[acesn8s]

Tsundoku, on 27 November 2018 - 12:09 PM, said:

Gorefest, on 27 November 2018 - 11:57 AM, said:

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 27 November 2018 - 04:46 AM, said:

Off the top of my head, Miriamele passing as a boy = Arya. And evil peeps from the Norf' bringing a magical Winter.

EDIT: Found this list https://ostenard.com...rrow-and-thorn/

Well, don't leave us hanging in suspense. How does the Tad Williams tale end?

I guess you could say it hasn't finished yet either. Another thing GRRM ripped off ...

Damn!

[Werthead]

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Can you?

The fact that a whole slew of websites have already done the work for me means I needn't type it out here and do your googling for you, but it's pretty freely available the easy comparisons. Start with the various ones I mentioned already.

That's a "no", then.

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None of these examples, as singular homages with vaster, greater works, are the more complete and hewing historical cribbing that Martin gets into with his series

Because you say so?

Interesting.

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The Tudors were only vaguely related to the royal line by the second marriage of Catherine of Valois to essentially a nobody from Wales (Owen Tudor) - there were a lot of people had better and closer claims to the throne than the Tudors. It's arguably nitpicky but they really weren't closely related (and that's why they're interesting and precocious, and the eventual outcome is so fascinating)

Oh, that's fair, but the Tudors are certainly more closely related to the other combatants than the Tyrells or Targaryens (depending on which family you consider the equivalent of the Tudors: the Targs because they win, or the Tyrells because of the rose symbol and their superior position at the end of ADWD), whose relationship to the Starks and Lannisters is fairly minor. Also note that the Wars of the Roses was fought for the crown itself, whilst the Starks are fighting initially to free Ned and then for independence, and the Lannisters are fighting to support a Baratheon claimant (albeit related to themselves).

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Agreed on Towton, but if you don't restrict it to just the War of the Five Kings and go back to Robert's Rebellion, I would say there's a good argument Tywin is Warwick. It's not exact but it's there. If memory serves, the Lannisters come into the Aerys/Robert fight very late on Robert's side after Tywin falls out with Aerys (Warwick changed sides and allied to Margaret of Anjou late in the game after becoming disillusioned with Edward IV). Tywin's daughter marries the proposed king after being refused a previous match - Edward IV forbade his brother George of Clarence to marry Isabel Neville, Warwick's daughter - so Warwick had them married when he defected to Margaret. His second daughter Anne then ends up married to Richard III.

I'm not sure on that. Tywin deliberately absents himself from the entire war and plays no role until the last minute, whilst Warwick was involved from very early on and his support was vital to both sides (hence the Kingmaker epithet). They were both extremely rich, but a major difference was that Tywin had his own enormous, mostly loyal army whilst Warwick didn't have such a large force (well, no-one in the actual history did, because England was far tinier than Westeros in size and population).

Tywin's support was also helpful in ending the war so quickly, but following the victory at the Trident, the Stark-Lannister-Tully-Baratheron-Arryn army had overwhelming superiority of numbers and resources, so they would have won regardless. It would have just taken a longer siege of King's Landing.

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The Baratheon brothers are a fairly good parallel for the three brothers of the House of York. The Robert of the first book is late-game Edward IV (fat, whoring etc.) whereas the young Robert of Robert's Rebellion fits too - tall, imposingly built, gifted battle commander etc., Renly is George of Clarence (affable, shallow, opportunistic) and Stannis is Richard of Gloucester (particularly if you're a subscriber to the "Richard murdered the Princes in the Tower" theory) - Richard was deeply pious and also entirely ruthless, but did plenty that was "for the good of the realm/common weal" as well. He also loses his only child (Edward of Middleham).

I'd say there are some similarities and differences there. Edward IV I think was split between Robert (the far whoring bit) and Robb (the dashing young warrior who led from the front and followed his heart when it cost him his support). I think Renly was far more charismatic and convincing than George of Clarence, and there is no evidence that George was gay. Also, Richard (who I agree has some Stannis-like qualities) tried to save his brother rather then directly arranging his death.

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With regards your list of other fantasy examples - I do wonder if they would bother me more if I read them in the form of a world book in one or two sittings. Martin's felt more egregious in that form (because it was all coming thick and fast) than it possibly is. But whichever Aegon it was (if it was an Aegon, might have been a Maegor?) who got fat and temperamental and had six wives still really irks me. That would have taken no effort to alter.

Maegor the Cruel (who wasn't fat but did go stark raving mad and impaled himself to death on the Iron Throne) had six wives, four of them simultaneously, but as a character he was very different to Henry VIII. You might also be thinking of Aegon IV, who did get monstrously fat: he only had one wife (his sister-wife Naerys) but he did have nine "great mistresses" and very many minor ones.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Interesting to read your thoughts on all that!

Maegor and Aegon IV - I suspect my reading lots of it in one go is showing a bit, as it seems I'm conflating people!

[polishgenius]

Werthead, on 26 November 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

The Rohirrim are just "Vikings with horses", which Tolkien thought was fine. Joe Abercrombie has written novels which are effectively The Searcher in Fantasyland and The Mafia in Fantasyland.

I must quibble! The Rohirrim were as much Polish as they were viking, culminating in the Ride of the Rohirrim being a replica of Sobieski's relief of the Battle of Vienna.

Also the detour into Deadwood in Red Country. In fairness those books were more obviously Tarantino-style referential than Martin is aiming for, though I do think QT is being a little unfair (with the history stuff anyway. I can't speak for MST, though I've always thought there were also notable similarities between Feist's Magician and aSoIaF, specifically that the Starks are very ConDoin and that Westeros bears more than a passing resemblance to The Kingdom tipped on its side, with King's Landing doing double duty for both Krondor and Rillanon). Like you say, it's hardly unusual for fantasy authors to crib from history and I don't think there's anything wrong with it- and you couldn't use GRRM for an actual history lesson the way you probably could some of GGKay's stuff.

[QuickTidal]

Werthead, on 27 November 2018 - 08:17 PM, said:

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Can you?

The fact that a whole slew of websites have already done the work for me means I needn't type it out here and do your googling for you, but it's pretty freely available the easy comparisons. Start with the various ones I mentioned already.

That's a "no", then.

It's most certainly not a no. It's me not waning to do your work for you when you are the one challenging my comments. Allow me to parse what I said though (without the googling part of the statement; which is self-explanatory). I stated a bunch of parallels in broader historical terms that if you bothered to investigate you'd find link up to existing characters (Lucretia = Lyanna <----he even went with a L name...because reasons I guess) and events and places in a lot of cases. Brienne follows a Joan of Arc archetype for another example (ugly, manish, wears knights armour, slavishly devoted to her king/dauphin almost to her own detriment). The whole story is scattered with parallels if you wish to see them, which isn't hard because they are not subtle.

Werthead, on 27 November 2018 - 08:17 PM, said:

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None of these examples, as singular homages with vaster, greater works, are the more complete and hewing historical cribbing that Martin gets into with his series

Because you say so?

Interesting.

Am I the only one on thread bringing to bear Martin's historical cribbing? No. So no, not because I say so. But more because the many parallels that I (and others here and on other parts of the web) noted in ASOIAF to historical sameness...does not compare to minor singular incidents on other works as you've mentioned. Just because Tolkien's Rohirrim are essentially like vikings, doesn't mean that you can find parallels for all the characters and other events in the work. Do Frodo, Merry, Pippin, and Sam have historical counterparts? What about Mordor? The ring? And let's not forget that Middle Earth was Tolkien was creating an ancient mythology for his own lands in Britain, so some historical allegories like the Rohirrim would even be warranted in such a work, so that's not a great example to start with. Also, let's not put George Martin into the same category as a literary great...he can put R.R. in the middle of his name all he likes...he's can't polish the shoes of the man himself.

Look, I get it man. ASOIAF is your hardcore jam. George is your guy. But there is really no need to go on such a defense of the things the guy clearly did. Does it remove your enjoyment of the work for me and some others to think it's cribbing from history a little too closely and therefore is not all that inventive? Why should you care what I think at all?

It seems like our impasse here is that I think that he hews too close to historical figures, events, and other aspects...and you don't see those links at all. which is fine. But it likely means we're not going to agree.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

QuickTidal, on 28 November 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

, let's not put George Martin into the same category as a literary great...he can put R.R. in the middle of his name all he likes...he's can't polish the shoes of the man himself.

Not the fault of anyone in this thread, but the media at large deeming him the "American Tolkien" is..... irksome to say the least. It's all personal taste and opinions, but there is utterly no comparison for me so to keep seeing it as a lazy throwaway does induce lots of eye rolling.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 28 November 2018 - 03:47 PM

[QuickTidal]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 28 November 2018 - 03:47 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 28 November 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

, let's not put George Martin into the same category as a literary great...he can put R.R. in the middle of his name all he likes...he's can't polish the shoes of the man himself.

Not the fault of anyone in this thread, but the media at large deeming him the "American Tolkien" is..... irksome to say the least. It's all personal taste and opinions, but there is utterly no comparison for me so to keep seeing it as a lazy throwaway does induce lots of eye rolling.

Yeah, you're right it does seem to be a media moniker. I don't like it either.

[Coltaine -]

Tsundoku, on 27 November 2018 - 12:09 PM, said:

Gorefest, on 27 November 2018 - 11:57 AM, said:

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 27 November 2018 - 04:46 AM, said:

Off the top of my head, Miriamele passing as a boy = Arya. And evil peeps from the Norf' bringing a magical Winter.

EDIT: Found this list https://ostenard.com...rrow-and-thorn/

Well, don't leave us hanging in suspense. How does the Tad Williams tale end?

I guess you could say it hasn't finished yet either. Another thing GRRM ripped off ...

Maybe we have to wait until Tad William has finished his series before George those the same
Still, a very long list. Never read anything from Williams before, but now I'm interested. Does anyone know how the chances are that he will ever finish?

[QuickTidal]

- Coltaine -, on 28 November 2018 - 04:05 PM, said:

Tsundoku, on 27 November 2018 - 12:09 PM, said:

Gorefest, on 27 November 2018 - 11:57 AM, said:

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 27 November 2018 - 04:46 AM, said:

Off the top of my head, Miriamele passing as a boy = Arya. And evil peeps from the Norf' bringing a magical Winter.

EDIT: Found this list https://ostenard.com...rrow-and-thorn/

Well, don't leave us hanging in suspense. How does the Tad Williams tale end?

I guess you could say it hasn't finished yet either. Another thing GRRM ripped off ...

Maybe we have to wait until Tad William has finished his series before George those the same
Still, a very long list. Never read anything from Williams before, but now I'm interested. Does anyone know how the chances are that he will ever finish?

MS&T is done.

The sequel series (Last King of Osten Ard) takes place some 30 years later and concerns a whole new set of events only mildly connected.

[QuickTidal]

Briar King, on 28 November 2018 - 04:25 PM, said:

Williams WILL finish. George I doubt.

Go read Williams he’s fun.

Williams is a pretty easy guy to set your watch by for releases. None of his books have faced delays that I know of.

But he's one of my fave authors, so I'm biased.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 28 November 2018 - 04:45 PM

[Abyss]

OTHERLAND was a great trilogy!

... what were we talking about?

[Coltaine -]

QuickTidal, on 28 November 2018 - 04:15 PM, said:

MS&T is done.

The sequel series (Last King of Osten Ard) takes place some 30 years later and concerns a whole new set of events only mildly connected.

Briar King, on 28 November 2018 - 04:25 PM, said:

Williams WILL finish. George I doubt.

Go read Williams he's fun.

Thanks for the info. I will do that. I was already searching for a new book series to start with during christmas holidays

[worry]

Strong Belwas is a better character than anyone in the entire annals of Middle Earth.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Abyss, on 28 November 2018 - 04:47 PM, said:

OTHERLAND was a great trilogy!

... what were we talking about?

And it would have been an even better duology with a good editor

[champ]

The next book is so not coming...
https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/

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I look around, and I don’t know where 2021 went. I blinked and it was gone. Not a year that I am going to mourn much, any more than 2020. A global pandemic, so many deaths (including friends of mine, as well as celebrities of all sorts), politics grown increasingly toxic… it was a year best forgotten. I did, however, get a lot of work done in 2021. An enormous amount of work, in truth; I seem to have an enormous number of projects.

(I am not complaining. I like working. Writing, editing, producing. There is nothing I like better than storytelling).

I know, I know, for many of you out there, only one of those projects matters.

I am sorry for you. They ALL matter to me.

Yes, of course I am still working on THE WINDS OF WINTER. I have stated that a hundred times in a hundred venues, having to restate it endlessly is just wearisome. I made a lot of progress on WINDS in 2020, and less in 2021… but “less” is not “none.”

The world of Westeros, the world of A SONG OF ICE & FIRE, is my number one priority, and will remain so until the story is told. But Westeros has become bigger than THE WINDS OF WINTER, or even A SONG OF ICE & FIRE. In addition to WINDS, I also need to deliver the second volume of Archmaester Gyldayn’s history, FIRE & BLOOD. (Thinking of calling that one BLOOD & FIRE, rather than just F&B, Vol 2). Got a couple hundred pages of that one written, but there’s still a long way to go. I need to write more of the Dunk & Egg novellas, tell the rest of their stories, especially since there’s a television series about them in development. There’s a lavish coffee table book coming later this year, an illustrated, condensed version of FIRE & BLOOD done with Elio Garcia and Linda Antonsson (my partners on THE WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE), and my Fevre River art director, Raya Golden. And another book after that, a Who’s Who in Westeros. And that’s just the books.

There are also the successor shows. Those have taken a ton of my time and attention this year. I have seen some comments out there questioning how much I am involved in these new series. The answer is: a lot. Deeply, heavily involved in every one of the new shows. It’s my world, and while I have been working closely with some fantastic writers and showrunners, ultimately it is up to me to try to keep the canon… well, canonical… and to do all I can to help make the new shows great. (And I love these stories too).

So far, I am very excited. HOUSE OF THE DRAGON has wrapped in London and is now in post-production. What I have seen, I have loved. I am eager to see more. I am excited about the other successor shows as well, however. I am dying to tell you all about them, but I am not supposed to, so…

Well, maybe there a few things I can tell you. Things that HBO has previously announced, or hinted at, or…

We are developing live action shows for HBO, and animated shows for HBO Max. No, can’t tell you how many. But it is my hope that a number of these shows will get on the air. Not all, no, it is never all, but more than one. I certainly hope so. Some of the ideas we are working on are quite different in tone and approach than what has gone before, and that thrills me. The world of Westeros (and Essos, etc) is huge, and there is room in it for many types of stories, about a wide range of characters.

What can I tell you? Well, let’s see. Bruno Heller, the creator and showrunner of ROME, is writing his pilot script for the Corlys Velaryon series. That one started out as NINE VOYAGES, but now we’re calling it THE SEA SNAKE, since we wanted to avoid having two shows with numbers in the title. The other one TEN THOUSAND SHIPS, the Nymeria series. Amanda Segel, our showrunner, has delivered a couple drafts of that one, and we are forging ahead. The third of the live action shows is the Dunk & Egg series, helmed by Steve Conrad. My team and I have had some great sessions with Steve and his team, and we really hit it off. He’s determined to do a faithful adaptation of the stories, which is exactly what I want; these characters and stories are very precious to me. The first season will be an adaptation of the first novella, “The Hedge Knight.” Contrary to what you may have read on line, the show will not be called DUNK & EGG, which could be mistaken for a sitcom by viewers unfamiliar with the stories. We’re leaning toward A KNIGHT OF THE SEVEN KINGDOMS for the series title, though THE HEDGE KNIGHT has its partisans as well.

Over on the animated side… well, I am not allowed to talk about most of what’s happening, except to say that things are moving very fast, and I love love love some of the concept art I am seeing. And.. wait, come to think of it, the news leaked several months ago that one of the animated shows would be set in Yi Ti. That’s true. Our working title is THE GOLDEN EMPIRE, and we have a great young writer on that one too, and I think the art and animation is just going to be beautiful. I would tell you more if I could. I don’t think I can say a word about the other animated shows. Not yet.

So… there is lots going on.

And HOUSE OF THE DRAGON is coming soon. That’s what you will see first.

And me? I will continue to work with the writers and showrunners and directors and producers on all these shows. Plus ROADMARKS for HBO, and DARK WINDS for AMC, and WILD CARDS for UCP and Peacock. And NIGHT OF THE COOTERS should be finished this month.

And in addition to all that, let me say one again, yes, I am still working on WINDS OF WINTER.

[QuickTidal]

I accepted this a long time ago. And quite frankly, my interest in finishing the series is lower than anything and GRRM has joined the pile with Lynch and Rothfuss as authors I'll never give money to again (not just becuase they have failed to deliver their sequels in a timely manner...life happens...I get it....but also the declining quality of the more recent books in all three series is also a big factor).

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 10 March 2022 - 04:33 PM

[Imperial Historian]

QuickTidal, on 10 March 2022 - 04:32 PM, said:

I accepted this a long time ago. And quite frankly, my interest in finishing the series is lower than anything and GRRM has joined the pile with Lynch and Rothfuss as authors I'll never give money to again (not just becuase they have failed to deliver their sequels in a timely manner...life happens...I get it....but also the declining quality of the more recent books in all three series is also a big factor).

Have you looked at that stormlight archive book you swore you'd never buy recently QT

I'll read the latest books from all those 3 and probably enjoy, but I've given up expecting them and it will be a pleasant surprise if they turn up.

[QuickTidal]

Imperial Historian, on 10 March 2022 - 04:44 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 10 March 2022 - 04:32 PM, said:

I accepted this a long time ago. And quite frankly, my interest in finishing the series is lower than anything and GRRM has joined the pile with Lynch and Rothfuss as authors I'll never give money to again (not just becuase they have failed to deliver their sequels in a timely manner...life happens...I get it....but also the declining quality of the more recent books in all three series is also a big factor).

Have you looked at that stormlight archive book you swore you'd never buy recently QT

That's different as Sando is a machine who always delivers his books and then some, for good or ill. So even if I don't like one as much as the others, he still delivered it in a timely manner.

[Tiste Simeon]

Is there anyone left who actually expects the Winds of Winter to ever be punished?

[amphibian]

He saying he's made a series of decisions to the effect that Project A is as important as Project B, C, D, and so on.

What he's actually done is shove Project A down *below* C, D, E, and so on. That's his life, his works, so he gets to do it. However, he's not being honest about it even in the post where he's somewhat trying to be honest about it.

I'm of the opinion that if he finishes ASoIaF quickly, the other projects get easier to handle and he'd be easily financially able to hire a production partner that he truly gets along with to handle much of the rest of the Hollywood stuff for/with him to let him take on a smaller workload he can dedicate more time to. Producing movies or tv series is to deal in smoke and mirrors constantly with lots of disappointment and failed projects. That's a given, yet he's charging in there and trying to get these going despite not having the power to really make them happen.

I'm bailing on the main series and his future works. He luckily has enough money to retire as long as he wants, so that's nice. However, it would have been nice if he finished the main series before pissing away all the goodwill he had with me.