[Hetan]

I have always related the Empty Hold to the Forkrul Assail, probably due to the Errant's connection to it (the Hold) and their (the FA) relationship to him.

'The language on the door belongs to an extinct people known as Forkrul Assail, who are collectively personified in our Fulcra by the personage we call the Errant.' - Bugg

"The Master of the Holds in my time... he became the god of change. He walked the path of neutrality, yet flavoured it with a pleasaure taken in impermanence. The Errant's enemy was ennui, stagnation. This is why the Forkrul Assail sought to annihilate him."

It's been a long time since I read it though.

[worry]

The Errant "stands unseen behind the Empty Throne" so there's something to that. Has it always been empty? The FA god wasn't always scattered and insane. And there's also Sechul Lath and Kilmandaros gone hiding in an Azath, leaving the Errant to do what he likes. He prefers it empty, it seems, but it's possible that wasn't always the case.

[Kanese S's]

I wonder where Sechul and Killy figure in, given that they both look like Forkrul Assail... or rather, the Forkrul Assail look like them.

[FlynntMillit]

Felisin Fatter, on 05 April 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

So, I don't see any theories on this anywhere (please point me to them if there are any). Or is it super obvious to everyone and am I just the slow one?

What actually is the Empty Hold? Where did it come from? Why is it empty?


This is the list of Tiles associated with it, copied from the Wiki:

• Empty Throne, the throne that knew no King
• Wanderer Knight
• Mistress, who waited still, alone in her bed of dreams
• Watcher, who witnessed all
• Walker, who patrolled borders not even he could see
• Saviour - Brys Beddict, whose outstretched hand was never grasped
• Betrayer - The Errant, whose loving embrace destroyed all it touched

Note: I am not entirely sure about Saviour and Betrayer. Those seem more like temporary roles than like actual postions in the Hold (The Errant is also one of the Fulcra). But that's debatable,

We also know about the Empty Hold:

• It can be used as a weapon, and that looks like white lightning, bright light and fire. It burns everything it touches to ashes. It can also be used for more subtle purposes, but I don't think we see much of that as pretty much all the sorcerers get slaughtered real fast.
• It only exists in the 'preserved area', in and around Lether. It is an ancient Hold.
• It is not the Hold of Ice, Beast, Azath, Dragon or Fulcra (Fulcra appears to be ancient presences - Eres, Kilmandaros, Knuckles - and shapeshifters, likely a later addition due to the First Empire Ritual).
• It is also not the Hold of Death, as that one is explicitly absent. (Something to do with the War on Death?)

I can only draw one conclusion from all this: the Empty Hold is the Hold of Fire, also known as Tellan. That's the one missing from the list. That was definitely still a hold when Gothos did his ritual. It became Empty soon after, when the Imass did their ritual. Because of Gothos' ritual a fossilized version of Tellan remained in that area. Tellan never had a king. No one can sit its throne now - or this could even refer to Shadowthrone (not) taking that throne. The lonely dreaming mistress is Burn - who is very much MIA among the Tiles. And we know she dates from before Gothos' ritual. Wanderer, Watcher and Walker could be characters from FoD too, hard to say, but plenty that could fit the role. (Edgewalker is a strong candidate for Walker, as he is now in Shadow wich likely bordered Tellan before the Tellan Ritual. Also, his name. Arathan I can see become the Wanderer Knight. Or it could be Kilava, maybe even Tool. Or many, many others. Same for Watcher; lots of witnessing in these books... Saviour/betrayer could in other contexts be Silverfox & Itkovian.)

This also might explain what happened to those Imass in the Refugium. They arrived on Lether and found Tellan instead of T'lan, and that allowed them to become sort of alive again and lost in memories. It is actually stated that in the Refugium 'The ritual of Tellann never happened'.

My vote goes for being the "time" hold:

• Empty Throne, the throne that knew no King - Who can be said to control time?
• Wanderer Knight
• Mistress, who waited still, alone in her bed of dreams - Burn seems logical, but even the earth changes with time. Myhbe imo fills this perfecly. Silverfox's father was what 300,00 years old? Plus if we think of her rapid aging the same way Poliel's lovers succuumbed to plague, she would truly be the Mistress of Time.
• Watcher, who witnessed all - No specific person, but definitely plenty of long lived creatures around, though would need to be really old to have witnessed "all"
• Walker, who patrolled borders not even he could see - My thought on this has to do with the borders: who can say when the past becomes the present?
• Saviour - Brys Beddict, whose outstretched hand was never grasped
• Betrayer - The Errant, whose loving embrace destroyed all it touched - fate and time bring change and death to all.

[Abyss]

FlynntMillit, on 27 May 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

My vote goes for being the "time" hold:

• Empty Throne, the throne that knew no King - Who can be said to control time?
• Wanderer Knight
• Mistress, who waited still, alone in her bed of dreams - Burn seems logical, but even the earth changes with time. Myhbe imo fills this perfecly. Silverfox's father was what 300,00 years old? Plus if we think of her rapid aging the same way Poliel's lovers succuumbed to plague, she would truly be the Mistress of Time.
• Watcher, who witnessed all - No specific person, but definitely plenty of long lived creatures around, though would need to be really old to have witnessed "all"
• Walker, who patrolled borders not even he could see - My thought on this has to do with the borders: who can say when the past becomes the present?
• Saviour - Brys Beddict, whose outstretched hand was never grasped
• Betrayer - The Errant, whose loving embrace destroyed all it touched - fate and time bring change and death to all.

Interesting theory but i'm not seeing it.
To the extent that time as an elemental force has been a factor in the series, it's amounted to the Eres'al tripping around, a temporal disconnect between some warrens, and the memory warrens we see in DG, HoC and TCG.

Walker almost must be Edgewalker to the extent that any reading ever links to an individual, and his link appears to be to Shadow, possibly Death.

Gothos' ritual froze death over Leth, but not time.

[FlynntMillit]

Re: edgewalker and death, it was hood who saw to the Mhybes sleep. I think edgewalker does make the most sense there too. Wandering Knight is the spot throwing me through a loop.

[Felisin Fatter]

Well, if it's time - I'm not convinced, but say it is. Then Wanderer Knight is the easiest: obviously Icarium, Knight of Time. Plenty of connections to Lether too, likely older than the Ritual of Tellan (is this confirmed in FoL?).

But: why then isn't there a Warren of Time? We never see it mentioned anywhere as a force that can be manipulated. All the 'time-travel' we see seems to be preserved memories, more linked to Dream magic. (And there is a Queen of Dreams!)

My current hypothesis is it's a hybrid between mind/fate (the first hold, brought into being by the Eres bonecasters, the first truly sentient beings) and Tellan (as in life-giving fire). This because both the Eres and the Imass were 'the stealers of fire'. The Eres first controlled fire. Then the Imass stole that power - then turned it to ashes through their ritual. In Lether the Eres never died out and the ritual never happened, hence a hybrid Hold of fate/mind/fire. Then the first empire humans came and,being humans, twisted it into a WMD.

[FlynntMillit]

Felisin Fatter, on 28 May 2016 - 02:12 PM, said:

Well, if it's time - I'm not convinced, but say it is. Then Wanderer Knight is the easiest: obviously Icarium, Knight of Time. Plenty of connections to Lether too, likely older than the Ritual of Tellan (is this confirmed in FoL?).

But: why then isn't there a Warren of Time? We never see it mentioned anywhere as a force that can be manipulated. All the 'time-travel' we see seems to be preserved memories, more linked to Dream magic. (And there is a Queen of Dreams!)

My current hypothesis is it's a hybrid between mind/fate (the first hold, brought into being by the Eres bonecasters, the first truly sentient beings) and Tellan (as in life-giving fire). This because both the Eres and the Imass were 'the stealers of fire'. The Eres first controlled fire. Then the Imass stole that power - then turned it to ashes through their ritual. In Lether the Eres never died out and the ritual never happened, hence a hybrid Hold of fate/mind/fire. Then the first empire humans came and,being humans, twisted it into a WMD.

interesting quote on the holds from the wiki, which begs the question was it forgotten in the eons between the Eres and the Human First Empire and rediscovered, or was it actually created by humans?

Quote

The First Empire discovered the initial Holds; the Empty Hold was a later manifestation. Although it was once used all over the world, its main usage was later limited to the continent of Lether.

This post has been edited by FlynntMillit: 03 June 2016 - 06:13 PM

[D'rek]

I've lean towards it being a Hold aspected to fate/destiny/etc. The Letheri are all about continuing to fulfill their supposed national destiny of expanding and assimilating other cultures, and they even have their own prophecy that their King will eventually sit in the Empty Throne, become Emperor of a reborn Human First Empire and their manifest destiny will spread even further. Makes sense for such a Hold to be the chosen Hold of the Letheri.

And the Errant stands behind the throne, because he's the Elder God of fate.

[Embrasure of Folly]

Hm. There's a lot of great thoughts in this thread.

For myself, I've come to think that the Empty Hold is the result of Hood's throwing the Warren of Death into the maw of Chaos. I'm assuming the BB ascendants will take over the hierarchy in the Death Warren though, so it's not destroyed. Nonetheless.

That said, I don't think you can really slot powerful characters into roles without understanding the nature of the hold itself. As a hold, it stands alongside the other holds, which are all Elder. Taking all the holds into consideration I'm kinda leaning toward the empty hold being the antithesis of civilization, of abusive structure, or hierarchy and all the degradations of society (something the jaghut and karsa both would be inclined toward - if, that is, the House of Chains is still in play after the CG bails out (actually asking on that point).

[Kanese S's]

Interesting thought.

Does the House of Chains cease to exist with the Crippled God's exit? Or does someone else take it over?