[Lollerskatez]

I've seen this repeated over and over "The timeline doesn't matter," as if it's not integral to understanding the basic plot of the series (it is). I'm not trying to provoke a flame war here, but the whole MBotF + NotME deserve a serious critique for not providing a self-consistent universe.

1. I would accept the argument that the timeline doesn't matter IF the novels weren't written from a third person omniscient perspective. For all its faults, ASoIaF gets away with ambiguous timelines and stories because it's told from each character's point of view. Further, each character is self-consistent. However, the entire Malazan series doesn't have that going for it. We hear different things from the same characters about the same event across the novels, despite no evidence that we should expect them to be unreliable. It's just a complete mess, and events that should have been apparent in some books weren't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was no mention of the Jade Comets in Stonewielder, despite that story happening concurrently with Blood and Bone, which also happened concurrently with The Crippled God. Then there's the whole mess of when the 7th Closure is, as well as exactly how old the T'lan Imass are. Or the fact that Dessembrae is mentioned to be present at the Chaining, but he doesn't ascend until much, much later.

2. The magic system is an absolute, ambiguous, atrocious mess that makes no sense. The rules are never made clear, their descriptions are convoluted and contradictory, and their "lineage" is in the same boat (or House? or Hold? or... Wagon?). I mean, understanding the magic system is vital to understanding the plot and the timeline, It's heavily suggested that the jade giants have something to do with otataral, but we later find out that there's an Otataral Dragon. Also, it's most likely impossible that the jade giants had anything to do with otataral since, as we find out, the Crippled God (or Kaminsod—no derivation for this name is ever given) isn't bound by the Malazan universe's rules (well, he can be killed, but that's it?). On that point, we find out that the Crippled God was called down from another dimension to destroy Kallor, but how does the magic system allow for interdimensional travel? No other mention of this is given.

Some may argue that the poetic, ambiguous nature of the MBotF is because it's "postmodern," but having a barely coherent plot along with an incoherent timeline doesn't make a book series "postmodern." Go read some Coetzee or Danielewski if you want examples of postmodern literature (among others, of course). The lack of a coherent timeline is more evidence of poor plot planning on the authors' part; they had a cool idea for an overarching plot, but they failed to flesh out the details. Honestly, Deadhouse Gates is probably the most accessible and coherent of all the novels, but even that suffers from severe ambiguities that feel more like the author failed to flesh out the details rather than trying to be "postmodern" or "open for interpretation." It's as much a failure on the editors' part as well for not catching these problems early on.

In any case, it's our duty as readers to seriously consider a coherent timeline & magic system and note inaccuracies or inconsistencies due to the author's error. There are interpretive methods developed to deal with these problems—it's not new at all. I feel that as the timeline and plot consistency got out of hand, the Erikson decided to get more deliberately hand-wavy in an attempt to salvage the story by implying that it's up to the readers' interpretation. However, I'm not buying it—he messed up hardcore. So, the ultimate onus of constructing the "intended" (i.e., coherent) timelline falls on us to create. by figuring out where he messed up and where he was being deliberately vague.

[HoosierDaddy]

There have been many attempts to reconcile the timelines. It has been heavily critiqued and debated. The "the timeline doesn't matter" is just a simple way around the fact that, yes, there was an issue. Steve knows there's an issue. There's nothing to be done about it now.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

I'm not sure why you think the POV is third-person omniscient. It may be third-person, at times, but I don't think it's omniscient. The POV is just as unreliable as any first-person POV.

At least, that's what I tell myself

[Nevyn]

Saying the timeline does not matter is simply saying that the books can be enjoyed without worrying about the little details. And also tacit admission that there are some inconsistencies.

Which is true. If it bugs you though, that is your right.

Lollerskatez, on 15 August 2016 - 05:53 PM, said:

I've seen this repeated over and over "The timeline doesn't matter," as if it's not integral to understanding the basic plot of the series (it is). I'm not trying to provoke a flame war here, but the whole MBotF + NotME deserve a serious critique for not providing a self-consistent universe.

1. I would accept the argument that the timeline doesn't matter IF the novels weren't written from a third person omniscient perspective. For all its faults, ASoIaF gets away with ambiguous timelines and stories because it's told from each character's point of view. Further, each character is self-consistent. However, the entire Malazan series doesn't have that going for it. We hear different things from the same characters about the same event across the novels, despite no evidence that we should expect them to be unreliable. It's just a complete mess, and events that should have been apparent in some books weren't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was no mention of the Jade Comets in Stonewielder, despite that story happening concurrently with Blood and Bone, which also happened concurrently with The Crippled God. Then there's the whole mess of when the 7th Closure is, as well as exactly how old the T'lan Imass are. Or the fact that Dessembrae is mentioned to be present at the Chaining, but he doesn't ascend until much, much later.

There was more than one chaining, and while the exact timing isn't fleshed out, it features the Malazan ascendants, so we can call it recent (within decades).

I don't remember or much care about the synchronization between Stonewielder and Blood and Bone so I will let that be.

As for things like seventh closure and age of the T'lan Imass, some of THAT is ambiguous by design. Remember that SE and ICE are archaeologists so they like to play with the concepts of modern races having imperfect/conflicting knowledge of ancient history.

In short, the timeline has issues, but your examples are not really the best citations for it.

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2. The magic system is an absolute, ambiguous, atrocious mess that makes no sense. The rules are never made clear, their descriptions are convoluted and contradictory, and their "lineage" is in the same boat (or House? or Hold? or... Wagon?). I mean, understanding the magic system is vital to understanding the plot and the timeline, It's heavily suggested that the jade giants have something to do with otataral, but we later find out that there's an Otataral Dragon. Also, it's most likely impossible that the jade giants had anything to do with otataral since, as we find out, the Crippled God (or Kaminsod—no derivation for this name is ever given) isn't bound by the Malazan universe's rules (well, he can be killed, but that's it?). On that point, we find out that the Crippled God was called down from another dimension to destroy Kallor, but how does the magic system allow for interdimensional travel? No other mention of this is given.

Some may argue that the poetic, ambiguous nature of the MBotF is because it's "postmodern," but having a barely coherent plot along with an incoherent timeline doesn't make a book series "postmodern." Go read some Coetzee or Danielewski if you want examples of postmodern literature (among others, of course). The lack of a coherent timeline is more evidence of poor plot planning on the authors' part; they had a cool idea for an overarching plot, but they failed to flesh out the details. Honestly, Deadhouse Gates is probably the most accessible and coherent of all the novels, but even that suffers from severe ambiguities that feel more like the author failed to flesh out the details rather than trying to be "postmodern" or "open for interpretation." It's as much a failure on the editors' part as well for not catching these problems early on.

In any case, it's our duty as readers to seriously consider a coherent timeline & magic system and note inaccuracies or inconsistencies due to the author's error. There are interpretive methods developed to deal with these problems—it's not new at all. I feel that as the timeline and plot consistency got out of hand, the Erikson decided to get more deliberately hand-wavy in an attempt to salvage the story by implying that it's up to the readers' interpretation. However, I'm not buying it—he messed up hardcore. So, the ultimate onus of constructing the "intended" (i.e., coherent) timelline falls on us to create. by figuring out where he messed up and where he was being deliberately vague.

This one comes down to what Patrick Rothfuss defines as "hard" vs "soft" fantasy.

It is not a particular problem, just a matter of preference.

Some people use a magic system with hard and fast rules, which quantifies the possible and is fairly explicitly defined.

Many others leave it open ended, giving you some flavour as to how it works, but seldom applying much in terms of rules and limitations.

The Malazan books tend to fall into that second category. Part of this is due to the role played nature of the stories, and part of it is due to Erikson's stylistic choice, where he pathologically avoids exposition for its own sake, and instead introduces how the world and magic works through the imperfect knowledge of his characters. And yes, that does create a story convenience where anything is possible. Either you can deal with it, or you can't.


As for Otataral, and the dragon. Otataral is the negation of sorcery. So the coming of the giants was such a cataclysmic sorcerous event that some of this was created. The Otataral dragon is aspected to Otataral the way other dragons are aspected to specific warrens/flavours of magic. Having a dragon for Rashan does not mean all darkness magic is expressly created by it, and ditto for the Korabas and Otataral. Again, this is open ended and mysterious, but that is a stylistic choice of the author. He doesn't WANT the reader to understand how everything works.

[Vengeance]

The magic system makes complete sense to me.

Just the other day I used the short cut through Tellan via the hold not the houses in order to quicken my commute to work. Now you might say what about the time shift when you are in the hold. Well in order to counter that I slide into Serc then landed in Tennes. Bamm I went from running 10 minutes late to arriving a day early. Of course I was already at work so that was kind of ackward. But I was super productive yesterday. Now I just need to get home in time to catch my sons baseball game and my daughters volleyball. I think Serc then Thyr followed by Ruse and of course Tennes for the landing... Hmmmm This is a tricky one. Luckily I have an day to figure it out.

[Nevyn]

Vengeance, on 15 August 2016 - 06:26 PM, said:

The magic system makes complete sense to me.

Just the other day I used the short cut through Tellan via the hold not the houses in order to quicken my commute to work. Now you might say what about the time shift when you are in the hold. Well in order to counter that I slide into Serc then landed in Tennes. Bamm I went from running 10 minutes late to arriving a day early. Of course I was already at work so that was kind of ackward. But I was super productive yesterday. Now I just need to get home in time to catch my sons baseball game and my daughters volleyball. I think Serc then Thyr followed by Ruse and of course Tennes for the landing... Hmmmm This is a tricky one. Luckily I have an day to figure it out.

Dude, why would you take that way when you can just drop through Chaos? Much less traffic.

[Gorefest]

I genuinely do not recognise any of the issues that you raise. Yes the timeline has inconsistensies, but none of them are vital to the plot. And with such a huge sprawling universe with such a big time span and two independent authors it is a small miracle that there aren't more impacting errors. Regarding the Jade Strangers, blood and bone is taking place on an entirely different continent than stonewielder and the crippled god, so there are certain locations where you will see them more clearly (or at all) than others. There have also been multiple chainings, with different people present. Also, Dessembrae is a god, Dassem is just one incarnation of Dessembrae.

The magic system is not vital to the plot line, it is world enrichment and colouring. The information we get on it is enough to enjoy the story and understand the processes, but none of the characters fully understand it and subsequently neither does the reader. We sometimes get conflicting info based on the knowledge (or lack thereof) of the character viewpoint. But overall the workings are fairly clear and elaborated even more on during series like the Kharkanas trilogy. It starts with wild nature forces, then blood magic accessible only to a select few (early Holds), the racial Holds, then the Warrens which are K'rul's big Leveller, making magic accessible to anyone who is willing to invest time and learning and every race. Then Icarium's new system which again gets superimposed on its predecessors and is more mechanical in nature.

The link between the jade giants and otateral is that otataral arises anywhere where dangerous levels of magic heap up, as a negator of warren-based magic energies. As all the warren-based magic is aspected and linked to a dragon, so is its negating force (Korabas). The jade giants were alien and virulent magic sources, probably chaotic in nature, which triggered the formation of otataral to 'cover' or block its effect, like a magic scab.

We see interdimensional travel all the time (people travelling through demon realms, gallan's road, the tiste realm, the realm of shadow) so there is precendence for multiple realms. I am not sure therefore why it is so out of bounds for the thermataugs to pull down a god from an alien realm to destroy a tyrant.

The 'barely coherent plot' remark is a personal opinion, which I do not share. Perhaps you should try and reread the series? Many people say many aspects make more sense on a reread and I personally would concur with that after three reads. If you claim that Erikson 'failed hardcore' then at least give us some convincing examples of this that actually show a lack of forward planning and a heavy reliance on deus ex machinas or retconning. You will be hard pressed on the overall story arc. Apart from the first novel, which was written twelve years prior to the rest and was originally written as a stand-alone film script. So you have to forgive any retcon attempts for this novel in later books, as the authors have never denied this and the reasons for it are blatently clear.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 15 August 2016 - 07:28 PM

[Vengeance]

Nevyn, on 15 August 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 15 August 2016 - 06:26 PM, said:

The magic system makes complete sense to me.

Just the other day I used the short cut through Tellan via the hold not the houses in order to quicken my commute to work. Now you might say what about the time shift when you are in the hold. Well in order to counter that I slide into Serc then landed in Tennes. Bamm I went from running 10 minutes late to arriving a day early. Of course I was already at work so that was kind of ackward. But I was super productive yesterday. Now I just need to get home in time to catch my sons baseball game and my daughters volleyball. I think Serc then Thyr followed by Ruse and of course Tennes for the landing... Hmmmm This is a tricky one. Luckily I have an day to figure it out.

Dude, why would you take that way when you can just drop through Chaos? Much less traffic.

Sure it is quicker for my body to get there. But the last time that I did that I couldn't remember who I was or who anyone else was for 9 months.

[Puck]

What Gorefest said above. I think that the series has one big problem, and that is not timeline issues or incoherent plot, but it's scope - you have to reread it several times to grasp even the majority of offhand remarks that explain supposedly inconsistent plotlines. I'd argue that whatever inconsistency one reader may find in the plot, another reader can explain because they paid attention to this particular detail over another for some reason. My favourite example is the issue between Dassem and Hood and the whys and hows of Dassem's ascention to Dessembrae, which gets mentioned in GotM for the first time, yet only is ever actually explained in an offhand thought by Tool in tCG.

As for the magic system, I see nothing incoherent there either. It's an almost linear progression from the wild, unruly forces inherent in all of nature to the quite clearly defined boundaries of the Warrens. Except it's progression is muddled by the activities of meddling forces like K'rul, who thought to impose rules on something initially intuitive. There is no need to clearly define wether one can levitate a cup using Rashan or not. One has to remember that SE and ICE are archaeologists and anthropologists and that their unserstanding of how little we actually know of our own history has coloured their peceptions of the world and storytelling. Nothing in the MBotF is told from an omniscient perspective, for writing in the first person is simply the easiest way to convey a possibly unreliable narrator, but does not guarantee it (I've just finished Hobb's Farseer Trilogy, and it's both written from the first person PoV throughout AND has exactly zero whiff of an unreliable narrator).

I think what all of this ultimately comes down to is the reader's preferences. There is no absolute 'right' way to write a story, and some prefer clearly defined boundaries and stories with each date given, and some can do without. Yes, there are timeline issues in this series, both authors are aware of that. There's nothing to be done about it now. SE clearly chose to keep wirting the story he wanted to tell despite that.

There's also the issue that 'The timeline does not matter', as a joke, has been parroted so much that it's blown out of proportion and stopped meaning what it originally did. I feel like nowadays it's used a pretext to try and find inconsistencies in the series which are simply not there. Originally, 'The timeline does not matter' referred simply to the fact that some dates given in the earlier books did not match up properly, and to how after MT (was it MT?), there are no more year numbers given in the books, as well as a skewed number of years between the events of MoI and TtH. Unsurprisingly, I have read very little works where this kind of thing adds up perfectly. As to the overall plot and timeline, it does match up just fine in the ways of which event follows which other event and which happen concurrently, so personally, I see no issue there.

But again, it basically depends on how much you need the narrative to scrunch numbers. The MBotF is not everyone's cup of tea, but saying SE 'failed hardcore' is pure opinion. Mine lies the exact opposite way. In fact, SE even ackowledges many issues the series has, be they narrative or structural, within the text itself, especially in the later books. There's an entire poem about it in tCG.

[worry]

This is the first I'm hearing of all this! Now I'm mad.

[Nevyn]

Vengeance, on 15 August 2016 - 07:38 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 15 August 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 15 August 2016 - 06:26 PM, said:

The magic system makes complete sense to me.

Just the other day I used the short cut through Tellan via the hold not the houses in order to quicken my commute to work. Now you might say what about the time shift when you are in the hold. Well in order to counter that I slide into Serc then landed in Tennes. Bamm I went from running 10 minutes late to arriving a day early. Of course I was already at work so that was kind of ackward. But I was super productive yesterday. Now I just need to get home in time to catch my sons baseball game and my daughters volleyball. I think Serc then Thyr followed by Ruse and of course Tennes for the landing... Hmmmm This is a tricky one. Luckily I have an day to figure it out.

Dude, why would you take that way when you can just drop through Chaos? Much less traffic.

Sure it is quicker for my body to get there. But the last time that I did that I couldn't remember who I was or who anyone else was for 9 months.

I tend to view that as a bonus feature.

[flea]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 15 August 2016 - 06:12 PM, said:

I'm not sure why you think the POV is third-person omniscient. It may be third-person, at times, but I don't think it's omniscient. The POV is just as unreliable as any first-person POV.

At least, that's what I tell myself

No need to tell yourself anything. Erickson uses a third person limited perspective. The OP does not understand narration.

[Abyss]

Frikkin Harllo... This is all his fault!

"understanding the magic system is vital to understanding the plot and the timeline, "
No. It isn't. This is like saying you must understand combustion engine mechanics in order to follow a map.

[Andorion]

I actually prefer books where the magic system is not so cut and dried. Sanderson for example makes it seem almost like arithmetic. It comes off as very mechanical.

[nacht]

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2. The magic system is an absolute, ambiguous, atrocious mess that makes no sense. The rules are never made clear, their descriptions are convoluted and contradictory, and their "lineage" is in the same boat (or House? or Hold? or... Wagon?).

You obviously are not a mage. Abyss on the other hand can talk to cats.

Most of us are just worshippers of SE. Our faith needs no reason. . Especially no stinking timelines.

[Lollerskatez]

Regarding the interdimensional travel/jade giants/otataral/magic system—this is vital for understanding the main plot, since the crux of climax entirely relies on the Crippled God being immune, or rather, completely unaffected by magic/otataral. This is explained by saying he's "alien." Yet, demons, Tiste Andii, Tiste Liosan, etc. are all affected by the magic, despite that they're from different "dimensions." So, it's fairly confusing that the Crippled God could even be summoned (of course, this brings up the issue of why the thaumaturgs even thought the Crippled God could destroy Kallor). Regardless, this is a crucial plot point, but it feels like Erikson is pulling a deus ex machina.


Further, the magic system doesn't even seem to be understood by most ascendants and gods, which is... unconvincing, really. They should at least have a better idea of how it works than the average mage. Even Icarium couldn't explain how his new magic system would work, other than it's somehow "mechanical" in nature. The best Erikson has done to explain it was in Midnight Tides, but then kinda... departed from that. I realize that not all magic systems have to be fully explained, but often this is the case when it's a low magic world/the main characters aren't mages. Sanderson is on the opposite end, where the rules of magic are fully explained with no deviations—but at least it doesn't lead to confusing plot situations. Warrens, Holds, etc. just feel like cheap plot devices that can do whatever needs to move the plot along. But it seems like Erikson can't make up his mind about this, considering how much he tries to describe the magic system. This isn't good for the plot at all, it's hard to tell when magic is being used as a deux ex machina or as an important, significant plot point.


Now, regarding the timeline again, I realize Erikson is an anthropologist, it comes across very strongly in the first few books (which was thoroughly refreshing, really). The dates and times of events in the past don't have to be set in stone, but as for current events, there's no excuse for why it can't be planned in advance. And again, there are characters in the series who would know how long ago things happened... because they were there! Not all events need to be entirely clear, but certain events should become clearer (or, at least different versions of the same event) over time as new information is revealed.


The series is good, and Erikson does a lot of great stuff, but that doesn't mean he's immune to critique, or that certain things shouldn't be critiqued. The themes and overall idea of the plot is great, but he's got a lot of moving parts and that confuses some of his finer points (well, that and his writing style, but that's a different issue). Discussing these inconsistencies and ambiguities can actually help illuminate some of his points, actually. By figuring out where Erikson likely messed up and where he didn't, we can better understand the series... in fact, it wouldn't surprise me if his most glaring errors were actually on purpose to encourage discussion—or even discover what the "true" timeline is.


Also, by omniscient, I meant to distinguish it from limited, which sometimes implies that it's just told from one characters perspective. There's an invisible narrator here, but I didn't mean to imply the narrator knows everything.

[Puck]

Your own post is so muddled with demanding things that have little to do with each other make sense when placed together, as well as contradictions (the timeline has to make sense! - unless it's intentional! - but damn if id doesn't!), it's hard to pierce what your actuall issues here is. What I'd like to point out is that the concepts of omniscient and limited narratives have their meanings, namely exactly what they say, not sometimes that and sometimes the other. Wether the limited narrative uses one PoV or twenty does not change the fact that it is limited.

[Nevyn]

Lollerskatez, on 17 August 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

Regarding the interdimensional travel/jade giants/otataral/magic system—this is vital for understanding the main plot, since the crux of climax entirely relies on the Crippled God being immune, or rather, completely unaffected by magic/otataral. This is explained by saying he's "alien." Yet, demons, Tiste Andii, Tiste Liosan, etc. are all affected by the magic, despite that they're from different "dimensions." So, it's fairly confusing that the Crippled God could even be summoned (of course, this brings up the issue of why the thaumaturgs even thought the Crippled God could destroy Kallor). Regardless, this is a crucial plot point, but it feels like Erikson is pulling a deus ex machina.

Further, the magic system doesn't even seem to be understood by most ascendants and gods, which is... unconvincing, really. They should at least have a better idea of how it works than the average mage. Even Icarium couldn't explain how his new magic system would work, other than it's somehow "mechanical" in nature. The best Erikson has done to explain it was in Midnight Tides, but then kinda... departed from that. I realize that not all magic systems have to be fully explained, but often this is the case when it's a low magic world/the main characters aren't mages. Sanderson is on the opposite end, where the rules of magic are fully explained with no deviations—but at least it doesn't lead to confusing plot situations. Warrens, Holds, etc. just feel like cheap plot devices that can do whatever needs to move the plot along. But it seems like Erikson can't make up his mind about this, considering how much he tries to describe the magic system. This isn't good for the plot at all, it's hard to tell when magic is being used as a deux ex machina or as an important, significant plot point.

Again, you are complaining about a stylistic choice as if instead an oversight on the part of the author.

And if this choice bugs you fundamentally that much, I am surprised you got through the series.

You don't have to understand how magic works to understand the plot, especially since you are following characters who, by and large, don't completely understand it either. If you want every rule of how magic works spelled out, you don't want this series. That is not a weakness, simply a matter of preference.

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Now, regarding the timeline again, I realize Erikson is an anthropologist, it comes across very strongly in the first few books (which was thoroughly refreshing, really). The dates and times of events in the past don't have to be set in stone, but as for current events, there's no excuse for why it can't be planned in advance. And again, there are characters in the series who would know how long ago things happened... because they were there! Not all events need to be entirely clear, but certain events should become clearer (or, at least different versions of the same event) over time as new information is revealed.

Have you noticed that you tended to get fewer POVs from the characters who have been around that long? You learn about them by how they interact with others. And even when you do get POV's, those are mainly in reaction to what they see and hear, not inner monologue.

The type of spelling out you are crying for is exposition, which is the very thing Erikson was trying to limit wherever he could. He wanted you to follow along with the story and pick up an idea of how things work as you go, without ever pumping the breaks to have a chapter of "powerful being explains all of what past to our hero" or "our hero is now remembering all the details he knows so the reader can learn them".

It is a stylistic choice, and not everyone likes it. But again, if you wanted things spelled out more explicitly I am shocked you didn't give up very early on.

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The series is good, and Erikson does a lot of great stuff, but that doesn't mean he's immune to critique, or that certain things shouldn't be critiqued.

I think you'll find very few on here consider Erikson immune to critique, and even fewer find ICE so.

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The themes and overall idea of the plot is great, but he's got a lot of moving parts and that confuses some of his finer points (well, that and his writing style, but that's a different issue). Discussing these inconsistencies and ambiguities can actually help illuminate some of his points, actually. By figuring out where Erikson likely messed up and where he didn't, we can better understand the series... in fact, it wouldn't surprise me if his most glaring errors were actually on purpose to encourage discussion—or even discover what the "true" timeline is.

People do discuss the actual mistakes. And there are a few.


But your specific examples are not mistakes nor problems for the story. They affect neither the potential to enjoy it nor its internal consistency.

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Also, by omniscient, I meant to distinguish it from limited, which sometimes implies that it's just told from one characters perspective. There's an invisible narrator here, but I didn't mean to imply the narrator knows everything.

om·nis·cientämˈniSHənt/
adjective[color=#878787 !important]

• knowing everything.[color=#878787 !important]"the story is told by an omniscient narrator"[/color]
  synonyms:all-knowing, all-wise, all-seeing"he thought I was some kind of omniscient guru"[/color]

[Gorefest]

Lollerskatez, on 17 August 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

Regarding the interdimensional travel/jade giants/otataral/magic system—this is vital for understanding the main plot, since the crux of climax entirely relies on the Crippled God being immune, or rather, completely unaffected by magic/otataral. This is explained by saying he's "alien." Yet, demons, Tiste Andii, Tiste Liosan, etc. are all affected by the magic, despite that they're from different "dimensions." So, it's fairly confusing that the Crippled God could even be summoned (of course, this brings up the issue of why the thaumaturgs even thought the Crippled God could destroy Kallor). Regardless, this is a crucial plot point, but it feels like Erikson is pulling a deus ex machina.

It depends what you mean by 'the magic'. Tiste Andii and Liosan etc for instance are actually not affected by otataral at all, because their racial holds are Elder and otataral only affects Warren magic. This is also the reason why it is not negating the energies in the jade statues: the otataral tries to cover them to dampen the effects but it cannot annul their energy because it is not Warren magic, but more something resembling chaos magic which is primordial. I'm not sure how you conclude that the Crippled God is completely unaffected by magic. After all, he is chained with magic chains that he cannot escape. We have no clue how the thaumaturgs actually called down Kaminsod because we have no first-hand accounts of it (perhaps we will learn more in the Kharkanas or the Path to Ascendancy series?), but clearly certain magic can have an affect on him otherwise the Chains wouldn't work either.

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Further, the magic system doesn't even seem to be understood by most ascendants and gods, which is... unconvincing, really. They should at least have a better idea of how it works than the average mage.

Why? It's magic. The Gods are 'just' Ascendent beings with followers, but no matter how old or how knowledgeable they are, the magic still predates them. I don't understand where you draw the conclusion from that 'the system' doesn't seem to be understood? There is no 'system', these are primordial forces that get channeled and applied in certain ways by various different entities in different manners and at different times. And some Gods do have a very good idea of how it works, otherwise how could K'rul have channeled it through his own veins and aspected dragons? Draconus forged a whole sword realm to carry the gate of Darkness away from Chaos, you cannot do that sort of stuff without some decent understanding of the laws and restrictions. Sadly, his solution was not very prudent upon reconsideration. And that's because Gods and ascendants aren't omniscient, all-powerful and unfailing in the Malazan universe.

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Even Icarium couldn't explain how his new magic system would work, other than it's somehow "mechanical" in nature.

I bet most software designers cannot explain how their computer hardware processes their code or are able to build a computer starting with a pile of silicon sand. that doesn't mean that they cannot create amazing programs using the structures that are provided to them.

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The best Erikson has done to explain it was in Midnight Tides, but then kinda... departed from that. I realize that not all magic systems have to be fully explained, but often this is the case when it's a low magic world/the main characters aren't mages. Sanderson is on the opposite end, where the rules of magic are fully explained with no deviations—but at least it doesn't lead to confusing plot situations. Warrens, Holds, etc. just feel like cheap plot devices that can do whatever needs to move the plot along. But it seems like Erikson can't make up his mind about this, considering how much he tries to describe the magic system. This isn't good for the plot at all, it's hard to tell when magic is being used as a deux ex machina or as an important, significant plot point.

I'm still not sure that I understand your point about how Warrens etc feel like cheap plot devices. Yes there are areas that are not fully explored or revealed, but as far as I can see you get enough information to understand the basic happenings and to follow the rationale of the characters. A lot of Erikson's storytelling is centralised around the characters and their motivations. World building aspects and mechanics are only introduced and elaborated on in as far as is required to make the character actions or ponderings understandable, but other than that they are left (deliberately) vague. I appreciate that this may be frustrating to some, but that doesn't mean it is bad writing or deus ex machinas. It is a choice that the author makes. If you disagree with that choice and rate the series down for it, that of course is a matter of personal taste and opinion. SE just doesn't place the same importance or relevance to it as you do. This is probably in large part due to his and Cam's archeological background, where vagueness and unknowns about historical and mystical events are commonplace and an accepted inconvenience.

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Now, regarding the timeline again, I realize Erikson is an anthropologist, it comes across very strongly in the first few books (which was thoroughly refreshing, really). The dates and times of events in the past don't have to be set in stone, but as for current events, there's no excuse for why it can't be planned in advance. And again, there are characters in the series who would know how long ago things happened... because they were there! Not all events need to be entirely clear, but certain events should become clearer (or, at least different versions of the same event) over time as new information is revealed.

Do you have specific examples of this? Because the only ones that I can think of are the often addressed Harllo age jump, which is an error that SE has acknowledged but it is not really a plot issue, and anything that was borne out of the GotM original book that needed to be retconned and which again has often been addressed by the authors. Other issues arise between SE and ICE's works, where there are some minor timeline discrepancies which csn creep in if you have two authors writing mostly independently within the same universe, but again none of those really affect the overall timeline or plot. The only things may be that you have a character that shows up in one book a month earlier than he could logically have done if you compare actions from a different book. But the authors have chosen to not make too big a deal out of that and acknowledge that such flaws may be found, because otherwise it would take them forever to write anything. And as long as such time jumps aren't majorly impacting on the plot, most readers are happy to run with it. If you aren't, that's fair enough.

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The series is good, and Erikson does a lot of great stuff, but that doesn't mean he's immune to critique, or that certain things shouldn't be critiqued.

True, and there are tons of threads already on the board that discuss issues. If anything, SE openly invites critique in all his interviews and dealings with fans, because he likes discussing that sort of thing. But of course most people that frequent these boards are fans of the Malazan universe, so we tend to approach any issues with some mellowness as we love the overall work. You don't call someone else's baby ugly either, even if it clearly is, but you use terms like 'sweet' or 'cute' instead.

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The themes and overall idea of the plot is great, but he's got a lot of moving parts and that confuses some of his finer points (well, that and his writing style, but that's a different issue). Discussing these inconsistencies and ambiguities can actually help illuminate some of his points, actually. By figuring out where Erikson likely messed up and where he didn't, we can better understand the series... in fact, it wouldn't surprise me if his most glaring errors were actually on purpose to encourage discussion—or even discover what the "true" timeline is.

All valid points, and as I said, there are lots of threads already on these boards that discuss particular issues. But your overall post casts judgement on the series as a whole without actually giving any particular examples where the author(s) falter(s). So it is difficult to discuss anything specifically, as you cannot critique a 20-odd novel opus in one generic post.

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Also, by omniscient, I meant to distinguish it from limited, which sometimes implies that it's just told from one characters perspective. There's an invisible narrator here, but I didn't mean to imply the narrator knows everything.

Is there an invisible narrator, though? There clearly is in Toll the Hounds and in that novel it is done deliberately (Kruppe) because SE likes to experiment with style elements, but in all the other books it is still character view points. Not as drastic as with ASOIAF of course, but nevertheless all the information we receive about the world is through the characters' eyes. They may know a lot more, but if they do not communicate this or think about it, we as readers will not learn about it.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 17 August 2016 - 03:28 PM

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Lollerskatez, on 17 August 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

Regarding the interdimensional travel/jade giants/otataral/magic system—this is vital for understanding the main plot, since the crux of climax entirely relies on the Crippled God being immune, or rather, completely unaffected by magic/otataral.

Nope.

The main plot, when all is said and done, is that Tavore and co, with ST and Cots' assistance, are seeking to free the CG from being used and abused by the rest of the pantheon and sent home so he stops causing trouble.

Any immunity to magic or otataral - I'm really not clear what you're referring to there - is story, not plot, and far from 'vital'.

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This is explained by saying he's "alien." Yet, demons, Tiste Andii, Tiste Liosan, etc. are all affected by the magic, despite that they're from different "dimensions."

Yes, they are, and so is the CG. They also all happen to be affected differently and to different degrees, by different kinds of magic. you're trying too hard to apply sweeping rules to everything and that doesn't work in the world this series inhabits.

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So, it's fairly confusing that the Crippled God could even be summoned (of course, this brings up the issue of why the thaumaturgs even thought the Crippled God could destroy Kallor).

It's very clear that the thaumaturges were looking for powerful slaves/allies to use against Kallor. It's also very clear that they utterly screwed up the effort, nuked a continent, died, and caused all kinds of future problems, the resolution of which is the main point of the MBF books.

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Regardless, this is a crucial plot point, but it feels like Erikson is pulling a deus ex machina.

It's not, and I don't think deus ex applies here. The ultimate resolution of the MBF story is not a contrived plot device descending from nowhere to solve everything for the characters. Far from it.

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Further, the magic system doesn't even seem to be understood by most ascendants and gods, which is... unconvincing, really.

The gods are as fucked up and confused as everyone else in this series, just more powerful (sometimes). If you think that just because someone is a 'god' they are automatically entitled to anything, you may have missed a key point or two in the story.