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Brexit or bremain Will the UK leave the EU or not?

Poll: Bremain or brexit (61 member(s) have cast votes)

What would you vote

  1. Bremain (53 votes [86.89%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 86.89%

  2. Brexit (8 votes [13.11%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.11%

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#101 User is online   Gorefest 

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 10:49 AM

View PostKanyemander West, on 24 June 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

Couple questions:
I've heard it actually takes a few years of negotiation before the Brexit is actually finalized. Any chance that say in one year a new vote might just reverse this decision?


Even though a referendum technically speaking is not binding, the current government has said throughout the process that they will respect the outcome and act accordingly. The expectation is that, with the resignation of Cameron, the Tories will choose a new leader at their next party conference in October. The new leader will undoubtedly be someone who is in favour of an EU withdrawal, as they will have to guide the country through negotiations. The new leader will then most likely enact article 50, which is the EU legislation that sets in motion a full withdrawal from the EU. Once that process is started, it is very hard to see how it can be reverted even if people wanted it to. So although the actual negotiations will take years (people talk about a full withdrawal by 2020 at the very earliest, probably more like 7 years), when it is set in motion in October, that's it.



Quote

As Tiste has pointed out, this is essentially a poll -- a pretty exhaustive one, with plenty of apparent power, but nevertheless technically non-binding. And yah I've heard it described as political suicide to defy the popular vote -- but is it really? And aside from those political stakes, isn't one of the points of a representative government to overrule the worst impulses of popular opinion? What exactly would the fallout be?


As I mentioned above, although technically speaking the result is not binding, all parties agreed to abide by the outcome. Once a new, pro-leave PM is in place (possibly *shudders* Boris Johnson), it is hard to see it being stopped from there on in. It is more likely that the EU itself will change or break up before the negotiations finish than that the UK will do a U-turn.
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#102 User is offline   TheRetiredBridgeburner 

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 11:11 AM

There's a BorisforPM hashtag on Twitter.

Britain, WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?

Edit: and now Labour have moved against Corbyn.

It was never much of a hope - "just a fool's hope" as a certain wizard once said - but I really felt that Corbyn was the hope for change. If Labour no confidence him, they'll elect another Blair or Milliband and that will be it, the Tories will stay in.

Also, my hometown returned Leave, and I feel bizarrely personally let down about it. I love my city, I wanted to think better of it.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 24 June 2016 - 11:21 AM

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#103 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 11:24 AM

View PostTheRetiredBridgeburner, on 24 June 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

There's a BorisforPM hashtag on Twitter.

Britain, WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?


I think this is a case of 'welcome to America's reality' - racism and nationalism aren't dead, people are short-sighted and just a little bit selfish, and the votes still go to whoever shouts the loudest and makes the most empty promises of a better tomorrow.

Sure, there's a large and valid problem with the way wages have stagnated around the world and there is more and more money getting into politics but, at the end of the day, there is still a very large body of people who cling to romantic ideas of 'the good old days' and traditions that are rather disturbing. Between those two things, you get outcomes like this.
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#104 User is offline   Solidsnape 

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 11:27 AM

View PostTheRetiredBridgeburner, on 24 June 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

There's a BorisforPM hashtag on Twitter.

Britain, WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?

Edit: and now Labour have moved against Corbyn.

It was never much of a hope - "just a fool's hope" as a certain wizard once said - but I really felt that Corbyn was the hope for change. If Labour no confidence him, they'll elect another Blair or Milliband and that will be it, the Tories will stay in.

Also, my hometown returned Leave, and I feel bizarrely personally let down about it. I love my city, I wanted to think better of it.


Me too. Even though Newcastle upon Tyne was the only north east area that had a remain majority, it was only by 1%.
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#105 User is offline   Khellendros 

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 11:39 AM

View PostMorgoth, on 24 June 2016 - 10:04 AM, said:

View PostKanyemander West, on 24 June 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

Couple questions:
I've heard it actually takes a few years of negotiation before the Brexit is actually finalized. Any chance that say in one year a new vote might just reverse this decision?

As Tiste has pointed out, this is essentially a poll -- a pretty exhaustive one, with plenty of apparent power, but nevertheless technically non-binding. And yah I've heard it described as political suicide to defy the popular vote -- but is it really? And aside from those political stakes, isn't one of the points of a representative government to overrule the worst impulses of popular opinion? What exactly would the fallout be?


The new leader of the Tories will either be Boris Johnson, or someone equally pleased with the choice to leave. I suppose if there was a new parliamentary election before the choice is made, and that labour won by a strong margin, and that labour acquired a more pro EU leader, they might be willing to ignore the popular vote. Maybe.



While it is technically possible for Parliament to call an early election with a two-thirds in favour vote (and as there are more than two-thirds of MPs in favour of remain, this is the most technically possible part of what I'm about to say), and then for a pro-EU, presumably Labour, government to be elected and therefore tear up the referendum result with the power of their new mandate which they could say overrides the referendum...that's not going to happen.

1) Because Labour will be too shit-scared to lose even more voters by campaigning pro-EU.
2) Because the country, if they voted for Brexit, also won't vote in a pro-EU government.
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#106 User is offline   TheRetiredBridgeburner 

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 11:40 AM

View PostSolidsnape, on 24 June 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

View PostTheRetiredBridgeburner, on 24 June 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

There's a BorisforPM hashtag on Twitter.

Britain, WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?

Edit: and now Labour have moved against Corbyn.

It was never much of a hope - "just a fool's hope" as a certain wizard once said - but I really felt that Corbyn was the hope for change. If Labour no confidence him, they'll elect another Blair or Milliband and that will be it, the Tories will stay in.

Also, my hometown returned Leave, and I feel bizarrely personally let down about it. I love my city, I wanted to think better of it.


Me too. Even though Newcastle upon Tyne was the only north east area that had a remain majority, it was only by 1%.
Shocked.


2% Leave majority for Sheffield, but it's there.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 24 June 2016 - 11:45 AM

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#107 User is offline   Primateus 

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 11:50 AM

One of my former MMO buddies with whom I occasionally exchange opinions with on Facebook wrote that he foresaw a further fracturing and war in western Europe within the next 25 years. I doubt it, most western european countries, including GB, are members of NATO. However, should a potential Trump presidency in the US result in him making good on his claim that the US should leave NATO entirely, then I see problems.

I doubt it, but I do agree with his thought that there's plenty of potential for this snowball to gather size and become an avalanche of troubles in the future.

But, we shall hope for the best, because all those problems that everyone warned against hasn't happened yet and it's not certain that they will. I hope they don't.
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#108 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 12:11 PM

View PostSilencer, on 24 June 2016 - 11:24 AM, said:

View PostTheRetiredBridgeburner, on 24 June 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

There's a BorisforPM hashtag on Twitter.

Britain, WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?


I think this is a case of 'welcome to America's reality' - racism and nationalism aren't dead, people are short-sighted and just a little bit selfish, and the votes still go to whoever shouts the loudest and makes the most empty promises of a better tomorrow.

Sure, there's a large and valid problem with the way wages have stagnated around the world and there is more and more money getting into politics but, at the end of the day, there is still a very large body of people who cling to romantic ideas of 'the good old days' and traditions that are rather disturbing. Between those two things, you get outcomes like this.

One thing I am totally expecting this result to do is to galvanize the Trump supporters further via the "everyone who is smart is looking out for themselves right now" rhetoric.

And their "politically correct" opponents just might roll over like the Remains in UK, thinking "surely there can't be THAT many crazies voting out there?"

Except there can be. Masses voting out of frustration can be really scary.
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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#109 User is offline   Battalion 

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 12:15 PM

Cannot believe the BULLSHIT on here. Screaming racist at all and any leave voters. Get over yourselves. If scotland vote to leave the UK will it be racist? No. If northern ireland vote for uk independence, will that be a vote of hate? No. But if britain votes to leave the fedit, soon to be collapsing like a deck of cards, EU, we're all racists. Go fuck yourselves.
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#110 User is offline   Primateus 

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 12:31 PM

View PostBattalion, on 24 June 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

Cannot believe the BULLSHIT on here. Screaming racist at all and any leave voters. Get over yourselves. If scotland vote to leave the UK will it be racist? No. If northern ireland vote for uk independence, will that be a vote of hate? No. But if britain votes to leave the fedit, soon to be collapsing like a deck of cards, EU, we're all racists. Go fuck yourselves.


Has xenophobia been one the driving forces of the exit campaign?
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#111 User is offline   Battalion 

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 12:36 PM

No, it hasn't. You may be refering to legitimate concerns on immigration? Not sure.
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#112 User is offline   TheRetiredBridgeburner 

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 12:40 PM

View PostBattalion, on 24 June 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

Cannot believe the BULLSHIT on here. Screaming racist at all and any leave voters. Get over yourselves. If scotland vote to leave the UK will it be racist? No. If northern ireland vote for uk independence, will that be a vote of hate? No. But if britain votes to leave the fedit, soon to be collapsing like a deck of cards, EU, we're all racists. Go fuck yourselves.


Post-decision this morning, Egwene mentioned the campaigns in the press - which isn't spin, it's fact. The right wing press have led quite a campaign based around "us/them".

Nobody else has mentioned anything to do with race and certainly hasn't said anything personally against any leave voters.

We're as entitled to express our disappointment as you are to express your happiness with the result. Wind your neck in - this board is supposed to be civil. Telling people to "go fuck themselves" doesn't have a place here.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 24 June 2016 - 12:50 PM

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#113 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 01:07 PM

Most of the Leave campaign has been about 'take our country back' and 'get control of our borders' and 'this brown person could be a terrorist' so I'd say yeah, racism (or at least bigotry) had a large part to play. Britain First and the BNP must be so proud people are doing what they want them to.

But then I suppose heading for a third recession and yet MORE uncontrollable austerity measures is a really good thing. How did I not see it before? Oh lawdy, I done seed the light.
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#114 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 01:14 PM

I don't recall many people screaming racists at the brexit camp. idiots yes, but not racists.

Whilst Bojo has been angling (from what I've seen) at the political angle of "taking back our democracy" you can hardly argue that farage and co have been hyping on immigration, which is a xenophobic move, and could easily be construed as a racist us v them. and lets face it, with assholes like farage, they probably are just racist.

Scotland and NI, majourity white country, wanting to split from england and the uk, a majourity white country because england voted to break from a more cosmopolitan and diverse futre with eurpoe makes scotland and NI racist.
You run with that Battalion. say it nice and slowly to yourself again and see why no one is shouting that scotland are racist for wanting to stay IN the EU.


This is the kind of person who voted Brexit, exhibit fucking A. sorry B
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#115 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 01:30 PM

FYI, I don't equate Trump supporters with racists. There's overlap, sure, but I'm much more interested in the "frustrated voters" narrative we've been observing for years now. It taps deep into xenophobia, true, but I think it goes deeper than that.

Primarily what we're seeing is a result from growing disconnect between the elite and those voting them in. Short-term nature of modern Western politics (circumscribed by a short election cycle) means no accomplished politician offers a strategic vision of the future. Say what you will about the Communists, but they offered people a dream. Western politicians don't offer dreams. They offer material, consumerist prosperity. And therefore any time a state experiences ANY economic setback (which are inevitable, in the cyclical nature of capitalism), the "people" who feel entitled to prosperity judge it a political failure.

Cue coming up with easy solutions and looking for scapegoats to survive the next election. Meanwhile, systemic problems accumulate. Eventually, people get fed up with the same measured BS, and become receptive to more radical ideas, especially those tickling their self-esteem- we're the best ever, it's only XYZ holding us back, let's get rid of them!

In a way, sure, it's a "revolution". But a very cynical and well-designed one.
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

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#116 User is online   Gorefest 

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 01:33 PM

View PostBattalion, on 24 June 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

Cannot believe the BULLSHIT on here. Screaming racist at all and any leave voters. Get over yourselves. If scotland vote to leave the UK will it be racist? No. If northern ireland vote for uk independence, will that be a vote of hate? No. But if britain votes to leave the fedit, soon to be collapsing like a deck of cards, EU, we're all racists. Go fuck yourselves.


You really make an eloquent point for the brexit camp. Not stereotype confirming at all, this.

The reality is that the referendum has been hijacked by a small majority of the electorate to voice their general misgivings about sustained austerity, migration worries that are fueled by the terrorist threat and the situation in the Middle-East, and a sense of not feeling heard or represented in Westminster. All to a more or lesser extent relevant concerns, but you have to question whether a referendum on the EU was the right platform to raise these concerns instead of a national election. The ramifications of this choice will echo much louder and further and have a far bigger impact than any outcome of a national election would have had. Feel disenfranchised, fair enough, but don't dump the entire country and potentially the entire continent in a renewed slump because of it.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 24 June 2016 - 01:34 PM

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#117 User is offline   Egwene 

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 01:43 PM

View PostTheRetiredBridgeburner, on 24 June 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

View PostBattalion, on 24 June 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

Cannot believe the BULLSHIT on here. Screaming racist at all and any leave voters. Get over yourselves. If scotland vote to leave the UK will it be racist? No. If northern ireland vote for uk independence, will that be a vote of hate? No. But if britain votes to leave the fedit, soon to be collapsing like a deck of cards, EU, we're all racists. Go fuck yourselves.


Post-decision this morning, Egwene mentioned the campaigns in the press - which isn't spin, it's fact. The right wing press have led quite a campaign based around "us/them".

Nobody else has mentioned anything to do with race and certainly hasn't said anything personally against any leave voters.

We're as entitled to express our disappointment as you are to express your happiness with the result. Wind your neck in - this board is supposed to be civil. Telling people to "go fuck themselves" doesn't have a place here.


Further to that - well, of course no one mentions racism in the press because - we are not racist, printing story after story of anti-immigration events isn't selective coverage, it is just...hmmm... I am sure there is a word for it but objective reporting it is not. Anyone who totally believes in the output of those papers has already given over their independent thinking and is shackled by something far worse than the EU has ever been.

As for the 'leave voters' - my own opinion about them is based on what just about everyone who told me they were voting leave said, i.e, we want to stop immigrants coming in, we want Britain back for the British. More often than not, that was said in such tones that left little doubt that it was a case of 'we don't want anyone who isn't like us' and more than once, it was stated outright. Anytime there was an online article about the referendum, another spout of anti-immigration outbursts, often in pretty nasty language with definite racist overtones. No concrete researched figures to back up the advantage of a brexit, just a lot of the type of language used by Battalion above. As for the collapse of the EU - well, if it happens, guess whom the rest of Europe is going to point at. Don't throw the toy out of the pram and then blame others if it then gets broken as someone else stumbles over it. If you voted 'leave', the consequences of that vote are your doing... although... just keep on reading those papers... they are bound to hand you another scapegoat as soon as they can find a suitable one!

In case you missed it, 'leave' voters, I am really quite upset that this wonderful country has endorsed these vitriolic views of intolerance, nationalism, insularity, and also economic senselessness. And none of it is going to be for the better of anyone, least of all those who voted 'leave'. Any costs will be born mostly by the very group who is dissatisfied and has voted out.

But hey - who is to say that after thousands of years, history might not do something different rather than repeat itself....
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#118 User is offline   Nicodimas 

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 02:10 PM

My thoughts, Uk did a great thing standing up for their independence and not be part of the cabal...



A long road ahead, they have a ton to figure out the next two years, but they look to be a stronger country moving forward.
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Posted 24 June 2016 - 02:17 PM

I am going to step in here because this thread has the potential to become heated very quickly. This is going to be a very sensitive topic with a lot of emotion on all sides. I have seen no direct attacks against members and will move in quickly if I do. It was a vote that split the UK in two as such both sides should respect each others opinion. Yes the Leave won by 4% but that means that 48% of the country voted to stay. There will be disappointment and joy on both sides. Please remember to keep this topic civil and the discussion on the relevant topic.


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#120 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 02:19 PM

View PostNicodimas, on 24 June 2016 - 02:10 PM, said:

My thoughts, Uk did a great thing standing up for their independence and not be part of the cabal...



A long road ahead, they have a ton to figure out the next two years, but they look to be a stronger country moving forward.

What remains to be seen is who will be setting the agenda for the people who decided to "master their own destiny". As with any momentous change, there's always an opportunity, no matter how miniscule, of the appropriate people with the message and the plan to benefit the majority to take charge, with long term strategic goals and beneficial outcome.

Sadly, most of the time, the frustrated voters "make themselves heard" and then go back home to have tea, and "now that we did our part, let someone else work it all out"

Which is most often an invitation for a different branch of the cabal to take up where the last one left off.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 24 June 2016 - 02:21 PM

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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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