[Aptorian]

Not actually being able to watch Raw or Smackdown via the entertainment subscription, I am not surprised that they are importing a lot of NXT. The wrestling we saw at Wrestlemania seemed pretty tired, while NXT seems really exiting, with wrestlers that manage to be entertaining and technically impressive.

I really like the Vaudvillains. I'd like to see a match between them and New Day.

I have resumed my binge watching of old pay per views. I have reached 1993, the guys I remember watching as a kid have started to show up. Razor Ramone, Yokozuna, Tatanka, The Steiner Brothers, Bret and Owen Heart, Doink, etc. While I enjoyed watching the classic 80s shows and that eras wrestlers, I definitely prefer the 90s.

Which leads me to a question for the Malazites. What's your opinion on Bret Hart? Everything I have heard or seen of him here in the 2010s, makes him seem broken down and bitter. Which you could argue was understandable given the Montreal Screwjob, Owen Harts death, his brain damage, etc. On the other hand though, I have been watching a bunch of shoot interviews and "documentary" style pieces on Hart and everyone seems to consider him a prima donna and hard to work with. It's honestly impossible to tell whether this is kayfabe mixing with reality or what ever is the truth.

So what do you think? Did Hart get screwed or did Bret Hart screw Bret Hart?

I was just watching Wrestlemania 1993, where Hart loses to Yokozuna and then Hulk Hogan came in to beat Yokozuna easily and take the title.

This was referenced heavily in this video called "The Burial of Bret Hart":



It's super hard to separate what makes the best match and what makes the best business sense. On one hand I understand that WWF wants to make money and Hogan wants to protect his reputation/career but on the other hand, in terms of presentation, it seemed suuuper cheap to just have Hogan run into the ring and win the championship belt in 2 minutes.

Of course, Hogan is supposedly also incredibly hard to book to do anything that isn't good for Hogan.

[Aptorian]

Coco with marshmallows, on 04 April 2016 - 09:26 PM, said:

Apt, on 04 April 2016 - 06:52 PM, said:

The HHH vs Roman Reigns match was so strange. I know the fans are fickle but I really do get the impression Roman Reigns would work much, much better as a Heel or Anti-face sort of character. I mean he looks like a Villain already.

The fans aren't fickle. They just dislike being told who they're supposed to root for, when the person they're supposed to root for isn't that good.

Reigns was the least talented member of the Shield, but it wasn't obvious how bad he was because Ambrose and Rollins made up for him.

Since having to stand on his own two feet?

It really says something when at WRESTLEMANIA you have to mute the crowd reactions.....

The Shield is from before I started paying attention again so I have no real opinion on that. I will say though that Dean Ambrose is incredibly uninteresting to me. I watched his matches at the last Royal Rumble and this Wrestlemania and he just looks like some bum in civilian clothing. Nothing about him says "wrestler" to me. Not his outfit. Not his look. Not his physique. He seemed good on the Mic but I just didn't buy him having a place in a ring. Same thing about Kevin Owns by the way. He looks like a couch potato that has grown mold.

Roman Reigns on the other hand looks the part. He's "good looking", has a great outfit, cool moves and he's big. Which is more or less the Vince McMahon formula for "WWE superstar". Unfortunately he just doesn't say "baby face" to me. Which makes everything he does or says seem like mixed messaging.

[Gorefest]

Seriously? Owens is one of the most talented wrestlers in de company. The guy was a big star on the independent circuit before he came to NXT. He has had some of the best and highest acclaimed matches around. Don't let his physique fool you, the guy is an amazing wrestler. On top of that, Owens and Ambrose are two of the best guys on the mic at the moment, together with Bray Wyatt. Roman Reigns stinks on the mic, he is awful at cutting promo's especially as a face. In the Shield he was the silent brooding muscle guy and they were a heel team. As a face he is just dire. The new Cena he is not, no matter how hard Vince is trying to push him into that role.

This is also the 'problem' at the moment. WWE is suddenly picking up all these amazing wrestlers from the independent circuit and from competitors (Zayn, Nakamura, AJ Styles, Aries, etc), mainly championed by HHH, but Vince keeps turning them into Superstars because that is his thing and that is what made the company big. So you have all these amazing guys around who can blow the roof off a place, but they have to bend the knee to bulky giants and chiseled weightlifter types because that is the Vince McMahon approved WWE superstar mould.

Time for Vince to retire, I'm afraid. He is out of touch with his own fanbase. People want to see skills and wrestling again. You can also see that in the increase in popularity of the independent circuit (ring of honour, pro japan wrestling, etc) and things like MMA/UFC.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 07 April 2016 - 08:45 PM

[Aptorian]

I've heard that. And I liked his contribution to the ladder match during Wrestlemania 32 (Some say he is still lying on that ladder) but he does not look like what my, admittedly outdated, impression of what a "professional wrestler" should look like. Or perhaps more precisely what a WWE wrestler should look like.

This is Roman Reigns:



This is HHH:



This is Kevin Owens:



He looks like a fat kid who showed up for PE and forgot his gym clothes so he had to just pick what ever was lying in the lost and found.

I like gimmicks and I like wrestling looking costumes. I get that Owens gimmick is that he's a rough and tumble every man, who doesn't conform to the traditional mold, but man...

This post has been edited by Apt: 07 April 2016 - 09:00 PM

[Gorefest]

Regarding Bret Hart, it's tricky. The guy definitely has a chip on his shoulder but he actually was one of the hardest workers in the company. In my opinion, he got screwed. I understand the reasoning, but it was still incredibly underhand. It was a weird period though, at the height of the Monday night Wars, with fierce competition between the two big companies and they were literally fighting for survival.

The WWE could not afford Hart to potentially walk out with the title and they didn't want another Alundra Blayze scenario. Bret is adamant in his autobiography that he would have dropped the belt in his next match, he just didn't want to lose it in his home state. But Vince didn't dare to risk it. Considering the loyalty that Bret had shown towards the WWE up to then (he only left the company because Vince couldn't afford him anymore and basically almost begged him to), it was a shitty thing to do. Made perfect business sense though.

But I don't think he is bitter anymore. He made his peace with Vince and HHH and HBK several years ago already and he regularly shows up again at WWE ppvs and Canadian tour dates on a Legends contract.

[Gorefest]

Apt, on 07 April 2016 - 08:57 PM, said:

I've heard that. And I liked his contribution to the ladder match during Wrestlemania 32 (Some say he is still lying on that ladder) but he does not look like what my, admittedly outdated, impression of what a "professional wrestler" should look like. Or perhaps more precisely what a WWE wrestler should look like.

I thought you just watched all the 80'ies WMs? There were tons of chubby guys back then. Just look at Dusty Rhodes, one of the greatest of all time. Or a Harley Race. Those guys are brawlers, not pretty boys. Technically, on a pure wrestling front, Owens blows HHH and Reigns completely out of the water. They aren't even in the same league. And he is an amazing heel as well. Just watch some YouTube footage of him on the mic, it's entertaining as hell.

[Coco with marshmallows]

also, please note you're comparing him to HHH - who i'm pretty sure has never had to take a wellness test in his life (look up the story by Scott Steiner about that....)

[Gorefest]

Yeah, steroids are banned unless you're management. Have you ever seen Vince without his shirt on?

[Gorefest]

On a completely unrelated note, you have to admire the prophetic vision of Vince. Way back when he even knew about the current state of the US elections!

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 08 April 2016 - 01:18 PM

[Aptorian]

Gorefest, on 07 April 2016 - 09:05 PM, said:

Apt, on 07 April 2016 - 08:57 PM, said:

I've heard that. And I liked his contribution to the ladder match during Wrestlemania 32 (Some say he is still lying on that ladder) but he does not look like what my, admittedly outdated, impression of what a "professional wrestler" should look like. Or perhaps more precisely what a WWE wrestler should look like.

I thought you just watched all the 80'ies WMs? There were tons of chubby guys back then. Just look at Dusty Rhodes, one of the greatest of all time. Or a Harley Race. Those guys are brawlers, not pretty boys. Technically, on a pure wrestling front, Owens blows HHH and Reigns completely out of the water. They aren't even in the same league. And he is an amazing heel as well. Just watch some YouTube footage of him on the mic, it's entertaining as hell.

I am actually really confused by Dusty Rhodes. I assume that by the time I saw him in one of the first Manias he'd been in the business for a long time, otherwise I don't see how he could have been as over as he was. But the guy was basically a slightly more appealing Adrian Adonis. Just a giant mountain of lard stumbling around a ring.

The thing is though that really big fat guys sort of make sense in WWE as a kind of obstacle to be overcome. Yokozuna, Mable, King Kong Bundy, etc. They're not athletic at all but they work as something for your stars to over come.

But Owens isn't that big. He doesn't look exceptional in anyway, perhaps the exception is that he looks decidedly "un-superstar". He just looks out of shape. And yes, I know there is a back story behind his health but there are ways to work around that.

I'd expect the standards of the Wrestlers to become more demanding over time.

Coco with marshmallows, on 07 April 2016 - 10:19 PM, said:

also, please note you're comparing him to HHH - who i'm pretty sure has never had to take a wellness test in his life (look up the story by Scott Steiner about that....)

Gorefest, on 08 April 2016 - 10:23 AM, said:

Yeah, steroids are banned unless you're management. Have you ever seen Vince without his shirt on?

I am sure there are plenty of Wrestlers that are on gallons of steroids but I don't really care outside competitive sports. Guys like Ryback, Lesnar and Cena have to be on Steroids given their size and definition but I'd not be surprised if the entire WWE roster was on some form of steroids, much like the NFL. Given their line of work it makes sense. Size sells and when managed, I suspect that steroids are actually keeping a lot of them healthier than they would be with out the juice. They take a hell of a lot of bumps over the course of the year.

There is also a difference between a wrestler in his or her 50-60s and their 20s or 30s. HHHs physique is attainable as an athlete. Owens could look like that with out steroids. Vince McMahon or HHH not so much.

Gorefest, on 08 April 2016 - 01:17 PM, said:

On a completely unrelated note, you have to admire the prophetic vision of Vince. Way back when he even knew about the current state of the US elections!

I am looking forward to finding out which pay per view Steve Austin gave Trump a Stunner. It looks so goofy in the gifs.

This post has been edited by Apt: 08 April 2016 - 05:26 PM

[Aptorian]

I am sitting and watching Summerslam 1995 now. Interesting characters popping up.

A fight between Hunter Hearst Helmsley and Bob Sparkplug Holly before they became HHH and Hardcore Holly. Bret Hart is fighting a big guy called Isaac Yankeem who is obviously Kane. It's always funny to see wrestlers in different roles before they assumed much more iconic personas.

I was also impressed by Bob Backlund in 1994. He's a goofy babyface type character playing heel. He looks incredibly dumb but he's surprisingly great. According to Wikipedia he quickly lost attention in the mid 90s but he's probably one of the best wrestlers I've seen in the mid 90s.

[Tiste Simeon]

So reading this thread made me realise how much I used to love it and I checked out WWE Network on their website. I like the look of it and you get a free month but nowhere does it tell me how much it will cost... Seems like it might be a lot!

[Aptorian]

10 dollars I think it was. They tell you when you make the subscription.

[Gorefest]

Tiste Simeon, on 10 April 2016 - 06:52 PM, said:

So reading this thread made me realise how much I used to love it and I checked out WWE Network on their website. I like the look of it and you get a free month but nowhere does it tell me how much it will cost... Seems like it might be a lot!

$9.99 per month, or £9.99 if you are in the UK. That includes all the PPV events (13 per year), weekly NXT show, lots of historical footage and lots of original shows, docs and interviews. The only downside is that you cannot get the most recent Raw and Smackdown shows straight away, you only get them 3-4 months after they were originally broadcast.
In the UK, Raw and Smackdown are broadcast via Sky Sports.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 10 April 2016 - 08:56 PM

[Aptorian]

I was just watching this post-raw footage and was fascinated by how the dynamics of the in-ring wrestling and the presentation changes seen from the stands.



I already thought of Wrestling as a form of theater but looking at their exaggerated, bombastic movement I realize part of it isn't just for the camera but also so that the nosebleeds can actually follow what is happening.

[Gorefest]

It is a completely different beast, watching it on TV and seeing it in real life. Someone like Dolph Ziggler often gets accused of over-selling his moves, but when you are in the stands the wrestlers really have to embellish the hits and bumps in order for the audience to see it. Don't forget as well that, if you are in the audience, you don't hear the commentary from Michael Cole and JBL etc. All your information is coming from pre/post-match promo's and backstage things that they show on the screen, but other than that the whole story is told on the mat. The crowd reaction is a very important bit of the total package and atmosphere, not just in the stadium but also for the home viewer, so they need to fire up the crowd first and foremost. It's a difficult balance. I've been to live shows where they put on what I thought to be an amazing match, only to read really lacklustre feedback on online forums afterwards. And vice versa.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 13 April 2016 - 12:03 PM

[Gorefest]

In London now. Raw tapings tonight, Smackdown tapings tomorrow. Should be fun!

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 18 April 2016 - 07:02 AM

[Aptorian]

I'm curious. What is the point of taping the show in different locations? It must increase production costs by a lot.

Is it just a part of international travel schedules? Like a circus or band traveling around the world?

[Gorefest]

I'm not sure I understand the question. WWE fans are all over the world. People aren't going to fly to one location every week to fill a venue. They make their money from selling tickets and merch. If they stay in the same location every week they wouldn't get a fraction of the crowds they attract now. You don't have Taylor Swift sing in the same venue every day either. Clearly it makes them money. It is also a great way of binding with the fans. The WwE audience is quite a special crowd.

[Aptorian]

I can't watch Raw or Smackdown so I don't really know what their production value is like or what the broadcast consists of, but I would imagine that a two episode a week TV-show is a rather complicated affair to produce. The notion that they would travel around the world with the show sounds strange to me. I'd have thought WWE just owned a bunch of stadiums in the US that they filmed their TV-shows in.

Aren't there all kinds of behind the stage footage, etc. in the show? I can't imagine they would actually ship hundreds of WWE staff from city to city week after week.