[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I've just finished the book. I hope Abyss won't mind too much if I semi-borrow his thread style!

Obviously SPOILERS. MANY SPOILERS. Don't go down the post unless you've finished reading.
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First off, I liked Fall more than Forge, which I thought was a brilliant book. I think the fact there is naturally a little less set up being the middle book of three, and the inspired addition of humour through the Thel Akai lift it above its predecessor. It was great to read the beginnings of the War on Death and see Hood's army form - I genuinely can't wait to see that play out.

Getting hints of how Shadow forms - including a first hint at Scara Bandaris' involvement - was brilliant. I loved the thread involving Yedan Narad and the Deniers. One of my favourite little moments was when Narad asks Glyph what the old word for "shore" is. He replies "Emurlahn." The glimpses into the Shake of the future, including characters with whom we are already familiar from tBotF was wonderfully done.

The progression of the Hust Legion story was really surprising and a great read. I particularly love the fractious and vengeful relationship between Toras Redone and Faror Hend towards the end. Dathenar and Prazeck are simply inspired writing, there's no other word for it. They're endlessly entertaining but also deliver some real punches to the audience.

We met Orfantal in the first book. This time, we meet Korlat, and see the reason for her assurance to Twilight "my blood is not pure". It's one of the most harrowing scenes in the book, and you can feel nothing but pity for Sandalath and some measure of understanding in why she so fiercely rejects her daughter. She is absolutely, thoroughly broken and she is difficult to read - as she should be.

I loved, absolutely loved the commentary on the nature of religion and those who create it which pervades the story lines surrounding Vatha Urusander, Syntara and the Liosan and equally and opposing of Mother Dark, Lanrear and those in the temple in Kharkanas. It's there throughout, but the final dialogue between Lanrear and Mother Dark really brings it home in a blaze of glory. Mother Dark refuses to give Lanrear a book of rules, and when she does go on to hold up basic decency, compassion and the avoidance of harming others as virtues, in the face of Lanrear proclaiming them finally having purpose MD chillingly responds "You didn't need me for those things." The concept of the gift of love being misunderstood and twisted plays out beautifully and provokes a good bit of thought.

The various comments SE has made about the language being a huge factor in the Kharkanas books is really evident throughout. Without wishing to rabidly fangirl (who am I kidding?) the man is just ludicrously talented with words.

All in all, it's brilliant. I genuinely can't wait to see how this all plays out and finishes in Walk in Shadow.

Anyway, some favourites:

FAVOURITE NEW CHARACTER: Sort of cheating, we meet Renarr in Forge, but she's fleshed out in a point of view here and I love it.

BEST APPEARANCE OF A CHARACTER FROM TBTOF: Telorast and Curdle. Good to know they've always been asshats. Brilliant, entertaining asshats.

FAVOURITE SCENE: Probably the ones involving those two.

FUNNIEST NOD BACK: No, I don't know Tehol the Only.

SCARIEST LINE: "Vatha Urusander, there will be justice" - "there will be justice" comes up several times, but when you read the book you'll know exactly which one I mean. Christ, and I thought the last scenes of Forge were chilling.

BIGGEST "I WANT TO KNOW MORE": More on the arrival of the "Grey Shore" of Shadow, and the hint that the ancient Tiste held the blood of Tiam within them. It suggests that possibly Anomander et al don't have to "acquire" the draconic blood, they maybe just have to "awaken" it.

SADDEST MOMENT: The description of Draconus through Kellaras' eyes when Silchas tells him he has to leave.

CANDIDATE FOR "DEAR SWEET MOTHER DARK WHY AREN'T YOU DEAD YET?": Hunn Raal.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 01 May 2016 - 11:03 AM

[Cedz]

Spoiler

So, do you think Telorast and Curdle are two of the original Ancient Tiste who drank draconic blood and then were slapped down by the Azathanai as depicted in some of the old paintings viewed by the Historian? I believe it is Ardata who mentions that they have ancient Tiste blood and it is odd that they can veer into Tiste forms as we have never seen other full blooded dragons ever do that before.

[The Hust Legion]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 01 May 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

I've just finished the book. I hope Abyss won't mind too much if I semi-borrow his thread style!

Obviously SPOILERS. MANY SPOILERS. Don't go down the post unless you've finished reading.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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First off, I liked Fall more than Forge, which I thought was a brilliant book. I think the fact there is naturally a little less set up being the middle book of three, and the inspired addition of humour through the Thel Akai lift it above its predecessor. It was great to read the beginnings of the War on Death and see Hood's army form - I genuinely can't wait to see that play out.

Getting hints of how Shadow forms - including a first hint at Scara Bandaris' involvement - was brilliant. I loved the thread involving Yedan Narad and the Deniers. One of my favourite little moments was when Narad asks Glyph what the old word for "shore" is. He replies "Emurlahn." The glimpses into the Shake of the future, including characters with whom we are already familiar from tBotF was wonderfully done.

The progression of the Hust Legion story was really surprising and a great read. I particularly love the fractious and vengeful relationship between Toras Redone and Faror Hend towards the end. Dathenar and Prazeck are simply inspired writing, there's no other word for it. They're endlessly entertaining but also deliver some real punches to the audience.

We met Orfantal in the first book. This time, we meet Korlat, and see the reason for her assurance to Twilight "my blood is not pure". It's one of the most harrowing scenes in the book, and you can feel nothing but pity for Sandalath and some measure of understanding in why she so fiercely rejects her daughter. She is absolutely, thoroughly broken and she is difficult to read - as she should be.

I loved, absolutely loved the commentary on the nature of religion and those who create it which pervades the story lines surrounding Vatha Urusander, Syntara and the Liosan and equally and opposing of Mother Dark, Lanrear and those in the temple in Kharkanas. It's there throughout, but the final dialogue between Lanrear and Mother Dark really brings it home in a blaze of glory. Mother Dark refuses to give Lanrear a book of rules, and when she does go on to hold up basic decency, compassion and the avoidance of harming others as virtues, in the face of Lanrear proclaiming them finally having purpose MD chillingly responds "You didn't need me for those things." The concept of the gift of love being misunderstood and twisted plays out beautifully and provokes a good bit of thought.

The various comments SE has made about the language being a huge factor in the Kharkanas books is really evident throughout. Without wishing to rabidly fangirl (who am I kidding?) the man is just ludicrously talented with words.

All in all, it's brilliant. I genuinely can't wait to see how this all plays out and finishes in Walk in Shadow.

Anyway, some favourites:

FAVOURITE NEW CHARACTER: Sort of cheating, we meet Renarr in Forge, but she's fleshed out in a point of view here and I love it.

BEST APPEARANCE OF A CHARACTER FROM TBTOF: Telorast and Curdle. Good to know they've always been asshats. Brilliant, entertaining asshats.

FAVOURITE SCENE: Probably the ones involving those two.

FUNNIEST NOD BACK: No, I don't know Tehol the Only.

SCARIEST LINE: "Vatha Urusander, there will be justice" - "there will be justice" comes up several times, but when you read the book you'll know exactly which one I mean. Christ, and I thought the last scenes of Forge were chilling.

BIGGEST "I WANT TO KNOW MORE": More on the arrival of the "Grey Shore" of Shadow, and the hint that the ancient Tiste held the blood of Tiam within them. It suggests that possibly Anomander et al don't have to "acquire" the draconic blood, they maybe just have to "awaken" it.

SADDEST MOMENT: The description of Draconus through Kellaras' eyes when Silchas tells him he has to leave.

CANDIDATE FOR "DEAR SWEET MOTHER DARK WHY AREN'T YOU DEAD YET?": Hunn Raal.

I AGREE WITH SO MUCH YOU SAID. i think FoD was a much more straightforward book kinda set the stage in laymans terms, i read FoL really quickly cause revising for exams at the same time so it definitely requires a re read as parts of it flew straight over my head but anyway

Spoiler

DAYUM those Thel akai how nonchalantly they kill a dragon like its almost nothing, idk they were entertaining but it seemed like theirs was a bitter humour at times, much like the jaghut who it has to be said even at the beginning of the time lie still demand respect from all the races damn, even dragons don't want to test their temper. i really wanna know who the azathanai that hid among them was it said that the jaghut discovered the azathanai around the time goths dissolved their civilisation and an asthenia was at hoods camp in the form of a jaghut woman, but i didnt get the feeling that she was the one. SO MANY AZATHANAI POP UP DEAR LORD HOW MANY. even a random one in the hills that the thel akai i really like the fact that we see out future elder gods question their own beginnings , those azath builders have intrigued me since nimander got grabbed by one. also the sereghal were they theolmen bordering on ascendants, well immortals. and do jaghut live forever i mean gethol was trapped for 500 years and gothos and hood were still up and kicking. why was arathan so desperate to go with hood, when they realised hood was opening the gate of death and time stopped was one of the most badass moments in the book. also is gothos using omtose phellack to keep the death gate at bay or the magic of his folly or whatever they said

i loved the hust legion, i think that it strongly paves the way for the flash back we see in the final book where rake sends the hust into starvald demelain and they go silently. maybe thats because of the imass (dog runners) gift. no one gave them a shout but they held. but it was said they only defended themselves they pushed on, i wonder how that plays out. also was the hust henarald with wreneck at the end?. it breaks my heart reading about the hust legion knowing how they meet their end. but i fell in love with prazek and dathenar we don seem much at all in TMBotF. but here they seem like fucking badasses i love their characters a brilliant mix of humour but undercurrents of something darker. their entrance into the hust camp i read that bit with a huge grin on my face. toras redone i don't know what to make of her, i don't really despise her nor do i like her, she seems broken by grief but at the same time she doesn't.

this book made me even more of an anomander fanboy, he had to leave andarist for kharkanas, but we see a more vulnerable rake than we normally do espeically in the face of sorcery, its really interesting actually sorcery is a new thing in this time and its very raw, very powerful but not very defined, in the malazan time its the complete opposite magic is dead set. we see the beginning of mage cadres here though. i kinda got the vibe of this what it must of been like when guns were intrroduced to war a new form of mass killing. i enjoyed the dialogue bet2ween anomander and caladan it was very back and forth, caladan seemed to be testing rake with some very difficult choices. like when he offered to destroy urusanders forces even knowing it would result in the destruction of kharkanas due to triss arriving. he is one slippery bastard. silchas is a bastard, its like erikson is saying "here this is why you shouldn't trust him" with his actions in the draconus house blades issue trapping a man like that after making him do what he had to do. dracaenas had easily the most sorrowful moment in the book, and silchas blatant disrespect during said moment when he had to leave MD just made me dislike him even more GOOD ON KELLARAS FOR STICKING UP FOR DRACONUS. AND RAKE AND DRACONUS ARE BROS that shocked me how respectful of each other, we see dracaenas forging dragnipur already in the realm of elemental night so i eagerly awaiT to see how it ends up that rake kills him. also WTF DID HIS FINNEST DO TO SAND SOMEONE PLS EXPLAIN.

i dislike urusander with a passion, he was like a man who has given up. however his threat of "there will be justice" was chilling it shows the origins of the corruption of the lisosan. renarr. she needs no words. my lord.
Huun taal is a dick like why does he even exist anymore. sharenas killing the captains made me happy.
morale of the story
olar ethil has been a bitch since day one.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

The Hust Legion, on 02 May 2016 - 01:45 AM, said:

Spoiler

also WTF DID HIS FINNEST DO TO SAND SOMEONE PLS EXPLAIN.

Spoiler

I don't think the Finnest as it originally was would have done that - my reading was that it had been twisted by Envy and Spite and their playing with their new sorcery. Remember they are full-blooded Azathanai themselves so they're pretty powerful. Maybe the power passing into Korlat was the Finnest's means of escape - I very much doubt it could have left that warded chamber, and despite Sand's assurance that "A god chose me" I suspect it was as much wrong place, wrong time and she happens to be capable of child birth. Grim as all hell, though.

The Hust Legion, on 02 May 2016 - 01:45 AM, said:

Spoiler

silchas is a bastard, its like erikson is saying "here this is why you shouldn't trust him" with his actions in the draconus house blades issue trapping a man like that after making him do what he had to do. dracaenas had easily the most sorrowful moment in the book, and silchas blatant disrespect during said moment when he had to leave MD just made me dislike him even more GOOD ON KELLARAS FOR STICKING UP FOR DRACONUS

Spoiler

I enjoyed that new take on Silchas too. Like you, I really will need a re-read to get everything!

[The Hust Legion]

Spoiler

Was the cave that triss and threadbare in (threadbare such a Malayan marine name) full of eresAl bones
And the original divers were the eresal WTF"
and thanks I got that it was corrupted but I the childbirth thing was so grim I didn't realise exactly what was happening haha

[BionicBarry]

Spoiler

No mention about Kagamandra Tulas? I loved his storyline; Silchas and Scara tying him up with the Jhelarkan hostages was hilarious. His keep is now nicknamed "Howls". Anyone catch the hint about the Hounds of Shadow to come (possibly?) Pg 429 ...Braphen said "This one is named Gear" Pg 570 "The blind one still survives, and that's surprising; Kagamandra said musingly..."

Makes me think of Tulas Shorns' familiarity with the hounds in MBoTF. Cant wait to see the development of the hounds, although 25 pups weened to 7 adults is a morose statistic.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

BionicBarry, on 02 May 2016 - 04:45 PM, said:

Spoiler

No mention about Kagamandra Tulas? I loved his storyline; Silchas and Scara tying him up with the Jhelarkan hostages was hilarious. His keep is now nicknamed "Howls". Anyone catch the hint about the Hounds of Shadow to come (possibly?) Pg 429 ...Braphen said "This one is named Gear" Pg 570 "The blind one still survives, and that's surprising; Kagamandra said musingly..."

Makes me think of Tulas Shorns' familiarity with the hounds in MBoTF. Cant wait to see the development of the hounds, although 25 pups weened to 7 adults is a morose statistic.

My bad, I'd just put the book down when I wrote the first post, probably plenty I forgot - I loved the conversation you mention though!

[Adaephon Ben Delat]

Telorast and Curdle continue to be awesome here (reminding me of pain and panic in the Hercules animation). I was surprised they were female dragons though. I'd always had this mental picture of two mischievous guys. Darthenar and Prazek (sp?) remind me of Gesler and Stormy with the way they could turn a tense situation (the issuing out of the hust weapons) with their carefree attitudes making others relax in the process

[ChunkyBenjamin]

Just finished it last night. I have to admit it was a tough one to work through. A little too verbose, with not very many gratification moments in the plot. I think it is a good book though. Forge of darkness was just soo "refreshing", my expectations were a little too high.

[Adulation]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 01 May 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

CANDIDATE FOR "DEAR SWEET MOTHER DARK WHY AREN'T YOU DEAD YET?": Hunn Raal.

I find it amusing how well SE developed Hunn Raal. It is my firm belief that Hunn Raal is a good antagonist. He's very well acquainted with magical power and he's also hiding his true intentions which makes him all the more dangerous. He reminds me of Leoman of the Flails, Hunn uses alcohol, Leoman used durhang (if I remember corectly) to conceal their true purpose and display a friendly nature. He's not merely a way to progress the story, he's the behind-the-curtain Father Light in my opinion. Syntara is nothing compared to him.
Now don't get me wrong, of course I loathe him as well but I don't see him dying to someone like Anomander or Silchas. He'll continue to be a nuissance and maybe SE will just leave his life a mystery (just like the Errant in mbotf). I just don't see him falling easily, especially now that Vatha is dead. Also about that, is Vatha going to Ascend or something like that? I find an unlikely coincidence that MD's words were "There will be justice" just like Renarr's.

[Siergiej]

I think he will die or be disposed of eternally in some other manner. He's not around anymore in Malazan. True, there's plenty of time to die in the meantime, but this is a story and Hunn Raal's fate is a crucial element of the plot for the whole trilogy. I doubt Erikson will just leave it unanswered. And because of chronology, the answer probably isn't going to be fun for Huun Raal Also, the schemers and villains rarely get their way in Shakespeare's work, and SE makes a very concious effort to make the trilogy Shakespearean.

[KruppeFanBoy]

I registered for this site simply to compliment you on your post, TRB. Really well written. I’m too busy right at this moment to add much of substance, but I think that it is helpful to raise a toast to those, like you, who provide thoughtful content to other fans of SE’s work. Without such content, I wouldn’t enjoy Malazan books anywhere near as much as I do. I have read all of Proust and plan to read it in French before I die, I am reading ULYSSES, I laugh at those who can’t keep the Russian names in WAR AND PEACE straight — and yet SE’s work sometimes confounds and confuses me (even as it hugely entertains). So... thanks again, TRB!

This post has been edited by KruppeFanBoy: 27 December 2019 - 12:46 AM

[KruppeFanBoy]

My last comment was NOT a boast. It was more in the spirit of “Ya think Marcel Proust and James Joyce created great but challenging literature...?” (And I am NOT making claims about SE vs. such titans, other than the demands he places upon his readers. I think that he himself would be horrified at ANY such comparisons.)

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

KruppeFanBoy, on 27 December 2019 - 12:38 AM, said:

I registered for this site simply to compliment you on your post, TRB. Really well written. I'm too busy right at this moment to add much of substance, but I think that it is helpful to raise a toast to those, like you, who provide thoughtful content to other fans of SE's work. Without such content, I wouldn't enjoy Malazan books anywhere near as much as I do. I have read all of Proust and plan to read it in French before I die, I am reading ULYSSES, I laugh at those who can't keep the Russian names in WAR AND PEACE straight — and yet SE's work sometimes confounds and confuses me (even as it hugely entertains). So... thanks again, TRB!

Only just seen this - thank you!