[Khellendros]

Sorry for not being around yesterday. But I should be around most of the day today. I'll start with what I intended at the weekend, looking at Blend more closely. Straight after coffee and breakfast, that is.

[Khellendros]

Lady Bliss, on 03 May 2016 - 05:42 AM, said:

Bubba, on 03 May 2016 - 01:29 AM, said:

So we need to find one more killer to end the scum team., Tapper has outed him self as the symp for team scum. And it looks like there is a SK on the loose. I'm going to add my vote to the Blend train to try and make up for missing the lynch yesterday.
vote Blend

I must have missed tapper Outing himself... Care to share?

I think he probably means because of Tapper's case on Tatts and co, what with Tatts turning out to be RI. It is worth considering I reckon.

[Khellendros]

Two kills again with a scum already dead really bothers me. I think Tapper was right about one thing at least - three killers. I have time today so I'm going to try and look at multiple people.

[Macros]

I'll be floating about all day on the phone. Depending on how work goes should get something a bit more meaningful posted.hoping for a chance to reread.
Waiting ti hear from.blend

[Dhenrabi]

vote lynch Blend


Pressure at least until he shows up

[Andorion]

Lady Bliss, on 03 May 2016 - 05:41 AM, said:

Andorion, on 03 May 2016 - 12:55 AM, said:

Blend?

I was thinking of Khell, but ok.

Vote Blend

Drive by much?

Not really a driveby. I was among the first to point out Blends low posting non obstrusive gameplay.

Thing is over the last couple of days we have essentially run around in circles and failed to get a lynch while the kills mount up. We need to lynch some people and a hiding low poster makes a better target for me than an obvious high poster like Khell

[Tapper]

A train on Blend is imho a removal of a player without many connections with others. I'd still like a GH lynch, myself, failing that, Andorion, maybe - mostly because he seems eager but also a bit (too) wide-eyed.

@Bliss: twice now you've objected at being PI'ed, with the P being only Probable or Potential - I'd say there's VPI and CI above that, and I doubt anyone is willing to go to either of those steps. Seems you're almost afraid of not being found scummy - why?

[Andorion]

Tapper, on 03 May 2016 - 10:24 AM, said:

A train on Blend is imho a removal of a player without many connections with others. I'd still like a GH lynch, myself, failing that, Andorion, maybe - mostly because he seems eager but also a bit (too) wide-eyed.

@Bliss: twice now you've objected at being PI'ed, with the P being only Probable or Potential - I'd say there's VPI and CI above that, and I doubt anyone is willing to go to either of those steps. Seems you're almost afraid of not being found scummy - why?

My main objection to the GH train is his very explicit early call out of Kitsu as I have trouble believing in that level of cynical gameplay. But if we do lynch Blend and he turns out RI I will follow you straight onto the GH train

[Gust Hubb]

My God this thread is crashing fast. How does the logic of lynching blend work out? And it is a fast train.

So first quick observation : I am being mocked with all who voted me dying, except Tapper oddly enough. Makes me think of a setup against me or Tapper or both.

I also see the resistance to a Khell Lynch as a good sign. Means I am on the right track.

Still don't have time, and yesterday was complete shit. I will try to get back in the in-between.

vote khells

[Khellendros]

Alright, so here's Blend. He was most vocal on day 1, but most substantive on day 2, and mostly invisible day 3.

He starts off with a fair few posts directed at new players like Coltaine and Dhenrabi, and he likes Macros' accusation of Tattersail while also saying he wants to watch Messremb. There is also the standard 'kill Khell' message.

There is also some subtle pushing away from looking at Andorion, as below.

Blend, on 26 April 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 26 April 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:

I initially was leaning Andorian. We have had good luck in the past going after the first person to bring up mechanics. If Tatts wasn't acting so weird I would lean more that way.

I can attest to that - I've been rightfully lynched in early days for just that. I've also been wrongfully lynched for the same reason... so I've just learned not to talk about game mechanics much. I do it all the time anyway, I just know I shouldn't.

And also in this post below:

Blend, on 26 April 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

I'd really love to understand how this:

Tattersail_, on 26 April 2016 - 03:47 PM, said:

Quote

I see your points regarding the assumptions. Like I said earlier, there is that elephant, the one over there, but we mustn't talk about it until we get more information. Like 2 deaths, or a cult CF like Mess mentioned. Which is fair enough.

I am not disagreeing with him, in fact I nipped it in the bud and looked at Ando's meta, his increased posting time and activity, which I got spot on (thank you very much)

is 'nipping it in the bud.' You say "I see your points regarding the assumptions" and then pretty much ignore them in order to bring up more possibilities of bad things "i.e. 2 deaths, or a cult"

I think you're only trying to shift people's suspicions back at Andorion. And it bothers me that you're trying so hard.

Blend, on 26 April 2016 - 05:05 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 26 April 2016 - 02:09 AM, said:

ADL
Andorion
Blend
Bliss
Bubba
Coltain93
Dhenrabi
Gusty
HO
Itwas Nom
Khell
Kitsu
Macros
Mess
Sergiej
Tapper
Tatts

Alright, just so I'm not laser focusing on only Tatts, who all hasn't posted yet?

I don't remember seeing much from ADL, nor from Kitsu, but they both do have a few posts... If I'm not remembering much, chances are their input wasn't very spectacular.

Aside from that, seems everyone's had a few things to say, so that's good! Haven't had this active a Day 1 in a M&P in a while, really! Loving it so far!

This is Blend's first mention of Kitsu, highlighting that he feels they haven't had much of content to say. This whole post is fairly ironic considering the same accusation could be laid at Blend more than probably anyone at this point - most of his posts up to this point had been about people being naked, welcomes, and jokes.

Blend, on 26 April 2016 - 05:19 PM, said:

Just Plain Kitsu, on 26 April 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

I actually threw in a vote earlier this morning, but I've been in reading the wall of text. I'm currently of the conclusion that my earlier vote for Ando may have been a gut reaction. I want to read over the wall again, but I'll be in here pretty much all day today.

For now:

Remove Vote

Yeah, I noticed when *I* did your vote count. Glad to see you participating! Welcome to Malazan Mafia!


EDIT: changed you to *I*

And this is a more direct interaction with Kitsu, welcoming him in similar fashion to Coltaine and Dhenrabi before this. Not sure why Blend decided to put stars around "I" - any opinions from others on that one?

Blend, on 26 April 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:

Khellendros, on 26 April 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:

Finally done and ready to engage for realsies! Let me read up the impressive number of pages and then state some super important and relevant things which surely no one has already mentioned...ish.

vote Khell

Seems pretty obvious to me, he's already setting us up to expect him to just rehash what everyone else is saying.

Okay, we're a good long way into day 1 at this point, and Blend places his first vote, and it's an easy joke vote on me.

Blend, on 26 April 2016 - 11:37 PM, said:

Siergiej, on 26 April 2016 - 09:48 PM, said:

• Andorion starts speculating about mechanics
• Tatts joins the speculation
• In the next post Macros throws accusation at Andorion because of that speculation
• Khell joins and points fingers at Andorion
• Tattersail votes Andorion
• Nom votes Andorion
• Dhenrabi votes Tatts
• Macros votes Tatts
• HiddenOne comes back to Macros' post that started the whole debate and votes Andorion
• JPK votes Andorion
• Gust votes Tatts
• Dhenrabi removes vote against Tatts
• Tatts removes vote against Andorion and votes Blend
• JPK removes vote against Andorion

Dare I say it non-newbies? Dare I?

Blend, on 26 April 2016 - 11:43 PM, said:

Just Plain Kitsu, on 26 April 2016 - 11:39 PM, said:

So, my attention keeps jumping back into this timeline that Siergiej helpfully put together. The bit that's sticking out to me the strongest are numbers 3&8. Macros was the first one to point a finger at Ando and started that train rolling. A bit of time goes by, and then he jumps onto the newly started Tatts train. A great shot at sowing chaos and creating factions.

Vote Macros

Another great find by a newbie! Gotta love the infusion of fresh blood!

Commends Kitsu's work, and presumably likes the suspicion of Macros based on his switching from Ando to Tatts, despite earlier supporting Macros' suspicion of Tatts.

[Khellendros]

Blend, on 27 April 2016 - 03:16 AM, said:

Oh, and cause it wasn't a serious vote anyway...

remove vote

Blend, on 27 April 2016 - 03:20 AM, said:

Hmmm... Not much has happened since last I was around.

Not too impressed with ADL's jumping on the Andowagon....

Right now, I think I'd vote for Nom. Lady B has been pressuring him today, and I'm not sure I like how he's reacting to it. Plus there was the fact that he piled on to the Andowagon.

So...

vote ItwasNom

Removes his vote from me and swtiches to Nom with that train gathering steam. Gives fairly broad and vague reasoning for the vote 'not sure I like how he's reacting to it' with no explanation of what the 'how' constitutes or what's not liked about it. Also names the Andowagon as a reason, which pretty much everyone else did too.

Blend, on 27 April 2016 - 08:22 PM, said:

Curse you new players! I don't remember which one of you it was, or if it was more than one of you even, but one of the new players at least was making some very good arguments yesterday - if that player was Sergiej, that could very well be the reason he was killed.

One thing, though - everyone is assuming a Vig - I was about to say it could be a Faceless Man, but that's not possible without playing in game alts...

So other things it COULD be is a Serial Killer, though usually a SK is announced in the OP.

Guess it's not a stretch that there's a vig in game. If that's the case, I'd say that Messremb was likely the vig's target. I know that if I had gotten the vig role, I probably couldn't have resisted from killing off Mess.

I thought that this post above was interesting. Is Blend the first person to bring up the possibility of an SK after we get the two kills?

Blend, on 27 April 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

Siergiej, on 26 April 2016 - 06:54 PM, said:

I'm also not convinced by the Andorion mentioned mechanics therefore scum thinking, so I'm leaning towards suspecting one of the people who jumped on the lynching Andorion bandwagon, as an easy way to quickly kill off a townie. These people are:
Nom, HiddenOne, Kitsu

This, for example, was a very astute note - obviously ItWasn'tNom, but one of our killers could be HO or Kitsu panicking at being named, and deciding we might as well off the person who noticed it.

Of course, I'm more inclined to think that the kills had nothing to do with yesterday's cases... Just kills of opportunity.

Likewise this post. Names HO and Kitsu as possibly suspicious after Siergiej's death. Could he have taken a shot at Kitsu after this?

Blend, on 29 April 2016 - 03:23 PM, said:

Hey folks, sorry for missing out on end of day. I'm reading up now - I saw in passing that Kitsu was NK'd and was scum? Seems odd! Hopefully a read up will provide a bit more info on that!

This post has already been brought up by Macros. It does read quite awkwardly, as if he's feigning surprise.

Blend, on 29 April 2016 - 08:19 PM, said:

Alright, so I've finally managed to catch up on reading - sorry folks, been a busy couple days at work...

Right now, I'm very on the fence about Tatts - he's flinging shit in a very Tatts-like fashion, but I feel like he only really started doing that after Day 1, and that's what I'm most suspicious of.

Regards Khell - I dunno, I don't really think there's too much there. I mean, aside from the fact that he's still alive. I'd be willing to vote Khell for that reason alone, but I certainly wish I had more than that.

Tapper and Lady B are on my PI list.

I've got very little read on ADL.

I could go either way on Bubba, Coltaine and Dhenrabi right now - they're all participating, the latter two especially have been putting up very good cases, and really analyzing everything on thread, so I guess I lean more towards the inno side of things for them.

Uhm...

Andorion has been pretty active, but I've got very little read on him - I think I may have to take some time to really see what he's had to say...

Gust has been less active, and I've not got much of a read on him either.

Macros is being his normal ornery self, plus he hasn't done or said anything that has struck me as particularly scummy.

HO is coasting a la HO-style. I wouldn't mind lynching him, but I think there are better targets out there...

So, in short, my vote, at the moment, goes to Khell, Tatts, or HO, with a willingness to go Gust or Andorion if I see a good case there.

Finally, we get a list of Blend's thoughts on the remaining players, with a conclusion that he would go for one of five different players. That's a fairly broad list. 'If I see a good case' makes me roll my eyes a bit - why not make your own good case, Blend? Why is he waiting for others.



Alright, so from this, it's hard to get much, certainly anything concrete. I think the Ando 'defending' at the beginning is probably a red herring, but I've included it just in case others see more in it. If I had to make conclusions, I would say that Blend is not connected to Kitsu - if Kitsu had someone connected to them. But there is the possibility of Blend being a solo killer, due to the gentle nudging, the buddy buddying with lots of other players - particularly new ones (and we've also seen Siergiej, Kitsu, and Coltaine die in the meantime), the bringing up of an SK when everyone else is talking Vig, and the non-surprised sounding surprise at Kitsu's death.

As I said, I'm going to look at a few others before drawing more conclusions.

[Khellendros]

Gust Hubb, on 03 May 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

My God this thread is crashing fast. How does the logic of lynching blend work out? And it is a fast train.

So first quick observation : I am being mocked with all who voted me dying, except Tapper oddly enough. Makes me think of a setup against me or Tapper or both.

I also see the resistance to a Khell Lynch as a good sign. Means I am on the right track.

Still don't have time, and yesterday was complete shit. I will try to get back in the in-between.

vote khells

Resistance to a Khell lynch could also be a sign of the fact that you have made no case on me other than to say 'Khell is probably scum.' At least Tatts came out with something - something awfully bad and illogical, but at least he put in the effort.

There's also been resistance to calls to vote for you - does that mean those people are on the right track?

[Tapper]

Khellendros, on 03 May 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 03 May 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

My God this thread is crashing fast. How does the logic of lynching blend work out? And it is a fast train.

So first quick observation : I am being mocked with all who voted me dying, except Tapper oddly enough. Makes me think of a setup against me or Tapper or both.

I also see the resistance to a Khell Lynch as a good sign. Means I am on the right track.

Still don't have time, and yesterday was complete shit. I will try to get back in the in-between.

vote khells

Resistance to a Khell lynch could also be a sign of the fact that you have made no case on me other than to say 'Khell is probably scum.' At least Tatts came out with something - something awfully bad and illogical, but at least he put in the effort.

There's also been resistance to calls to vote for you - does that mean those people are on the right track?

Yeah. It didn't have a place in my case on JPK/Tatts/GH (also because I saw a neat solution to the 2 kills, 1 kill phenomenon in grouping them together), but GH has been pretty passive - his call of a vote for you is essentially based on the 'if Khell is alive on day 3' thing.

I can understand people don't have the time for cases, but at the least then pick someone else's effort that's actually worth it.

[Gust Hubb]

Tapper, on 03 May 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

Khellendros, on 03 May 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 03 May 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

My God this thread is crashing fast. How does the logic of lynching blend work out? And it is a fast train.

So first quick observation : I am being mocked with all who voted me dying, except Tapper oddly enough. Makes me think of a setup against me or Tapper or both.

I also see the resistance to a Khell Lynch as a good sign. Means I am on the right track.

Still don't have time, and yesterday was complete shit. I will try to get back in the in-between.

vote khells

Resistance to a Khell lynch could also be a sign of the fact that you have made no case on me other than to say 'Khell is probably scum.' At least Tatts came out with something - something awfully bad and illogical, but at least he put in the effort.

There's also been resistance to calls to vote for you - does that mean those people are on the right track?

Yeah. It didn't have a place in my case on JPK/Tatts/GH (also because I saw a neat solution to the 2 kills, 1 kill phenomenon in grouping them together), but GH has been pretty passive - his call of a vote for you is essentially based on the 'if Khell is alive on day 3' thing.

I can understand people don't have the time for cases, but at the least then pick someone else's effort that's actually worth it.

Blatant mid attribution. It has been Khell game play, the theory mess was a symp and the resistance to being lynched.

Khell is playing a different game.

[Gust Hubb]

Lemme see if I can scare up some time to quote things, but if Tapper is on Khells team, we are fucked

[Gust Hubb]

Messremb, on 26 April 2016 - 02:19 AM, said:

Woo game thread.Vote KhellendrosBecause Macros and Venge have a point...

Messremb, on 26 April 2016 - 02:26 AM, said:

A Demon Llama!, on 26 April 2016 - 02:20 AM, said:

Who's point do they have?

Khells?

Point guard, symp, etc. This is the stuff on which I agreed with Tatts assessment of symping from mess.

Messremb, on 26 April 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

Khellendros, on 26 April 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

Messremb, on 26 April 2016 - 02:19 AM, said:

Woo game thread.Vote KhellendrosBecause Macros and Venge have a point...

Remind me what that point is. Place joke votes on me at beginning of game for good luck?

Many might consider lynching you to be good luck :pNote for JPK, Siergiej and Dhenrabi, genuine truth - if Khell is alive on Day 3 then he is scumAnother note: in un-alted mafia some old grudges occasionally get settledAlso, Day 1 votes can be extremely random. Example:Remove Vote

Just Plain Kitsu, on 26 April 2016 - 04:35 AM, said:

You know, if the voting system was actually for lynching - with the last candidate standing getting the position - I'll bet we'd have much larger voter turnout here. Besides that's the only way I can imagine voting Trump.

You'd consider voting Trump for anything? Clearly scummyVote JPKLynches have run off of far less than that.SoRemove VoteAre we going to be serious today or whimsical?

Khellendros, on 26 April 2016 - 07:55 AM, said:

2) You want us to speculate on town roles. That's interesting.

Why do you think it is a Town role? It could be scum, it could be independent.

Andorion, on 26 April 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

Soo lets see, Day 1:1. Standard nonsential conversation: Check2. Joke voting: Check3. Suspicion of player speculating on game roles: Check4. Accusation of signalling and symping: Waiting on this one.5. Lynch Bubba: Inevitable

OMGUS?

One may ask why then was mess's ref to kits so much more blatant. I would hazard that Khell would pick up (or since kit is dead, not pick up) on more subtle signals and that a new would need something stronger.

Messremb, on 26 April 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

Yes, no assumptions on Cult till we see a Cult CF!

Mess brings up the fm and then later the Serial killer (interestingly enough in ref to Andorian....) see next quote

Messremb, on 26 April 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

Andorion, on 26 April 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

Messremb, on 26 April 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

Yes, no assumptions on Cult till we see a Cult CF!

Eh who said anything about a Cult? I must have missed something

You got the Serial Killer memo though?

Messremb, on 26 April 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

Dhenrabi, on 26 April 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

What is symp and FM?

To quote from the 101,Symping 1. Symping someone: defending someone and/or supporting someones arguments in a suspicious way. 2. Symping (general): a playstyle often associated with the symp role (scum): causing chaos on thread through rapid vote changing, multiple accusations and trying to make a lot of people lynchable to make sure town unity is non-existent.The Symp The most common scum support role. The symp is an RI to all outward appearances, even on Coroner Finder. However, the Symp knows at the least one of the main scum players, and often more than one. This allows them to deflect attention from that player, as well as allowing them to masquerade as a Finder (since they know the alignment of most if not all other players in the game).So essentially the symp is scum but no kill, knows one or more killers, counts towards scum majority but when dead CFs as Town. Because they CF as town they can deflect lynches/throw themselves under the bus/cause mayhem and it cannot be proved for fact that they were scum alignedThe FM (Faceless Man) is a different kettle of fish;Faceless Man (aka FM)1. a role that allows alt jumping. In essence, the Faceless Man targets another alt. At the end of a designated period of time (sometimes the end of the phase, sometimes after a full day and night cycle), the players switch game alts. After that, the player who now plays from the FM's former alt is removed from the game. Sometimes, the password of the game alt is changed to avoid fuck-ups.2. term used on the GRRM forums for the killer role.The Faceless Man is a role that is almost exclusively used as a solo faction, and tends to dominate games.So the FM picks another players game alt and takes complete and permanent control of it; the former player dies and is identified as having been the original alt of the FM. The FM will need to adapt their posting style to match the original players. So for instance in this game were Tatts a FM he'd target me, jump into me in Night and the Night resolution would report that "Tattersail has died, he was Messremb and Town" Tatts would now post from the Messremb account and pretend to be me. Now when you consider we generally play with alts, swap Tattersail for Demelain and it is only apparent if you've identified who is in the alt or if you notice changes in posting style.As I say, no FM in this game.

You are what you talk about, case and point.

Messremb, on 26 April 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

Tattersail_, on 26 April 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

How is this for his posting times?

I gave up on my spreadsheet about 25 games ago, you'll have to use the search function :pPersonally, I prefer higher contributions from everyone and am happy to see it. Ando clearly feels that he is getting a good enough feel for how games are structured to speculate on this one in thread. I like it.

Or he doesn't need a spreadsheet when he knows who the big players are

[Khellendros]

Oh fuck me, not this again.

[Andorion]

Quote

You are what you talk about, case and point.

First time I have ever seen this argument.

[Gust Hubb]

Khellendros, on 26 April 2016 - 10:01 PM, said:

Dhenrabi, on 26 April 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

Messremb, on 26 April 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

Dhenrabi, on 26 April 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

Can someone point me towards the anonymous option because I can't find it

Log out, click the log in at top right and in the drop down there is username, password and two tick boxes - Remember me and "Sign in anonymously; Don't add me to the active users list". Tick Anonymous, sign in

Thanks, got it.

Messremb, on 26 April 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

Dhenrabi, on 26 April 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

Messremb, on 26 April 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

Dhenrabi, on 26 April 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

Can someone point me towards the anonymous option because I can't find it

Log out, click the log in at top right and in the drop down there is username, password and two tick boxes - Remember me and "Sign in anonymously; Don't add me to the active users list". Tick Anonymous, sign in

Thanks, got it.

Macros, as you can see, is sufficiently confident in his ability to control thread that he doesn't care who sees that he is browsing.

My he has been a helpful bear today hasn't he? Giving helpful summaries on everyone (wasn't there also one about lynching me by day 3?). It's almost like, "that Gerry, he's a good guy, always been polite to everyone. Only, rumour has it he's in deep debt to the mob, and they might force him to do something he might not want to do to clean the slate, if you know what I mean. I mean, it's just a rumour and all, but keep watch for that just in case."

Just noting that

Acknowledgement that mess is the symp. Message received.

[Gust Hubb]

Khellendros, on 26 April 2016 - 10:54 PM, said:

Blend, on 26 April 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:

Khellendros, on 26 April 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:

Finally done and ready to engage for realsies! Let me read up the impressive number of pages and then state some super important and relevant things which surely no one has already mentioned...ish.

vote Khell

Seems pretty obvious to me, he's already setting us up to expect him to just rehash what everyone else is saying.

Au contraire!


Okay, so I pointed out the Andorion listing of town roles and said "EEEENTERESTING!" for a deliberate purpose. Not because I actually thought there was something in it - it's a silly thing to do and I think Andorion's probably played enough to be careful enough not to post something like that as scum - thoug I reserve the right to be wrong!

But rather I did it to see if anyone would jump on. And there go Tatts, Nom, JPK, and...someone else...HO! As I said, I don't thing it makes Ando particulalry scummy seeming in my view, so I was interested by these reactions, and the reversals by some when it seemed the Ando votes might not gain as much traction as it looked like they could.

Of those, I don't particularly agree that Tatts is playing quite differently to normal as some have mentioned. Yes, he's prone to switch wildly, and has he not just done that by fairly inexplicably switching from Ando to Blend? So far that doesn't make him scum, that just makes him Tatts

On the other hand, HO has been more active than normal (yes, really) and that piques my interest. JPK reads like he's coasting, though also may be a newbie testing the waters - have they played before. Nom jumping on straight after Tatts was very eyebrow raising to me, as if trying to show they're active and contributing participants, almost over eager. Also notable as is the recent backing down and reversing from that position ('oh gee, I may have made a mistake').

I'm going to go there for now.

Vote Itwas Nom

No vote for ando (thanks mess, message received) redirection to nom and possibly acknowledgement of kitsu (now that we have another killer, kitsu's death need not be at Khells hand) with a dismissal of kitsu's rapid vote