[Briar King]

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This post has been edited by .-‘: 05 October 2021 - 11:31 PM

[Tsundoku]

High Geek of Crawfish, on 25 September 2016 - 05:05 PM, said:

Idk when I ll finish cause DD2 is really boring.

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[polishgenius]

Just watched the first ep, very impressed. Great performances, especially by Mahershala Ali as Coppermouth.

High Geek of Crawfish, on 30 September 2016 - 06:24 PM, said:

I'm a bit confused on timeline of show in regards to JJ/CW though.

It's obviously after Jessica Jones. I don't think Civil War has come into it as yet, and I doubt it will.

[polishgenius]

'The Incident' is, in the TV 'verse, New York street-level code for the end of Avengers 1. Came up in the first season of Daredevil, might also have been namedropped in JJ I think?

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 30 September 2016 - 08:05 PM

[Vengeance]

High Geek of Crawfish, on 30 September 2016 - 06:24 PM, said:

Ep 1 very boring till last few mins. I'm a bit confused on timeline of show in regards to JJ/CW though.

Haha

Timelines...wipes a tear away... ahhh timelines...


We don't pay attention to no stupid timelines. It's like malazan has taught you nothing.

[Tiste Simeon]

As far as I can tell this is all pre-JJ and the incident was the Avengers 1 when they trashed half of New York. I can't remember how JJ ended but I get the impression that he hasn't met her yet. For example, he is still on about his wife being killed and in JJ he finds out she did it under compulsion IIRC.

The timeline is weird though because even though DD, JJ & LC are all happening at roughly the same time, there is no mention really of the other in each series. Obviously Luke is in JJ, so that is the exception, but I think DD got a brief mention in JJ but in his own site is big news. Similarly, the bad guy in JJ (don't remember his name) becomes huge in her site but is completely ignored in DD, which I find strange. Unless I missed something...

Anyway, I am loving LC so far! In some ways it is quite slow paced but that is by no means boring. The characters are all fascinating and have great interaction with each other. The music is superb, and each episodes song in the club has been a wonderful addition to it.

Spoiler

Definitely called that cop being on Cottonmouths payroll!

[polishgenius]

Tiste Simeon, on 01 October 2016 - 07:03 AM, said:

I can't remember how JJ ended but I get the impression that he hasn't met her yet.

They mention her in the second scene of the first episode in the conversation with Pop. Not by name but it's definitely the events of JJ they're referring to.

[Tsundoku]

Just saw eps 1-2. Really, really good.

I'm calling it now - Mahershala Ali for Best Supporting Actor Emmy.

[Morgoth]

The camera work in this show is amazing. The scenes, the positiong and the lighting. It's all so great!

And man, the guy who plays Cottonmouth is incredible.

[Tiste Simeon]

High Geek of Crawfish, on 01 October 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

On Ep 5 now. The song in this was great. Loved the origin Ep to.

Tiste what Ep is your spoiler about? I don't want to click it yet.

Ok on timeline in Ep 5.

Spoiler

Rosario(boing)'s character shows back up mentioning both DD2 and JJ events. Plus Shades just confirmed Incident is Av1.

Just watched that EP, yeah you're right re: timeline. Cannot for the life of me remember what happened on JJ & why no one on any of these other sites references it.

[polishgenius]

Tiste Simeon, on 02 October 2016 - 05:11 PM, said:

Just watched that EP, yeah you're right re: timeline. Cannot for the life of me remember what happened on JJ & why no one on any of these other sites references it.

It wasn't an especially high-profile chain of events, in-universe. It's quite plausible for no-one apart from Luke himself, who has credible reasons for not wanting to talk about it much, to not even know who JJ is at this point. Daredevil caused considerably more ruckus, and his activities are mentioned even less on this show.


But the real reason they don't cross-reference each other too heavily is to prevent people from having to watch one to watch another. Pure pragmatism from a viewer-reaching perspective.

[Vengeance]

As for the time line.

Spoiler

After DD1. Before JJ. In JJ his wife is dead.in LC1 she isn't yet. In the first episode the cousin/council women mentions what happened to Fisk. So after DD1.The incident is avg1.

[Aptorian]

Vengeance, on 03 October 2016 - 02:33 AM, said:

As for the time line.

Spoiler

After DD1. Before JJ. In JJ his wife is dead.in LC1 she isn't yet. In the first episode the cousin/council women mentions what happened to Fisk. So after DD1.The incident is avg1.

I've only watched up until episode 6 so far but the show is current. It does not take place before Cage's wife died.

Spoiler

In the very first episode Luke Cage references being shot in the head by Jessica Jones. In episode 6 the latino nurse from the other shows returns and references keeping him alive after he was shot in the head. She also references the events of the ending of Daredevil season 2 where the hospital was attacked.

[Dadding]

I'm on episode 8 and loving it so far, as to timeline. It takes place after JJ and DD1, and sort of happening at the same time as some of DD2.

[Dolmen 2.0]

This show is everything I hoped it would be.

Much better than DD2 imho.

Mahershala Ali as Cottonmouth is killing it.

I think Colter and Ali play off each other perfectly.

[Aptorian]

Thought the first 6 episodes were okay. Not amazing but they were building towards something.

Though the final 7 episodes were garbage. The manuscripts went right down the toilet, with long pointless flash back sequences and soul searching meant to build depth but it just felt artificial. That whole hostage situation thing was 80s level season filler dross.

In terms of escalating powers, I feel like Cage's story has shown how weak the whole "heroes fighting societal issues" story angle is becoming.

1. With the powers Cage possesses, the season's obstacles are trivial. Making the writers come up with ass-backwards reasons for Cage to be challenged.

2. Obviously Cage can't kill or arrest people so he can't actually stop any criminals. Meanwhile the criminals are free to target anybody Cage loves, making the whole "no secret identity" angle terrible.

Generally I would have preferred a less pro-active, more selfish Luke Cage that knows he can't save everybody and as such just goes about his day. More "The Wire" and less Spiderman-like guilty conscience.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Apt, on 03 October 2016 - 03:04 PM, said:

Thought the first 6 episodes were okay. Not amazing but they were building towards something.

Though the final 7 episodes were garbage. The manuscripts went right down the toilet, with long pointless flash back sequences and soul searching meant to build depth but it just felt artificial. That whole hostage situation thing was 80s level season filler dross.

In terms of escalating powers, I feel like Cage's story has shown how weak the whole "heroes fighting societal issues" story angle is becoming.

1. With the powers Cage possesses, the season's obstacles are trivial. Making the writers come up with ass-backwards reasons for Cage to be challenged.

2. Obviously Cage can't kill or arrest people so he can't actually stop any criminals. Meanwhile the criminals are free to target anybody Cage loves, making the whole "no secret identity" angle terrible.

Generally I would have preferred a less pro-active, more selfish Luke Cage that knows he can't save everybody and as such just goes about his day. More "The Wire" and less Spiderman-like guilty conscience.

I hear this a lot these days.

What Powers/stories are appropriate when dealing with societal issues?

The super hero is modern days Greek God/demi-God. Hercules and Luke Cage are alike.

The Hercules story has been retold many times but when dealing with a strong man archetype we can either go really REALLY big (Carrying Atlasian burdens) or really really small and intimate (redeming the sin of Killing his wife and kids). That's one part of Dwayne Johnsons Hercules I can appreciate over that other travesty screened at the same time.

Luke Cage has to face inner hell because outer hell can't touch him. There's no budget to really challenge a character that powerful. I agree that there needs to be more sway in his morals but I like the fact he tries to be a stand up guy.

Being a good guy is harder to do for a power as selfish as super strength and invulnerability. You can't protect much when you're better meant to destroy.

Of course I know the comics take this down the other route but I can respect what Mike Colter's version of the character is trying to work through.

This post has been edited by Dolmen 2.0: 03 October 2016 - 04:07 PM

[Tapper]

Apt, on 03 October 2016 - 03:04 PM, said:

Thought the first 6 episodes were okay. Not amazing but they were building towards something.

Though the final 7 episodes were garbage. The manuscripts went right down the toilet, with long pointless flash back sequences and soul searching meant to build depth but it just felt artificial. That whole hostage situation thing was 80s level season filler dross.

In terms of escalating powers, I feel like Cage's story has shown how weak the whole "heroes fighting societal issues" story angle is becoming.

1. With the powers Cage possesses, the season's obstacles are trivial. Making the writers come up with ass-backwards reasons for Cage to be challenged.

2. Obviously Cage can't kill or arrest people so he can't actually stop any criminals. Meanwhile the criminals are free to target anybody Cage loves, making the whole "no secret identity" angle terrible.

Generally I would have preferred a less pro-active, more selfish Luke Cage that knows he can't save everybody and as such just goes about his day. More "The Wire" and less Spiderman-like guilty conscience.

I agree that the first half of the series is also what I liked best

Spoiler

(up until the plot takes a back seat to introduce Diamondback, who is more maniac than mastermind).

1. There comes a demand to take heroes down, so there will be someone supplying the means - or at the least offering them a chance in the arms race. It is simple economy, but considering that this particular series is taking place fairly close in time to Avengers 1, .

Spoiler

There's multiple instances of it: in episode 10/11 (when Diamondback does Domingo's den, which totally sounds like a porno) with the kevlar-piercing bullets. There's also the doctor Burnstein or whatever his name is, trying to replicate his experiment. So there's both mundane means and counter-powering up happening. It's becoming an industry.

2. There's probably something like a civilian arrest, but when it comes to the street level heroes, this show actually shows how little they can do and how weak they are in that respect. Daredevil had the same issue once the Kingpin went public: he could mop up all the henchmen but do little that the public would believe. I think what the Netflix series show, is that vigilantism actually doesn't really work. In LC, this is demonstrated best by Cottonmouth's henchmen, who keep dealing arms, keep being in crime no matter how often Cage takes their guns and bends them in loops.

As for Cage being more 'the Wire-like': I guess that is what he was doing up until Reeva's death, perhaps even until just after Jessica Jones season 1. It is other people asking him to step into the limelight, and he does so only on their (well, Pop's) insistence - and can't go back after. It might also tie in where they want to go with Cage - the yellow shirt and tiara, the reference to Power-Man (his father's nickname for him) and 'hero for hire' (which is what he says he is not), the romance with Jessica Jones - either they're ways to say we don't go that way - or they're nudges and hints towards him marrying JJ and teaming up with Daniel Rand as Power-Man and Iron Fist in the future.

[WinterPhoenix]

The timeline really isn't too difficult to gather at least insofar as the Netflix series work as a coherent unit, though there is at least one definite issue. Luke Cage necessarily has to happen after the Jessica Jones and Daredevil 2 because events in both of those series are explicitly mentioned - most clearly by Rosario Dawson's character when she references both Jessica shooting Cage in the head and the Dd2 events at the hospital that led to her leaving her prior employment - this is the cause of some trouble. I think Mariah Dillard's anti-hero speech at Harlem's Paradise references Jones breaking Kilgrave's neck in JJ as well. Exactly how much time has passed since the end of Dd2 can be debated, but at the very least once we first see Claire Temple in Harlem, Luke Cage is happening after the end of Dd2. Cross-referencing seems to have been kept to a minimal level - i.e. just enough to satisfy fans of the underlying 'shared universe' concept and provide a broad idea of timeline - so that viewers don't feel like they have to have seen all that comes before, it's been a successful model thus far and I for one have enjoyed each series to varying degrees. To weigh in on the quality discussion I must say I found the first 6 episodes to be pretty damn great, the death of Cottonmouth and transition to that god awful villain Diamondback, however, really led to a marked drop in quality for the remaining episodes. Ali's performance was really great, much like D'Onofrio and Tennant before him, nonetheless I cannot say I enjoyed this as much as either season of Daredevil.

I can see how the timeline has issues for some regarding how the shows fit into the general MCU continuity especially considering that explicit references to cinematic events outside of 'the incident' - which has been canonically set up as New Yorker slang for the events at the climax of Avengers 1 in the previous Netflix installments - are almost non-existent. Leading a viewer to question whether any of the massive events of later films have actually happened yet. They have for the most part, however, as I get to below, I don't think any Netflix show is post-Civil War yet. In general the lack of mentions is simply a purposeful tactic to minimize the difficulty of watching the shows without having seen the movies (and obviously the movies make no references to the shows for the same reason) so as to maximize possible audiences. I wonder whether this is an implicit admission that the TV wing of the MCU will not being playing any sort of cinematic role, even in the upcoming everyone Vs Thanos that will be the guns blazing denouement of Marvel Phase 3 :/

For what it's worth and for anyone who cares, here follows a rough timeline of Marvel TV shows - and how the relevant movies fit - not including Agent Carter (obvious) or AoS series 1 as it takes place entirely before Daredevil 1 (with the exception of a couple of DD flashbacks of course). I Will put it in spoilers just in case.

Spoiler

Daredevil series 1 is set in January 2015 (the present day events of episode 1) and events conclude with Fisk's imprisonment at the end of February, for reference to the TV shows outside of Netflix, Fisk's imprisonment is concurrent with AoS series 2 ep 4-5 I believe. March 2015 is the start of Jessica Jones, this is about 8 months before it's actual release date in November, DD is set 3 months prior to it's release in April. The events of Jones run through to the end of April, finishing around AoS series 2 ep 16, April 2015 is also the month that Frank Castle's family are killed in central park. The first week in May is Age of Ultron, and followed pretty swiftly by the events in Afterlife at the end of AoS series 2. The earliest events of series 3 are hours later, with Simmons' first few hours on Maveth, the rest of the series including the 4 prior episodes and much of that episode itself are set later, Simmons is stranded for a number of months. July through to the beginning of August is Ant-Man. Simmons doesn't escape until the end of November, November is also the month Peter Parker gains his powers and the present day events of Dd2 start. Dd2 runs right through to Christmas Day 2015. AoS series 3 mid-series break is around January 2016, picking up again in March, with April being the 'destruction of HYDRA'. May 2016, the Lagos incident in Civil War occurs. June, the Avengers fight at the airport and Cap Vs Iron Man as well as the culmination of AoS series 3. Series 4 is currently in October/November, so it's ahead of real life.

Where exactly Luke Cage fits into that I can't say for certain, the show clearly starts in summer, and summer 2015 would fit what we told before the shows release, i.e. it's set a few months after JJ finishes in April of that year. However, the hospital attack in Dd2 occurs in December 2015, meaning that by the time we see Claire Temple in Harlem for the first time, it literally has to be early 2016. The only way this is possible is if way more time passes in the episodes before her first appearance in Luke Cage than it actually seems, plus if it is winter 2016 by that time then it is a very mild one by New York standards. There's obviously a timeline issue here, but if there's anything we Malazan readers know...

At any rate it explains why Luke Cage pays no attention to the Sokovia Accords of Civil War, because Civil War isn't until May-June 2016, definitely post-Cage whenever it might be set. I think the only Marvel television show currently to be ahead of the events of Civil War is AoS as of now (the effects of the Sokovia Accords are being shown in AoS series 4), one imagines Iron Fist will be as well, but not necessarily I guess. Anything after that, i.e. Defenders probably has to be in a post-Civil War MU, which will be interesting to say the least, because at that point the Netflix Marvel branch really cannot ignore concrete things like the Accords and still claim to be an integrated part of the MCU. Perhaps in fact The Defenders whenever it does come out will be set sometime not too long after Civil War, and have dealing with the accords as a central plot point.

[Nevyn]

I did not find the timeline all that confusing. The JJ stuff was a little up in the air but they cleared it up quickly.

I am a bit the opposite of others here, as I liked the opening of the show a bit more than the closing.

Spoiler

The actor for cottonmouth is awesome and gave a good performance, but they put him in too deep a hole too soon, and so as an adversary for Luke he caused all the problems people complain about re a superhero fighting boring henchmen. There was never a particular likelihood that Cottonmouth could come out the victor or even maintain a stalemate.

They needed Diamondback to put Luke in some actual danger, and to introduce more of his back story.

That being said, it felt to me like Alfre Woodard mailed in her performance a bit, which was a surprise. And the plot around her and Shades was a bit thrown together around Luke and Diamondback.

Not sure how I felt about Shades. Very cool performance, but they made the character so cool and so seemingly menacing that it was a surprise he wasn't more martially effective. Especially since the early Seagate teases made it seem possible he could have been enhanced in some way, too.

All in all, I liked this one a bit less than DD and JJ though. They pulled a great cast together and I expected them to do more with it.

It was nice to have a The Wire reunion show, though.