[Khellendros]

Khellendros, on 13 September 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 13 September 2017 - 07:50 AM, said:

So if sources are to be believed, the Tories put through a power grab last night that means they don't have to have Parliament scrutinise how they handle talks / possible deals etc. Extremely worrying.

They won a vote on having Tory majorities on important legislative committees. These committees are supposed to be representative of the Common (e.g. if there were 40 Lab, 50 Tory, and 10 Lib Dem in the Commons, there would be 4 Lab, 5 Tory, and 1 Lib Dem on a 10-person committee). Currently, the Tories do not have a majority in the Commons, so they should not have a majority on the committees either. But they argued that their deal with the DUP effectively makes them a majority government (and then they allied with the DUP to push through the vote).

Update: An argument which has just been wholly invalidated by the fact that the DUP have now announced that they will vote with Labour and against the Tories on NHS and tuition fee votes (and thus meaning they cannot be counted as just an extra ten Tory votes).

[Maark Abbott]

Khellendros, on 13 September 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

Khellendros, on 13 September 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 13 September 2017 - 07:50 AM, said:

So if sources are to be believed, the Tories put through a power grab last night that means they don't have to have Parliament scrutinise how they handle talks / possible deals etc. Extremely worrying.

They won a vote on having Tory majorities on important legislative committees. These committees are supposed to be representative of the Common (e.g. if there were 40 Lab, 50 Tory, and 10 Lib Dem in the Commons, there would be 4 Lab, 5 Tory, and 1 Lib Dem on a 10-person committee). Currently, the Tories do not have a majority in the Commons, so they should not have a majority on the committees either. But they argued that their deal with the DUP effectively makes them a majority government (and then they allied with the DUP to push through the vote).

Update: An argument which has just been wholly invalidated by the fact that the DUP have now announced that they will vote with Labour and against the Tories on NHS and tuition fee votes (and thus meaning they cannot be counted as just an extra ten Tory votes).

I never thought I'd see the day where I said I was glad for the DUP... But here it is.

[worry]

So what was today's parliamentary vote and its aftermath all about, country cousins?

[Tiste Simeon]

Umm I'm still trying to work it out. It's good news, as far as I can tell. Seems like Theresa May wanted to pass a bill without parliamentary sovereignty (the same sovereignty many Quitters claimed they were actually voting for, not racism reasons, oh no sir...)

Everyone else said that there should be at least a parliamentary vote on the final deal (cos why wouldn't there be?) And that's what was voted on. I think.

It seems that they have taken "very slender majority on an advisory only referendum" to mean "everyone in the country should be extremely happy that whatever we do is exactly the right thing and any argument is treacherous or naysaying or just "project fear".

[glasseye]

Since the referendum May's government have argued that we're taking back sovereignty whilst trying to take it away from the UK Parliament and by extension the British people. This isn't even the first defeat on the issue as they lost in court against concerned citizens over an attempt to activate Article 50 without a vote in parliament. They have also tried within the Brexit bill to allow ministers to 'adjust' legislation as they see fit with little or no supervision. Fortunately they have failed so far.

Despite being in the weakest position of any Prime Minister since I was born, May appears to be trying to create a dictatorship using archaic powers such as royal prerogative and "Henry VIII" powers. Most Tories should be ashamed that they put their party above the national interest and vote for such anti-democratic proposals.

For most governments as weak as this one, this would bring them and the Prime Minister down. In this case, May's weakness is her strength because the Tories are so afraid of a real socialist like Corbyn gaining power that they won't push her out like they normally would.

[Maark Abbott]

Tiste Simeon, on 14 December 2017 - 01:22 AM, said:

Umm I'm still trying to work it out. It's good news, as far as I can tell. Seems like Theresa May wanted to pass a bill without parliamentary sovereignty (the same sovereignty many Quitters claimed they were actually voting for, not racism reasons, oh no sir...)

Everyone else said that there should be at least a parliamentary vote on the final deal (cos why wouldn't there be?) And that's what was voted on. I think.

It seems that they have taken "very slender majority on an advisory only referendum" to mean "everyone in the country should be extremely happy that whatever we do is exactly the right thing and any argument is treacherous or naysaying or just "project fear".

Have you seen the headline on the Mail today? Absolutely puerile, even for them. "One step closer to having a Marxist in No.10!" they wail, merely because some Tories actually decided to do the right thing.

glasseye, on 14 December 2017 - 07:41 AM, said:

Since the referendum May's government have argued that we're taking back sovereignty whilst trying to take it away from the UK Parliament and by extension the British people. This isn't even the first defeat on the issue as they lost in court against concerned citizens over an attempt to activate Article 50 without a vote in parliament. They have also tried within the Brexit bill to allow ministers to 'adjust' legislation as they see fit with little or no supervision. Fortunately they have failed so far.

Despite being in the weakest position of any Prime Minister since I was born, May appears to be trying to create a dictatorship using archaic powers such as royal prerogative and "Henry VIII" powers. Most Tories should be ashamed that they put their party above the national interest and vote for such anti-democratic proposals.

For most governments as weak as this one, this would bring them and the Prime Minister down. In this case, May's weakness is her strength because the Tories are so afraid of a real socialist like Corbyn gaining power that they won't push her out like they normally would.

I can't see any of their current run ending well at all. They've systematically alienated the young voters who Corbyn has managed to get out to the polling stations, and I highly doubt that when their current voter base dies off over the next five to ten years that we'll see a resurgence in their popularity.

[glasseye]

Maark Abbott, on 14 December 2017 - 08:03 AM, said:

Have you seen the headline on the Mail today? Absolutely puerile, even for them. "One step closer to having a Marxist in No.10!" they wail, merely because some Tories actually decided to do the right thing.

The Mail does have a history of Nazi sympathising. Being upset that we are not moving to a fascist state is just in character for them.

Maark Abbott, on 14 December 2017 - 08:03 AM, said:

I can't see any of their current run ending well at all. They've systematically alienated the young voters who Corbyn has managed to get out to the polling stations, and I highly doubt that when their current voter base dies off over the next five to ten years that we'll see a resurgence in their popularity.

That's what I'm hoping for but as much as the younger generation has been alienated, much of the older generations remains either strongly in favour of the Tories or strongly against Corbyn.

The Tories can't help themselves when helping the wealthy at the expense of the poor and the young. Housing is a problem with excessive rents. Rent control? No. Extend Help to Buy which has proven to benefit housing developers, not first time buyers and stamp duty exemption which every economist agrees will benefit sellers but not buyers. Plus the average saving in the North is about £25.

[Tiste Simeon]

For those who haven't seen the fascist hate rag spewing it's most recent bile, here it is with added "Another Angry Voice" commentary:

Attached File(s)

•  Daily Mail hatred front page.jpg (385.32K)
  Number of downloads: 0

[Andorion]

Wow... like standing up for parliamentary sovereignty which is the bedrock of British democracy is suddenly a bad thing...

[worry]

They know they only have a certain amount of time for looting before the generational shift takes hold. Even in Alabama, Doug Jones was >60% among voters 18-44.

[Maark Abbott]

worry, on 14 December 2017 - 08:54 PM, said:

They know they only have a certain amount of time for looting before the generational shift takes hold. Even in Alabama, Doug Jones was >60% among voters 18-44.

You can apply this to almost the entirety of Brexit. Most younger people are against it as it has very little benefit. The main voter base for it were the rich who stand to gain from it, and the people who hate moose limbs.

[Mezla PigDog]

I assume it is the same in other countries but in the UK we always say that people become more right wing as they get older. Less tolerant, protecting their assets etc. Considering the new trend that young people can no longer aspire to the property and job security that older people typically have, I wonder what the impact of this will be. I hope it means we continue to become more socialist. Just not so socialist I lose any of my hard earned assets!

[EmperorMagus]

Mezla PigDog, on 15 December 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

I assume it is the same in other countries but in the UK we always say that people become more right wing as they get older. Less tolerant, protecting their assets etc. Considering the new trend that young people can no longer aspire to the property and job security that older people typically have, I wonder what the impact of this will be. I hope it means we continue to become more socialist. Just not so socialist I lose any of my hard earned assets!

I actually don't agree that people become more rightwing as they get older.

It's true that at any point in time, a higher number of old people are rightwing rather than left, but that's the basic definition of conservatism - keeping things as they already are or returning them to the way they were (reactionaries). Obviously older people will be more likely to prefer the way things were when they were young, but that doesn't mean people somehow change their ideology as they age.

[worry]

Isn't there a word for that? For when something is conventional wisdom but untrue?

I always wanna say 'truism' but those actually are true, but like stating the obvious.

[Gorefest]

It seems increasingly likely that the UK is going to crash out of the bloc with no deal at all in place. It baffles the mind that more than two years after the original referendum, government still has no clue at all what they actually want to get out of this process or what leaving the EU should look like. Kindergarten politics.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 02 July 2018 - 12:55 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

I am still absolutely furious about Brexit. People are still supporting it and saying everything is fine. The level of disillusionment is astonishing. Our government is utterly shambolic and our PM is pathetic and weak, controlled by a bunch of far right Brextemists. It's an utter disheartening situation and I want to scream all the time.

[Mezla PigDog]

I've got so much goddamned extra work to do because my company is opening a second identical business in the Netherlands so that in the event of no deal or a bad deal for our sector we can transfer everything over there without a break. Supposedly Holland is looking at EUR 3bn pa Brexit dividend from increased taxes from other businesses doing the same. The Dutch government are being very accommodating! Ireland is in a similar position as businesses are moving to places where you can still operate in English. Just grateful I can do my job from anywhere so I'm not looking at unemployment but the extra work is a massive pain in the arse.

This post has been edited by Mezla PigDog: 02 July 2018 - 07:35 PM

[Coco with marshmallows]

Mezla PigDog, on 02 July 2018 - 07:34 PM, said:

I've got so much goddamned extra work to do because my company is opening a second identical business in the Netherlands so that in the event of no deal or a bad deal for our sector we can transfer everything over there without a break. Supposedly Holland is looking at EUR 3bn pa Brexit dividend from increased taxes from other businesses doing the same. The Dutch government are being very accommodating! Ireland is in a similar position as businesses are moving to places where you can still operate in English. Just grateful I can do my job from anywhere so I'm not looking at unemployment but the extra work is a massive pain in the arse.

But if you mention/suggest that fact to Brexiters you get cries of:

"project fear!"
"fake news"
"f*ck them we'll build our own company to do the same thing"
etc.....

[Tiste Simeon]

I have one guy going "well we don't know what is actually going to happen and I'd rather we do it with freedom than with them in Brussels hanging over our heads" or words to that effect. Told him that firstly yes we do know what's going to happen because it's already happening and secondly that there isn't a supposed freedom that we'll be getting that we didn't already have under the EU but he didn't care. It's baffling.

[worry]

Imagine defining 'freedom' as the ability to throw a tantrum that breaks society, instead of as like freedom from constant economic anxiety or geographical restraint or labor abuses.