[Cause]

did envy really control the seguleh.

She says to krull that controlling them requires a large amount of her energy. A few lines later she goes so far as to say they wont be controlled and that she wonders who is humouring whom.

Further she initially said that they tried to kill her to relieve the boredom of the trip this must be false. Because as she explains to lanas tog why the seguleh have not challenged her they wont attack woman unless attacked first. obviously than they could not have attacked lady envy.

further we see them defy her orders such as attacking tool etc all the time. But however they must be under some control as they are said to flinch when she threatens them and they were after all waiting with her.

Finally lady envy said she had gathered krulls players for him as he asked. so I presume she purposly found and ensorcerelled them. but how much control does she have?

wow that was long :eek:

[Tenaka Khan]

I think she does not control them all the time, only whne she really wants them to something or not to do something. Their flinching indicates that she probably taught them a lesson concerning her power when they first met, so they usually obey her and only go against her command when they really feel necessary to do so (for example when settling the hierarchy matters).

The fact that she feels strained when controlling them might be linked to the fact that they are singularly willful characters. They ought to be, given that their whole culture and life revolves around honig their combat skills. Achieving a level of skill they obviously possess requires not only physical strength but also a very strong and focused mind. There are other examples where sheer willpower enables people to overcome 'natural' barriers, such as Iron Bars and his ability take a large amount of physical damage or Karsa when he fights the Deragoth.

When she is wondering about who is humouring whom, I guess she refers to the fact that the Seguleh play their role as mere servants, yet knowing that when push came to shove they might have an edge. Since they have a mission to fulfill however, they show restraint, because Envy is also travelling in the right direction and because she is a handy ally. If Envy would have tried to bend their will and forcing them to, let's say travel north instead of south (can't remember where they exactly wanted to go), they would have opposed her directly I guess. And that would have likely been disastrous for both parties.

phew, guess I'm in a chatty mood hope it helps

[Abyss]

I figured there was an ongoing struggle, at least between Mok and Envy. She had the sheer power to kill them, but it seemed Envy was having difficulty controlling Mok, tho' she keep him unconscious for a while.

The Seguleh are interesting. It's not as tho ninja'esque uber warrior cult types are novel in fantasy lit. Far from it when you factor in the Aiel, the Bloodguard and assorted other examples. But I enjoyed how SE gave just bits and pieces about them and their culture, and threw in a few links like Rake's visit and the missing Second to tie them into the larger picture.

- Abyss, thought the lipstick accented the mask nicely, but would have picked a different colour.

[Tenaka Khan]

I thought it only started to become a constant struggle for control when Mok wanted to challenge Tool, so she kept him unconscious afterwards.

What made me wonder a bit in MoI is the fact that Envy, her pups, Tool and the Seguleh manage to almost wipe out several of the Pannion armies, while the alliance between Malazan, Rake and Brood have quite some troubles with their battles. Rake and his Tiste should well be more powerful than Envy alone. Hmm, well, thinking about it, their only real confrontation was at Coral, with the Seer and his matron involved, so that might explain things... never mind then.

And yes, I do enjoy talking to myself sometimes

[Cause]

no envy and the seguleh and the dogs and tool you have to realise are incredibly powerfull. also while the malazans faced armies 50000 strong they had to deal with armies close to 5000. But I agree with you on one point as good as they are how can three seguleh not be surrounded and slaughtered. they cant face evry direction at once, But I love them anyway

On a side note am the only one who finds the idea of the aile ridiculous. no matter how skilled you are if you not gonna wera armour a peasant with a bow could you.

[Folken]

No you're not alone. It's about the only REAL complaint I have with his writing. The whole difference with power levels. Karsa just KILLS TWO Deragoth's with his bare hands. It's all confusing to me, so I give up on that aspect. Point is theres very strong people in this world and basically everyone can be killed by everyone.

[vaiski]

Rake and Brood didn't directly attack Pannion armies, whereas Envy showed no such restraint.
When Dujek heard that Pannion was being opposed by T'lan Imass and two dogs, he thought that it had to be a bonecaster.. so he counts one bonecaster capable of facing armies. Imagine what the armies of T'lan Imass should be capable of.
And ofcourse, the armies of Imass are being slaughtered at Assail
Confusing, to say at least.

[Abyss]

Couple of points...

Rake/Brood/Dujek and co did NOT fight an extended campaign against the Seer. They engaged his forces at Capustan and then at Coral. Skirmishes along the way were between 'normal' troops, but this was not an extended war. This was basically two battles between several thousand 'normals' where a handful of Ascendents and mages got in on the action.

Envy and co engaged in a series of gradually increasing battles, but my impression was that generally they caused enough damage that the small armied fighting them eventually ran for it.

That said, Garath and Baaljaag were both injured and the Seguleh, tho' they never took serious damage, were also pretty torn up. But you have to figure with the daughter of an Elder God and a Draconean Ascendant throwing around magic, while an Elder God-possessed uberwolf and a reluctant Hound of Shadow run around chewing on the heavy troops, even without the Tlan Imass First Sword running around chopping people up, the 'mere' Seguleh didn't have much serious opposition. I'm thinking the three of them together could avoid being swarmedunder by the Tenescowri. And if they did, well, we saw Envy fix a platoon of dying Bridgeburners in seconds. All of which is to say, they weren't exactly lightweights.

- Abyss, middleweight.