[Dolmen 2.0]

Abyss, on 17 August 2016 - 03:25 PM, said:

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Further, the magic system doesn't even seem to be understood by most ascendants and gods, which is... unconvincing, really.

The gods are as fucked up and confused as everyone else in this series, just more powerful (sometimes). If you think that just because someone is a 'god' they are automatically entitled to anything, you may have missed a key point or two in the story.

One concept/theme carried right through the series is this: there is power in how one perceives something and power in how one is perceived. These two things are exclusive to one another but also not. Its a dichotomy inherent in all aspects of society. The magic system is treated in a similar fashion to this. We perceive magics effects but no one in the series can ever fully understand the causes.

There is no clear path to ascendancy/God-hood, the High Denul practitioners on Jacuruku can't get it right despite being immensely adept at their art. knowledge in one art doesn't equal ascendancy why then assume godhood in a path equals knowledge?

In OST Dassembrae and Dassem are the same and yet divorced from one another. Mael is at the mercy of the people that worship him (the Jhistal) whilst "simultaneously" free to serve an individual entirely unconnected to his aspect. He has lots of autonomy, and is ANCIENT and still he himself sites the forgotten ones as aspects of his domain whose power he doesn't fully understand. Just because you claim an aspect/domain/Path doesn't mean you know all there is to it.

Quite a few of the Gods in the Malazan books are young and basically not sure what they're doing. The Pantheon has Tiers for a reason.

Gods are not all powerful, simply exalted. ICE and Erikson both make this point very clear. In most cases it takes effort from the God/Ascendant to be knowledgeable. It also takes commitment from the Gods followers to keep the God powerful. This is not always the case though.

This post has been edited by Dolmen 2.0: 18 August 2016 - 10:11 AM

[worry]

If you think of time as a 'line' are you not already on the wrong path?

[Gnaw]

Nevyn, on 16 August 2016 - 12:14 AM, said:

Vengeance, on 15 August 2016 - 07:38 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 15 August 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 15 August 2016 - 06:26 PM, said:

The magic system makes complete sense to me.

Just the other day I used the short cut through Tellan via the hold not the houses in order to quicken my commute to work. Now you might say what about the time shift when you are in the hold. Well in order to counter that I slide into Serc then landed in Tennes. Bamm I went from running 10 minutes late to arriving a day early. Of course I was already at work so that was kind of ackward. But I was super productive yesterday. Now I just need to get home in time to catch my sons baseball game and my daughters volleyball. I think Serc then Thyr followed by Ruse and of course Tennes for the landing... Hmmmm This is a tricky one. Luckily I have an day to figure it out.

Dude, why would you take that way when you can just drop through Chaos? Much less traffic.

Sure it is quicker for my body to get there. But the last time that I did that I couldn't remember who I was or who anyone else was for 9 months.

I tend to view that as a bonus feature.

Wait....If I take the Chaos route I'll forget who Veng is for 9 months??? Why the hell has no one mentioned this before?

[Nevyn]

Gnaw, on 18 August 2016 - 08:28 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 16 August 2016 - 12:14 AM, said:

Vengeance, on 15 August 2016 - 07:38 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 15 August 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 15 August 2016 - 06:26 PM, said:

The magic system makes complete sense to me.

Just the other day I used the short cut through Tellan via the hold not the houses in order to quicken my commute to work. Now you might say what about the time shift when you are in the hold. Well in order to counter that I slide into Serc then landed in Tennes. Bamm I went from running 10 minutes late to arriving a day early. Of course I was already at work so that was kind of ackward. But I was super productive yesterday. Now I just need to get home in time to catch my sons baseball game and my daughters volleyball. I think Serc then Thyr followed by Ruse and of course Tennes for the landing... Hmmmm This is a tricky one. Luckily I have an day to figure it out.

Dude, why would you take that way when you can just drop through Chaos? Much less traffic.

Sure it is quicker for my body to get there. But the last time that I did that I couldn't remember who I was or who anyone else was for 9 months.

I tend to view that as a bonus feature.

Wait....If I take the Chaos route I'll forget who Veng is for 9 months??? Why the hell has no one mentioned this before?

Sorry, forgot.

[Embrasure of Folly]

>a barely coherent plot

I'm sorry dude, I stopped reading there.

[Abyss]

Embrasure of Folly, on 05 December 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

>a barely coherent plot

I'm sorry dude, I stopped reading there.

Hee.... damn EoF, I wish you were around when this thread originally kicked off. We could have saved so much time and effort.

[Esa1996]

You have just named two of the three major flaws in the series IMO (The third would be the lack of a real main plot, and the books being too standalone-ish for my tastes). Said flaws can't really be fixed or explained away (Though the magic doesn't bother me much), and unfortunately they do have a negative effect on my opinion of the series. If I were to make a top 10 list of book series, Malazan would be one the 1st place in some aspects (Biggest and probably the most interesting world) and on the last in other aspects (Many details of said world are mentioned only once and then forgotten, giving me a feeling that most of said details were invented on the spot and forgotten by the time the book they were written into was ready). It is due to these flaws that I find the series so hard to rate against others. Even so I usually place it as either my 2nd or 3rd favorite series of all time alongside ASOIAF, just behind Wheel of Time.


EDIT: It would seem I just revived a three month old thread. Oh well, accidents do happen.

This post has been edited by Esa1996: 04 March 2017 - 09:17 AM

[Kanese S's]

Lollerskatez, on 15 August 2016 - 05:53 PM, said:

I've seen this repeated over and over "The timeline doesn't matter," as if it's not integral to understanding the basic plot of the series (it is). I'm not trying to provoke a flame war here, but the whole MBotF + NotME deserve a serious critique for not providing a self-consistent universe.

1. I would accept the argument that the timeline doesn't matter IF the novels weren't written from a third person omniscient perspective. For all its faults, ASoIaF gets away with ambiguous timelines and stories because it's told from each character's point of view. Further, each character is self-consistent. However, the entire Malazan series doesn't have that going for it. We hear different things from the same characters about the same event across the novels, despite no evidence that we should expect them to be unreliable. It's just a complete mess, and events that should have been apparent in some books weren't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was no mention of the Jade Comets in Stonewielder, despite that story happening concurrently with Blood and Bone, which also happened concurrently with The Crippled God. Then there's the whole mess of when the 7th Closure is, as well as exactly how old the T'lan Imass are. Or the fact that Dessembrae is mentioned to be present at the Chaining, but he doesn't ascend until much, much later.

That's your first mistake right there. Malazan isn't written from an omniscient perspective. Just because it's in third person doesn't mean that it isn't from the perspectives of the characters in it.

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2. The magic system is an absolute, ambiguous, atrocious mess that makes no sense. The rules are never made clear, their descriptions are convoluted and contradictory, and their "lineage" is in the same boat (or House? or Hold? or... Wagon?). I mean, understanding the magic system is vital to understanding the plot and the timeline, It's heavily suggested that the jade giants have something to do with otataral, but we later find out that there's an Otataral Dragon. Also, it's most likely impossible that the jade giants had anything to do with otataral since, as we find out, the Crippled God (or Kaminsod—no derivation for this name is ever given) isn't bound by the Malazan universe's rules (well, he can be killed, but that's it?). On that point, we find out that the Crippled God was called down from another dimension to destroy Kallor, but how does the magic system allow for interdimensional travel? No other mention of this is given.

Yes, the jade giants have something to do with Otataral and there's an Otataral Dragon. Much of the system of magic and gods and so in Malazan is drawn from animist systems of spiritual belief, in which there is often a spirit for every thing or concept that exists. If a new concept or thing comes about, so too does its spirit. Also why should a derivation for Kaminsod be given? He's an alien god, not from this world. Thus his name wouldn't be linguistically related to any of the names of other deities.

Calling down a god from another world is a singular occurrence because it turned out to be a TERRIBLE idea. And probably before and since most people knew it was a terrible idea, and the only reason it was done was because Kallor was just that awful of a tyrant.

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Some may argue that the poetic, ambiguous nature of the MBotF is because it's "postmodern," but having a barely coherent plot along with an incoherent timeline doesn't make a book series "postmodern." Go read some Coetzee or Danielewski if you want examples of postmodern literature (among others, of course). The lack of a coherent timeline is more evidence of poor plot planning on the authors' part; they had a cool idea for an overarching plot, but they failed to flesh out the details. Honestly, Deadhouse Gates is probably the most accessible and coherent of all the novels, but even that suffers from severe ambiguities that feel more like the author failed to flesh out the details rather than trying to be "postmodern" or "open for interpretation." It's as much a failure on the editors' part as well for not catching these problems early on.

I dunno, I think the plot is pretty coherent.

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In any case, it's our duty as readers to seriously consider a coherent timeline & magic system and note inaccuracies or inconsistencies due to the author's error. There are interpretive methods developed to deal with these problems—it's not new at all. I feel that as the timeline and plot consistency got out of hand, the Erikson decided to get more deliberately hand-wavy in an attempt to salvage the story by implying that it's up to the readers' interpretation. However, I'm not buying it—he messed up hardcore. So, the ultimate onus of constructing the "intended" (i.e., coherent) timelline falls on us to create. by figuring out where he messed up and where he was being deliberately vague.

The only major timeline error I'd attribute to Erikson is Harlo's age.

[Kanese S's]

Nevyn, on 15 August 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 15 August 2016 - 06:26 PM, said:

The magic system makes complete sense to me.

Just the other day I used the short cut through Tellan via the hold not the houses in order to quicken my commute to work. Now you might say what about the time shift when you are in the hold. Well in order to counter that I slide into Serc then landed in Tennes. Bamm I went from running 10 minutes late to arriving a day early. Of course I was already at work so that was kind of ackward. But I was super productive yesterday. Now I just need to get home in time to catch my sons baseball game and my daughters volleyball. I think Serc then Thyr followed by Ruse and of course Tennes for the landing... Hmmmm This is a tricky one. Luckily I have an day to figure it out.

Dude, why would you take that way when you can just drop through Chaos? Much less traffic.

Because it's a really bad neighborhood.

Lollerskatez, on 17 August 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

Regarding the interdimensional travel/jade giants/otataral/magic system—this is vital for understanding the main plot, since the crux of climax entirely relies on the Crippled God being immune, or rather, completely unaffected by magic/otataral. This is explained by saying he's "alien." Yet, demons, Tiste Andii, Tiste Liosan, etc. are all affected by the magic, despite that they're from different "dimensions." So, it's fairly confusing that the Crippled God could even be summoned (of course, this brings up the issue of why the thaumaturgs even thought the Crippled God could destroy Kallor). Regardless, this is a crucial plot point, but it feels like Erikson is pulling a deus ex machina.

I think you've misread.

For one, the Crippled God is affected by magic. He's bound by magical chains and Mael can use magic to go into his puny little realm and deliver an ass whooping.

Secondly, otataral isn't magic. It negates warren magic. It's not going to do jack shit to stop Anomander Rake using Kurald Galain anymore than it's going to stop the Crippled God from using chaos. It doesn't work on elder warrens, including those used by casters from alien realms such as the Tiste or the Crippled God.

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Further, the magic system doesn't even seem to be understood by most ascendants and gods, which is... unconvincing, really. They should at least have a better idea of how it works than the average mage. Even Icarium couldn't explain how his new magic system would work, other than it's somehow "mechanical" in nature. The best Erikson has done to explain it was in Midnight Tides, but then kinda... departed from that. I realize that not all magic systems have to be fully explained, but often this is the case when it's a low magic world/the main characters aren't mages. Sanderson is on the opposite end, where the rules of magic are fully explained with no deviations—but at least it doesn't lead to confusing plot situations. Warrens, Holds, etc. just feel like cheap plot devices that can do whatever needs to move the plot along. But it seems like Erikson can't make up his mind about this, considering how much he tries to describe the magic system. This isn't good for the plot at all, it's hard to tell when magic is being used as a deux ex machina or as an important, significant plot point.

Why would most ascendants and gods understand it? It's far older than probably most of them. For instance, two gods were mere mortals little more than a decade before the start of the series. Shadowthrone was literally a human mage not that long before the series starts. Why would Treach/Trake understand how magic works? Sure, he ascended, but he was a soletaken, not a mage.

Remember, these are polytheist/animist style gods. Not omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent as in monotheist belief systems. They're much more like the Greek, Mesopotamian, or Norse gods than they are like the Christian god.

Sanderson and Erikson have totally different narrative styles. Erikson and Esslemont both actively avoid exposition for its own sake, while Sanderson employs it. That's not to say either style is better, just different. It's a stylistic choice by the author. Erikson and Esslemont likely thought it would break the feel/immersion of their narrative style to use lots of exposition, so they don't.

While many mages and ascendants and gods (who, as mentioned, are just ascendants who have worshipers) have a good handle on how to use magic, it doesn't seem unreasonable that not many understand how it actually works. Even the warrens are likely older than most of them. Probably the only deity who understands fully how the warrens work is K'rul, and I can't recall seeing a single K'rul POV besides maybe the intro of MOI, which is likely deliberate on the authors' part. As for Icarium not understanding his new warrens... he suffers from amnesia and mental health issues, and I'm not sure he fully meant to create a new magic system. It would surprise me if he fully understood them.

I use my computer. I don't know exactly how it works, but that doesn't stop me from using it. Same with my fridge. Or my bass amp. Or the electrical grid in general.

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Now, regarding the timeline again, I realize Erikson is an anthropologist, it comes across very strongly in the first few books (which was thoroughly refreshing, really). The dates and times of events in the past don't have to be set in stone, but as for current events, there's no excuse for why it can't be planned in advance. And again, there are characters in the series who would know how long ago things happened... because they were there! Not all events need to be entirely clear, but certain events should become clearer (or, at least different versions of the same event) over time as new information is revealed.

Most of our POV characters are not the ones who are old enough to reveal exactly how things happened. Anomander Rake POVs are rare. Most of our POV characters aren't the ancient ascendants and gods of legend. And versions of events do become clearer. Or at least we get more perspectives, over the course of the series. You'll have to be more specific on which events you think should be clearer.

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The series is good, and Erikson does a lot of great stuff, but that doesn't mean he's immune to critique, or that certain things shouldn't be critiqued. The themes and overall idea of the plot is great, but he's got a lot of moving parts and that confuses some of his finer points (well, that and his writing style, but that's a different issue). Discussing these inconsistencies and ambiguities can actually help illuminate some of his points, actually. By figuring out where Erikson likely messed up and where he didn't, we can better understand the series... in fact, it wouldn't surprise me if his most glaring errors were actually on purpose to encourage discussion—or even discover what the "true" timeline is.

Lots of people have pointed out timeline errors before. The major one being Harllo's age in TTH.

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Also, by omniscient, I meant to distinguish it from limited, which sometimes implies that it's just told from one characters perspective. There's an invisible narrator here, but I didn't mean to imply the narrator knows everything.

Omniscient means all-knowing.

If you've been reading Malazan under the assumption that the narrator is all-knowing, then I'm sorry, but the fuck-up is yours.