[petete]

I just reread FoD, and had some questions lingering on my mind, maybe others had some theories to quench my curiosity xD (spoilers of all the series, I mention Dancer's Lament but not a spoiler though, just something mentioned, skip the last two paragraphs if you want to know NOTHING about it):

Wu and founding races: reading FoD, I wonder what the hell is the deal with "invading races and founding races". I always thought that the Jaghut, Imass, FA, etc. lived in Wu and then the Tiste races "invaded", but we see it's not the case, they are living together in that continent where Kurald Galain, Omtose Phellack, and the rest of the cities, forests and "countries" are located. I'm hoping this will be clearer in the following books.

High king: correct me if I'm wrong, but how could this High King be Kallor? we are not in Wu, I think, so how can he have his Empire already? I mean, the ones who called the later Chained God were already mages, they already had Warrens, but at this point Warrens are not in place (from the summary, I assume this will pass in Fall of Light or even in the last book).

Burn: from the Malazan books, I always thought that Burn was an Elder Goddess (an Azathanai) that somehow "made" the world (or at least the land), but in FoD she's said to be a Dog-Runner (I assume they are Imass, as they run with Ay, the big wolves, hence their name). So, she's a Dog-Runner witch, very powerful, that it's worshipped (in FoD is mentioned that the "lesser" races made their new gods). So how the hell is she "dreaming" the world where the story in FoD takes place?? the world at that point is pretty old, I gather. I mean, they mention Eresal (probably Dog-Runner ancestors??) and that they left to the south (and incidentally, is the Eres'al Goddess an Azathanai? did she create the Eresal? I though Imass were descended form them, but Olar Ethil created them or so it's said, so ... wtf?), and Draconus use the corpse of a Thel Akai dead queen in Feran. This confused me, from everything that it's said and implied, the world existed long before Burn ... so, how? or what?

Azathanai and races: so, is the scholar living with the Borderswords right? the Azathanai created ALL the races? and do you think that Azathanai can die? Nightchill was cursed by Kallor to die in a battlefield, but I think I read somewhere that she liked to roam as a mortal and so was cursed to remain thus, and that's why she could die (not the forum for this, but in Dancer's Lament she somewhat confirms this). What I mean is, if for the Sister of Cold Nights to die, a curse to remain mortal was needed, the rest of the Azathanai can't die? Kilmandaros, killed by Draconus in the TCG really died? or do they just "fade" and return from where they're from?

Azath: If I'm not mistaken, the houses where the Azathanai live are called Azath? the stone that they fashion for the highborn Tistes makes their houses Azath? I didn't get this.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

[Felisin Fatter]

I have some theories...

1 - Wu / Burn / Invaders: this could all change depending on the rest of the trilogy, but right now my theory is that the Tiste (and Eleint) will fuck up their realms so badly that the world is threatened. Or the Vitr becomes an acute threat. In response, Burn, K'rul and others will work together to cut out the problem areas, kinda like they did with Kallor's continent. So they create separate 'warrens' for each warring race: the elder warrens. These become separate from Wu. Burn stays behind to heal the land and make life there possible (by dreaming). Olar Ethils Ritual has to tie into this too somehow, but I haven't figured it out.
The new warrens are not happy places though, plus the Tiste just continue their habit of destroying their surroundings, and soon the inhabitants flee (except the Liosan). They go back 'down'(?) to the planet, but different continent (Lether). Hence 'invaders'. On that continent arrived several waves and K'Chain had colonized it much earlier.
The 'founding races' thing I think is pure speculation by much later historians. Or propaganda surviving from way back.


2 - The Kallor disaster happened 150k years (give or take) after FoD, so he might be a benevolent High King in this age? It is definitely not that same empire, but he does claim to have made many empires. There is also a story at some point about the High King/Kallor marrying a Liosan woman, ending in tragedy. (Maybe making him a darker person?) And I think there's a Tiste in FoD with that same name. We only have fragments of a larger story here.


3 - Burn: see above. Other than that I'm as lost as you are. Maybe Burn created humans?


4 - Azathanai / Azath: I don't think the Azathanai created much. My theory is they sprung up as 'mental constructs / metaphor made real' because people thought about it. But they are also real, and many of them meddled with the race that caused them, in an attempt to help them along. FoD is where we see that ending in tragedy.
Azath houses like we see in the main books are I think just being born. As a consequence of what Draconus and Errastas are doing with the binding power with blood thing. But we'll have to see.
The hearthstones / bridge / etc. are fascinating, but I don't know what they mean either.

[petete]

Felisin Fatter, on 14 March 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:

I have some theories...

1 - Wu / Burn / Invaders: this could all change depending on the rest of the trilogy, but right now my theory is that the Tiste (and Eleint) will fuck up their realms so badly that the world is threatened. Or the Vitr becomes an acute threat. In response, Burn, K'rul and others will work together to cut out the problem areas, kinda like they did with Kallor's continent. So they create separate 'warrens' for each warring race: the elder warrens. These become separate from Wu. Burn stays behind to heal the land and make life there possible (by dreaming). Olar Ethils Ritual has to tie into this too somehow, but I haven't figured it out.
The new warrens are not happy places though, plus the Tiste just continue their habit of destroying their surroundings, and soon the inhabitants flee (except the Liosan). They go back 'down'(?) to the planet, but different continent (Lether). Hence 'invaders'. On that continent arrived several waves and K'Chain had colonized it much earlier.
The 'founding races' thing I think is pure speculation by much later historians. Or propaganda surviving from way back.

I just don't get that Burn's dreaming makes life possible. We get hints that the world is already old (Tiste wars, Tiste royal line extinct, the grave of the Thel Akai queen, the age of some Tiste, I think that the mother of the Shake was thousands of years old?), so how did life exist without Burn?

Felisin Fatter, on 14 March 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:

2 - The Kallor disaster happened 150k years (give or take) after FoD, so he might be a benevolent High King in this age? It is definitely not that same empire, but he does claim to have made many empires. There is also a story at some point about the High King/Kallor marrying a Liosan woman, ending in tragedy. (Maybe making him a darker person?) And I think there's a Tiste in FoD with that same name. We only have fragments of a larger story here.

Yes, maybe, I don't know. In Fall of Light summary, it's said "From the Western Sea strange ships have grounded upon the harsh shore, with blue-skinned strangers arriving to offer Hood their swords..." so maybe this blue skinned strangers have something to do with the High King, that built a ship?

[Siergiej]

I need to gather my thoughts and notes for a more complete answer, but as for Azathanai dying, they definitely can. From what Olar Ethil and Draconus say when they meet, they can even see into the future to witness their deaths. From Chapter 11:

Quote

‘I think not. We are no wiser, Draconus. We fall into the same traps, over and over again. For all that I am fed by my Dog-Runners, I do not understand them; and for all that I nurtured Burn, at my own breast, still I underestimated her. I fear it is that fated disregard that will see the end of me some day.’
‘Will you not see your own death?’
‘I choose not to. Best it come in an instant, unexpected and so not feared. To live in dread of dying is to not live at all. Pray that I am running on my last day, fleet as a hare, my heart filled with fire.’
‘So I shall pray, Olar Ethil. For you.’
‘What of your death, Draconus? You were always one for planning, no matter how many times those plans failed you.’
‘I will,’ he replied, ‘die many deaths.’
‘You have seen them?’
‘No. I have no need for that.’

But death in the Malazan world does not work the same way as in ours. Even mortals can make a comeback and so can Azathanai, especially that gods aren't easy to kill. Olar Ethil was burnt alive, Scabandari had his skull crushed, and Crippled God was literally torn into pieces: Malazan deities can endure a lot of damage

[worry]

Re: Burn, she was nursed by Olar Ethil. Very possible she's the "second" Bonecaster, and the first risen from her own people. There's also mention of an ever-sleeping Thel Akai queen, so maybe it's an ongoing role, though the Thel isn't said to have a purpose as far as I remember. Anyway, not all origin stories start from the beginning. You can think of Noah's Ark as an origin story, even though there's clearly years of history before the Flood. Making perfect sense isn't really the objective.

[petete]

Siergiej, on 21 April 2016 - 10:11 PM, said:

I need to gather my thoughts and notes for a more complete answer, but as for Azathanai dying, they definitely can.

I think that as Azathanai, they can't die.

I mean, Nightchill died because Kallor cursed her to walk in mortal flesh forever, and as such she was slain in GotM.

They same as Olar Ethil. She took part in the Imass Ritual to become undead, and she became undead. In TCG, she became mortal again (was it Fener's blood? can't recall, read it long ago), thus Torrent was able to slay her with an arrow.

Maybe Draconus did something special to kill Kilmandaros, I don't know, but it was a bit anticlimatic (if in FoD she's already old, as the Thel Akai are an old race, in TCG she's ancient, +300k years).

[Siergiej]

They say themselves they can die in the convo between Draconus and Olar Ethil I quoted above.

[petete]

Siergiej, on 08 May 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

They say themselves they can die in the convo between Draconus and Olar Ethil I quoted above.

Well, Olar Ethil once said that she was Burn, which is clearly not the case, so I really don't rely on what they say, more in what happens

[Siergiej]

And we do see Azathanai die in the series. So what happens that makes you think they cannot?

[petete]

Siergiej, on 08 May 2016 - 10:30 PM, said:

And we do see Azathanai die in the series. So what happens that makes you think they cannot?

Well, many things, besides e.g. Olar Ethil. Krul did not die for hundreds of thousands of years, even though he literally bled himself dry, so how can I think of them a "normal" mortals? no blood and the lad keeps on living xD

Draconus, another example. When he gets out of the sword, he's not dead (what I mean is that he's not an undead, such as Tulas Shorn, for example), but he was slayed by it (and we saw than when AR kill someone, the soul get sucked, but not the body).

That's what I mean that I do not know if the "normal" mortal definition applies to them. Can they be killed? do they have a natural form? their natural form is just energy? the form we see them normally, is their natural one, or something they wear because it suits them?

Again, this is what I thought of reading the books, I may be mistaken, just my impression.

[Kanese S's]

Hold on. Not everyone released by the destruction of the sword is undead. Apsalara isn't, for one.

[petete]

Kanese S, on 09 May 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

Hold on. Not everyone released by the destruction of the sword is undead. Apsalara isn't, for one.

She's godess, they are weird. I mean, that "god cemetary" at the bottom of the sea and the list of names to be remembered, so they don't fade, that Brys had in his head. In TCG, the shades of the gods that speak with Shadowthrone & Cotillion. I'm not entierly sure about the rules on their deaths, bodies, etc..

For example, we know that Poliel was torned apart by the hounds (of Darkness, were they?), but is she totally dead? can she resurface? I don't really know.

[Kanese S's]

petete, on 09 May 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 09 May 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

Hold on. Not everyone released by the destruction of the sword is undead. Apsalara isn't, for one.

She's godess, they are weird. I mean, that "god cemetary" at the bottom of the sea and the list of names to be remembered, so they don't fade, that Brys had in his head. In TCG, the shades of the gods that speak with Shadowthrone & Cotillion. I'm not entierly sure about the rules on their deaths, bodies, etc..

For example, we know that Poliel was torned apart by the hounds (of Darkness, were they?), but is she totally dead? can she resurface? I don't really know.

It seems that when deities are fully manifesting, they can indeed die.