblance of signaling accurate-ish timelines in Malazan, but this show has truncated and merged storylines as it went on. The argument of having certain scenes that take place at different times interspersed within each other for editing purposes has weight though. That's dramatic effect, but something as simple as characters signalling dissatisfaction with how long stuff takes inside a scene/storyline would both place the the scene and allow us to not be bothered so much by the fast-forwarding of everything. That starts shaking the suspension of disbelief and a shaken suspension needs bolstering or it all falls to pieces. That constant shaking by blipping through what has previously been something that matters greatly (how long and difficult journeys to places are) within the series bothers me more than shit like Jon deciding to bend the knee after being rescued by Dany and the conversation with Tormund. Handwaving stuff is ok in small doses, but when big chunks of seasons are spent with Arya and several others on long, portentous journeys previously, a habit is built. And when that habit is broken, the writers are making the show break its own established rules.

Yes! You don't have to film each footstep to give the impression of time passing, just as long as you give the impression of time passing! A simple 30 second non-musical montage could do it.
It's one of the things that annoys me in lots of films/TV shows in all sorts of genres.

Malankazooie, on 23 August 2017 - 05:44 AM, said:

He's still alive and now he is out and about from pounding hot metal. Will he be reunited with Melisandre?

That's a metaphor, right?
Lord of Light aside, is that pounding hot metal or cold iron?

BTW, found this when trying to get some idea of map scale:

http://static1.busin...ecomparemap.png

Think it works? Is this better?

http://awoiaf.wester...fIceandFire.png

Maybe I should get out my "World of Ice and Fire" and see if there's some sort of answer in there ...

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 23 August 2017 - 07:12 AM

[Maark Abbott]

End of Disc One, on 22 August 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 22 August 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

"I feel entitled to rule because of my name, bend the knee"
"No"
"I feel entitled to rule because of my name, bend the knee"
"No"
"I feel entitled to rule because of my name, bend the knee"
"No"
"I feel entitled to rule because of my name, bend the knee"
"Oh all right then"

*rolleyes*

I hated that too, but didn't want to say anything to start an argument.

I refer to her as Westeros Trump now because so far her character this season has been her getting stroppy and invadey with people who won't bend the knee. She has the makings of her father, a mad tyrant who holds a false sense of entitlement based on her name alone. Of all the characters needing to be killed off, she's the top of the list. Never thought Cersei would be more likeable than anyone else in the show but HEY DIDDLY HO.

"Lemme tell ya folks, bend the knee, bend it onto great soil, the best soil, you'll see, Cersei, she doesn't do soil at all, not one soil, have you seen the soil she does? It's the worst soil, the worst."

[Gorefest]

Malankazooie, on 23 August 2017 - 05:44 AM, said:

Uh,so, does Gendry have a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne? He's still alive and now he is out and about from pounding hot metal. Will he be reunited with Melisandre? Will Sansa be reunited with lemon cakes? Will Jon and Arya be reunited and continue their big (bastard) brother and little sister relationship? I dunno. You experts weigh in, please?

Gendry is a bastard, so no. He never was formally recognised, which in Westeros means you have no rights.

[Aptorian]

Is this really true?

Why then was there a plot to kill him? Wasn't the point that if he was alive then he could have contested Joffrey's claim the throne since there were rumors that Cersei's children weren't legitimate either.

[Cause]

Gorefest, on 23 August 2017 - 12:08 PM, said:

Malankazooie, on 23 August 2017 - 05:44 AM, said:

Uh,so, does Gendry have a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne? He's still alive and now he is out and about from pounding hot metal. Will he be reunited with Melisandre? Will Sansa be reunited with lemon cakes? Will Jon and Arya be reunited and continue their big (bastard) brother and little sister relationship? I dunno. You experts weigh in, please?

Gendry is a bastard, so no. He never was formally recognised, which in Westeros means you have no rights.

I'm not sure anyone will be approaching the westeros constitutional court to debate the fine points.

The leading houses of dorne, the reach, riverlands and stormalnds are dead. The north and the Vale are in revolt. The crown is at war with daenerys. The leadership of the faith of the seven was nuked. Winter is coming. Food is scarce. If anything the show is doing a shit job of portraying how chaotic things should be.

If their is a throne for gendry when this is all over being a bastatd will be the least of his problems in claiming it.

[Gorefest]

Alternative Goose, on 23 August 2017 - 12:24 PM, said:

Is this really true?

Why then was there a plot to kill him? Wasn't the point that if he was alive then he could have contested Joffrey's claim the throne since there were rumors that Cersei's children weren't legitimate either.

Well, the TV show is its own baffling universe so I cannot really comment on that, if they would want to make him a claimant I am sure they would find a way. In the TV series it is Joffrey who orders the murder of all Robert's bastards, assumingly because he fears that they somehow can find legitimacy via other means. Or just because he is a total dick. But as far as I know both in the books and the tv show Gendry can only be legitimised by a ruling king or queen, which sort of defeats the point because that would mean Cersei (no chance) or whomever takes over the throne (assumingly a Targaryen, in which case the Baratheon claim is meaningless anyway due to conquest, unless Gendry plans a rebellion).

[Nevyn]

Gorefest, on 23 August 2017 - 12:08 PM, said:

Malankazooie, on 23 August 2017 - 05:44 AM, said:

Uh,so, does Gendry have a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne? He's still alive and now he is out and about from pounding hot metal. Will he be reunited with Melisandre? Will Sansa be reunited with lemon cakes? Will Jon and Arya be reunited and continue their big (bastard) brother and little sister relationship? I dunno. You experts weigh in, please?

Gendry is a bastard, so no. He never was formally recognised, which in Westeros means you have no rights.

Then again, Cersei is both a woman and not a Baratheon at all. She also has no claim yet still sits the throne and there are lords who just sort of eat it because she has power, they have no claim, and they fear the "foreign born Targaryen".

Bastards have no claim until they do. If the lords currently supporting the Lannisters believed he was Robert's son and chose to follow him, he'd have a claim.

But he doesn't have an army, and has thrown in with Jon who threw in with Dany. The show will not go there. But depending on the lords assembled at the upcoming gathering, in theory Gendry's testimony could weaken or undermine Cersei's support (the idea both that again, her children were not Baratheons, and that her son set out to murder Baratheon bastards).

[Gorefest]

Nevyn, on 23 August 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

Bastards have no claim until they do. If the lords currently supporting the Lannisters believed he was Robert's son and chose to follow him, he'd have a claim.

Not according to Westeros society's rules. Illegitimacy is a very big deal in the SoIaF universe. Cersei has a legitimate claim as wife and mother of reigning kings. Gendry does not, unless a formal decree by a king or queen says otherwise.

But as I said, the show lately seems to play fast and loose with the rules more often these days, so who knows.

[Nevyn]

Gorefest, on 23 August 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 23 August 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

Bastards have no claim until they do. If the lords currently supporting the Lannisters believed he was Robert's son and chose to follow him, he'd have a claim.

Not according to Westeros society's rules. Illegitimacy is a very big deal in the SoIaF universe. Cersei has a legitimate claim as wife and mother of reigning kings. Gendry does not, unless a formal decree by a king or queen says otherwise.

But as I said, the show lately seems to play fast and loose with the rules more often these days, so who knows.

Since when do wives and mothers have a legitimate claim in Westeros society rules?

Cersei has the claim because she took it. All rules, in Westeros and in the society it was based off of, are malleable to power and the will of the lords supporting it. Robert had no claim until he won. Jon is King of the North and his last name is still Snow. Technically, right now, he can legitimize himself. Renly for awhile had the biggest army in the war of 5 kings, and by the rules of Westerosi society he had zero case to be made where he could be King over Stannis.

A bastard can be legitamized by their father as well as by their sovereign. That doesn't really help Gendry, but again, it does not matter. There is no supreme court. Cersei whiped out the church, which was malleable anyway in previous generations. If he could convince the right people to back him, Gendry could be king. For that matter, so could Bronn or Hot Pie. They just have significantly longer odds.

Again, it is very likely moot. There is enough contention and Gendry is backing Jon, so the show won't go there. But there is no unbreakable law locking out Gendry. Westeros' rules are traditions, and they mainly dictate how likely you are to get the support you need to win a fight for the throne.

[Nevyn]

Down South, on 23 August 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

Roberts bastards were killed because of their black hair so no one would connect the dots like Arryn and Ned did.

Plus simple fear of their blood. Bastards are still dangerous.

In the show, it is strongly implied in conversation between Tyrion and Cersei that Joffrey ordered the killings. Sort of as a make up gesture for taunting his mother about them. Or to shore up his claim. Or just because he a douche who loves killing things, but it happened after he taunted Cersei and she slapped him.

[Malankazooie]

Can't remember the last time I ate at Arby's, but I'm going to have to give this a try.

You Can Get a Whole Turkey Leg at the Drive-Thru for the 'Game of Thrones' Finale

Is Arby's international or only available in the US?

[Nevyn]

Thought this would be fun to throw in.


A CNN writer with no idea why internal consistency is important making fun of our enjoyable nitpickery


Memo to Brian Lowry: When your show sets up a really suspenseful moment, or a really dire circumstance for a character, the suspense and the emotion, and the relief when it is resolved, come from the viewer/readers understanding and expectation of what is possible in the world.

For example, when you take a small party north of the wall to kidnap a zombie from an undead army , everything the show has told you for 7 seasons tells you that these characters are isolated, and very little help is coming. They need to figure their own way out.

So when the answer is a Gendry/Raven/Dragon relay race, it kind of undermines the moment, and how it felt to have those characters go into that danger in the first place.

And the actual spelling out of the impossibility of it is not nitpicky, it is simply the nerdy argument that results when anyone tries to defend a moment that FELT wrong.