Malazan Empire: Let's talk about that ending - Malazan Empire

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Let's talk about that ending

#1 User is offline   Giantblaze 

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 08:59 PM

Just as the topic title says, I want to talk about that ending.
Spoiler

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#2 User is offline   The Hust Legion 

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 12:50 AM

View PostGiantblaze, on 03 May 2016 - 08:59 PM, said:

Just as the topic title says, I want to talk about that ending.
Spoiler



Spoiler

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#3 User is offline   Dragnipurake 

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 02:17 AM

Spoiler


Not sure if spoilers are necessary if the thread title is an adequate warning.

This post has been edited by Dragnipurake: 04 May 2016 - 02:18 AM

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#4 User is offline   Giantblaze 

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 05:20 AM

View PostDragnipurake, on 04 May 2016 - 02:17 AM, said:

Spoiler


Not sure if spoilers are necessary if the thread title is an adequate warning.


Yeah it probably isn't necessary, i just mainly did it just in case someone clicked on the wrong topic and ended up in here. I feel like they have to bring him back. I don't know if I remember correctly but I feel like one of the books with Osseric in it, I feel like it was ICE's book (blood and bones maybe?), but I feel like Osseric has said stuff hinting that Urusander is still alive. Maybe he had to do, kind of like shadowthrone, the whole you have to die to ascend thing that has been mentioned a few times in the main series.
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#5 User is offline   TheRetiredBridgeburner 

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 06:02 AM

Personally I hope he stays dead. One of the things I like about Erikson's writing over a lot of other big fantasy out there is that death stands. It doesn't always mean dead and gone forever (see towards the end of the main series) but dead is dead. It would spoil the huge impact of the ending if in Walk in Shadow we get some sort of "Ah, not really."
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#6 User is offline   Giantblaze 

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 12:19 PM

I agree that I hope he does stay dead, but I'm not too sure about it. Only one way to know though, and that is to wait. One thing I liked about the ending though was that Renarr said what I believe every reader was thinking. "I wish ... you had killed Hunn Raal"
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#7 User is offline   The Hust Legion 

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 11:04 PM

idk i wanted him to die urusander was kinda getting on my nerves "there will be justice" but he wasnt going to do anything about it, he was just going to let it continue, i felt like FoD really built him up like he was the liosan verrsion of rake, honour etc and when he adopted rennarr at the end and took matter into his own hands i thought hed have a much more hands on role, then sharenas killed half of hunn raals posse cause he wouldnt do anything and that didnt wake him up, he just seemed like an empty husk this book that had just given up "ah well raals done all this might as well get swept with the tide now. i mean he was meant to be a great general none of that shone through i mean he was empty... like a myhbe. so the only way for him was death tbf. im glad rennarr didnt kill hunn raal that bastard deserves dragnipur hopefully at rakes hands too... cause doesnt draconus wield it at the start. but i heard kadaspala was one of the first people killed by it... not sure.
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#8 User is offline   Giantblaze 

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Posted 08 May 2016 - 12:40 AM

Not quite at the very end but I really liked how we had like 3 different tellings of the battle. One from Rise Herat, I think (my kindle is dead so I can't check), where he imagines what is happening. One from Wreneck and Hust's little game with the toys and the last one from Kellaras. All had the same main idea down but each told us something a little different. I have to say it made me respect Draconus more, and it was interesting seeing that him and Anomander were all close and respected each other so much.
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#9 User is offline   Lycaenion 

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 04:45 PM

I also didn't see that coming, but I remember thinking "Please don't make Hunn Raal Father Light."
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#10 User is offline   Randomander 

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 05:21 PM

After I finished reading this scene, I was immediately brought back to the initial conversation between Urusander and Mother Dark. Urusander spoke of Osseric and said - I'm paraphrasing as I don't have my book with me right now - that Osseric is his chosen heir and would be the soul inheritor, as Renaar denounced her claim to any inheritance. Off to the side after Urusander departs the chamber we witness a brief conversation between Renarr and Hun Raal, in which Renaar circles back to emphasize the point Urusander had just made in that Osseric would be the soul inheritor in all that is his. This leaves Hun Raal somewhat troubled, as from what we can draw from his character he is very ambitious and likely had some plans to usurp Urusander at some point, and now Renaar has planted another adversary between him and the throne. On top of all of this, the conversation between Renaar and Urusander just before she stabs him in the back circles around how she has forgiven Osseric. I think this is fair evidence to say that Osseric will inherit the throne, probably much to his dismay, and will become the Father Light he is worshiped as throughout the MbotF main arc.
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#11 User is offline   Axey 

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 09:32 PM

In The TCG, Kadagar Fant talks about Father Light abandoning the realm. "Osserc is dead in our eyes and shall remain so. Even Father Light kneels broken, useless and blind." Therefore, I always thought Osserc was Father Light but it appears not. We know Father Light has abandoned the Liossan.

So Treach ascended to godhood by death. Mother Dark may have died by throwing herself off the Spar of Andii into Chaos before she became a goddess. Ursander may well have needed to die to become the true god, Father Light who becomes so disgusted by the Issgin (Hunn Raal) Lord of Light dynasty he abandons them.
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#12 User is offline   Nevyn 

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Posted 14 May 2016 - 05:41 AM

Its not like Father light features heavily from here on out. In fact, it would be in keeping with the main series if a select few conspire to keep people believing Urusander still alive, and the Liosan never know he is gone ...
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#13 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 14 May 2016 - 05:48 AM

Is it just me or are most of the Liosan not very smart? I mean most people don't trust Hunn Raal, yet they are fine with him doing whatever he likes.
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#14 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 15 May 2016 - 12:02 AM

I just finished. Is it wrong that I'm bugged to no end that Urusander's heart is on the left, but in HoC L'Loric survives assassination. b/c Liosan hear is on the right?
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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#15 User is offline   Randomander 

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Posted 16 May 2016 - 06:45 PM

View PostMentalist, on 15 May 2016 - 12:02 AM, said:

I just finished. Is it wrong that I'm bugged to no end that Urusander's heart is on the left, but in HoC L'Loric survives assassination. b/c Liosan hear is on the right?


I believe that L'oric survives because of his almost god-like abilities and parentage. The scene concludes saying something along the lines of "and so he retreated into himself, as no mortal wound could sever his spirit" or something along those lines. Meaning he is not simply bound to the physical body he possesses, and regardless of what physical harm he takes he cannot die from simple sword or dagger alone. If you have any textual evidence supporting the theory his hearts placement was what kept him from dying, ill gladly change my stance but I dont remember that being the case.
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#16 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 10:55 PM

View PostRandomander, on 16 May 2016 - 06:45 PM, said:

View PostMentalist, on 15 May 2016 - 12:02 AM, said:

I just finished. Is it wrong that I'm bugged to no end that Urusander's heart is on the left, but in HoC L'Loric survives assassination. b/c Liosan hear is on the right?


I believe that L'oric survives because of his almost god-like abilities and parentage. The scene concludes saying something along the lines of "and so he retreated into himself, as no mortal wound could sever his spirit" or something along those lines. Meaning he is not simply bound to the physical body he possesses, and regardless of what physical harm he takes he cannot die from simple sword or dagger alone. If you have any textual evidence supporting the theory his hearts placement was what kept him from dying, ill gladly change my stance but I dont remember that being the case.


We are both wrong, actually. I was talking about when L'Loric is stabbed as he's trying to get Dryjhna to take him instead of Felisin Fatter

Quote

And a voice spoke low behind L'oric. "Interfering bastard"
HE spun, but too late, as a wide-bladed knife was driven deep between his ribs, tearing a savage path to his heart.
Or where his heart should have been, had L'oric been human
The serrated tip missed, sliding in front of the deep-seated organ, then jammed into the side of the sternum


So, on the left, but not same as human. Still, one would expect Tiste to know where it was, so Vatha is most likely dead.
The problem with the gene pool is that there's no lifeguard
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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#17 User is offline   Siergiej 

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 10:23 PM

Just finished my read and I must say that I am pretty disappointed. Will share more thoughts about the book later on, but the ending was a let down. I'd say that the last chapter was the weakest conclusion we've seen from Erikson, barring Dust of Dreams that barely had any conclusion (but that made sense, because of how it tied into The Crippled God).

Majority of the book was a buildup for a battle that was to decide the fate of Kurald Galain. A stretched, dragging buildup, that really left me thirsty for events. So finally we get to the battle and oh boy, does it start amazing: sorcery is unleashed, dragons are drawn in, Azathanai are approaching, and we also see through the eyes of Wreneck the first effects of Hood's invasion on the realm of death. It sure looks like Erikson is finally stepping up his game to deliver a finale worthy of Malazan convergences and then... all the tension just wears of. Instead of battle POVs - something SE excels at - we get to witness the skirmish through ramblings of Henarald Hust and Rise Herat. And after 800 pages of Fall of Light, I was pretty fed up with ramblings. When the POV shifts to Kellaras, the battle is already finished though we still get to taste some of the drama between Anomander, Draconus, Silchas, and the highborn, which is pretty great. But that's not enough: we are only told about Infayen, Galar, and Ivis dying after the fact, in an offhang manner. I would have expected these deaths to be the focal point of the battle's narrative, especially with all the drama surrounding the fall of Galar Balas (Toras Redone going suicidal) and Ivis (the destruction of Dracons Houseblades). And that war on death reference just somehow vanishes and is not touched upon outside Wreneck's POV.

The only thing I liked about the final chapter was the dialogue about fighting for love between Draconus and Anomander, as recollected by Kellaras, and then Anomander having to choose between using Caladan to slaughter the Liosan or losing the battle. It was powerful and one of few high points of Fall of Light. You could draw a parallel between Memories of Ice and Fall of Light, with Anomander being the staying hand that stops Caladan from unleashing his power.

The final few pages also left me confused. It sure was surprising, but I don't like how Erikson has switched from complete but open-ended stories in Malazan Book of the Fallen (again, barrind Dust of Dreams) to cliffhangers in the Kharkanas trilogy. I understand that trilogy demands a different narrative style but the ending feels too abrupt, lacking a clear idea behind wrapping up the story in such a way.

Story-wise, I agree with people who think that Liosan will claim Father Light has vanished. I don't think Hunn Raal will be ascending to be Father Light.
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#18 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 11:47 PM

Interesting angle. Makes me wonder what percentage of fiction books end/don't end in battles.
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#19 User is offline   blackzoid 

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Posted 19 May 2016 - 10:48 AM

Though I was turned off by the amount of ramblings/navel gazing (I loved that chapter with Osserc and Scarbandari where there was none), I thought the battle worked. It was poetic and different. I dont think I would have liked it in a MboTF book but this isnt one of those exactly. Its a self contained trilogy. Kind-of a DoD-TCG situation in 3 parts. I'm hoping for a knock-my-pants off battle at the end of the next but for this, the weird way SE did the battle wasnt one of my complaints.
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#20 User is offline   The Hust Legion 

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Posted 19 May 2016 - 07:18 PM

i still dont get the wreneck thing and the little was it like chess pieces that acted out a battle.... what battle was it depicting the anomander one or?...
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