[Gorefest]

I assume that was to clearly make the parallels with the War of the Roses. It is not as if he was trying to hide this and sneakily moved it in. He has said from the very beginning that the Wart of the Roses was a major inspiration for the series. I'd see that more as an homage or a clever writer's trick (have people associate the intended SoIaF families with the historical narritive, so any subsequent plot twists will hit extra hard) than a lack of inspiration for family names.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 26 November 2018 - 05:08 PM

[Gabriele]

Gorefest, on 26 November 2018 - 02:24 PM, said:

I'm still hoping that the TV show and the books will go completely separate ways, in which case I'm definitely still very intrigued in the last couple of books. I found that AFFC and ADWD held up better upon a reread. there is also a fan-made mix of the books ("Ball of Beasts" I think it is called) where they have merged the two books again so you get all the points of views in chronological order instead of split out across the two books. Might be more palatable reading it that way.

Amen about the TV show. I stopped watching that piece of turd poo halfway into season 4, but I've followed the discussions well enough to see that is has further detoriated. It's probably dinosaur poo by now. I really hope GRRM has a better ending than Dany and Jon hooking up like the trailers for the next season seem to imply. That would be introducing Mills and Boon romances into a great Fantasy series. I'm waiting patiently - at least I'm trying that patience thing - for Winds of Winter. And if it will never appear, I'll make up my own ending in my mind. I'm certainly not going to take the one those scriptscrewers will come up with for canon.

[Gabriele]

Gorefest, on 26 November 2018 - 05:08 PM, said:

I assume that was to clearly make the parallels with the War of the Roses. It is not as if he was trying to hide this and sneakily moved it in. He has said from the very beginning that the Wart of the Roses was a major inspiration for the series. I'd see that more as an homage or a clever writer's trick (have people associate the intended SoIaF families with the historical narritive, so any subsequent plot twists will hit extra hard) than a lack of inspiration for family names.

I have a lot of fun hunting down those historical connections. I like the books of Guy Gavriel Kay for the same reason.

(I'm doing something like that in my own epic Fantasy Monster-in-progress, which is sort of based on 12th/13th century Europe with magic and without that Christian stuff.)

[QuickTidal]

Gorefest, on 26 November 2018 - 05:08 PM, said:

I assume that was to clearly make the parallels with the War of the Roses. It is not as if he was trying to hide this and sneakily moved it in. He has said from the very beginning that the Wart of the Roses was a major inspiration for the series. I'd see that more as an homage or a clever writer's trick (have people associate the intended SoIaF families with the historical narritive, so any subsequent plot twists will hit extra hard) than a lack of inspiration for family names.

It needn't be that blatant. It really needn't be.

[Werthead]

Quote

The Lancasters became the Lannisters.

Well, the name clearly came from there, and there are some similarities of character, but not really 1:1 correlations (so there's a little of Edward IV in Robert Baratheon but also a little in Robb Stark, and there's a bit of Henry VIII in both Robert and Aegon IV).

The "it's the Wars of the Roses with the serial numbers filed off" is really not that true. The origins, course and outcome of the war in the books is completely different from the Wars of the Roses (most notably that the Starks and Lannisters are not releated at all whilst the Yorks and Lancasters were and the way the war ended was completely different; there is no Henry VII waiting in the wings in ASoIaF).

Quote

Amen about the TV show. I stopped watching that piece of turd poo halfway into season 4, but I've followed the discussions well enough to see that is has further detoriated. It's probably dinosaur poo by now.

Indeed. By Season 7 the TV show has become the worst kind of fanfiction, self-contradictory, illogical BS. The second they ran out of GRRM's material they started getting into trouble, most notably with dialogue, and as they moved deliberately away from the outline GRRM gave them, the logic and coherence of the show kind of collapsed. Season 7 was mostly a farcical mess. I do not have high hopes of the final season fixing things.

[QuickTidal]

Werthead, on 26 November 2018 - 06:32 PM, said:

Quote

The Lancasters became the Lannisters.

Well, the name clearly came from there, and there are some similarities of character, but not really 1:1 correlations (so there's a little of Edward IV in Robert Baratheon but also a little in Robb Stark, and there's a bit of Henry VIII in both Robert and Aegon IV).

The "it's the Wars of the Roses with the serial numbers filed off" is really not that true. The origins, course and outcome of the war in the books is completely different from the Wars of the Roses (most notably that the Starks and Lannisters are not releated at all whilst the Yorks and Lancasters were and the way the war ended was completely different; there is no Henry VII waiting in the wings in ASoIaF).

I mean you can dance around the details all you like, but that doesn't change the fact that I can find a slew of 1:1 character correlation for at the very least behaviour, if not exacting events or actions to history.

The thrust of point stands. GRRM was not reinventing the wheel, or giving everyone something explicitly new by re-skinning historical people and events with fantasy polish. And it's not just the Wars of the Roses....he's got the abduction and rape of Lucretia in there, a mad king, Medici Banking, The Glencoe Massacre, a big wall to keep people out who live north, Celts, vikings, and Ancient Rome allegories in there, ect.

I agree with Gorefest that using history to hang fantasy on is fine....but put more effort in.

[Werthead]

QuickTidal, on 26 November 2018 - 07:00 PM, said:

I mean you can dance around the details all you like, but that doesn't change the fact that I can find a slew of 1:1 character correlation for at the very least behaviour, if not exacting events or actions to history.

Can you?

The Wars of the Roses was a multi-generational war lasting 30 years and stemming from warring dynastic claims going back generations between three tightly-related families (Lancaster, York, Tudor). The War of the Five Kings is a relatively brief (under 2 year) war stemming from an extremely recent dynastic issue (the Queen boinking her own brother) and is fought between eight major families only some of which have close ties with one another.

The Wars of the Roses did have some involvement from the Scots, but the Scots were not, as far as can be told, ice zombies returning from the dead to destroy the realm of men in response for crimes committed thousands of years earlier.

There is no analogue of Towton in ASoIaF (just as there is no analogue of the Blackwater in real history). There is no analogue of Warwick the Kingmaker in ASoIaF, who was kind of a major deal in that conflict. Stannis's closest analogue is probably Margaret Beaufort (pious, serious, unrelenting in mien) but they also have pretty massive differences (Stannis didn't give birth to the future king of Westeros at the age of 13, as far as we can tell).

The "feel" of the Wars of the Roses is there and in technology there's certainly a correlation, but there's also strong elements influenced from other fantasy (particularly Dune, the Lyonesse Trilogy and Memory, Sorrow and Thorn), from other historical periods (the Roman Empire in particular) as well. It's absolutely not the Wars of the Roses with the serial numbers filed off.

Quote

The thrust of point stands. GRRM was not reinventing the wheel, or giving everyone something explicitly new by re-skinning historical people and events with fantasy polish. And it's not just the Wars of the Roses....he's got the abduction and rape of Lucretia in there, a mad king, Medici Banking, The Glencoe Massacre, a big wall to keep people out who live north, Celts, vikings, and Ancient Rome allegories in there, ect.

I agree with Gorefest that using history to hang fantasy on is fine....but put more effort in.

Every fantasy author does this to some extent. The Rohirrim are just "Vikings with horses", which Tolkien thought was fine. Joe Abercrombie has written novels which are effectively The Searcher in Fantasyland and The Mafia in Fantasyland. The Chain of Dogs is a light reskinning of the Anabasis by Xenophon (and Anomander Rake is a rebooted cover version - albeit a superior one - of Elric of Melniobone, and there's more than a few homages to The Black Company in there). Martin hews closer to his inspirations than some, but not to the degree you are suggesting.

[worry]

The books, including AFFC and ADWD, are heads above the show. I like the show, even in its waning seasons, and I care how it ends like I do anything I've enjoyed -- and I don't necessarily think the final books will ever soar as high as the first three books -- but I'm emphatically more interested in GRRM's finale than Benioff & Weiss's.

[QuickTidal]

Werthead, on 26 November 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 November 2018 - 07:00 PM, said:

I mean you can dance around the details all you like, but that doesn't change the fact that I can find a slew of 1:1 character correlation for at the very least behaviour, if not exacting events or actions to history.

Can you?

The fact that a whole slew of websites have already done the work for me means I needn't type it out here and do your googling for you, but it's pretty freely available the easy comparisons. Start with the various ones I mentioned already.

Werthead, on 26 November 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 November 2018 - 07:00 PM, said:

The thrust of point stands. GRRM was not reinventing the wheel, or giving everyone something explicitly new by re-skinning historical people and events with fantasy polish. And it's not just the Wars of the Roses....he's got the abduction and rape of Lucretia in there, a mad king, Medici Banking, The Glencoe Massacre, a big wall to keep people out who live north, Celts, vikings, and Ancient Rome allegories in there, ect.

I agree with Gorefest that using history to hang fantasy on is fine....but put more effort in.

Every fantasy author does this to some extent. The Rohirrim are just "Vikings with horses", which Tolkien thought was fine. Joe Abercrombie has written novels which are effectively The Searcher in Fantasyland and The Mafia in Fantasyland. The Chain of Dogs is a light reskinning of the Anabasis by Xenophon (and Anomander Rake is a rebooted cover version - albeit a superior one - of Elric of Melniobone, and there's more than a few homages to The Black Company in there). Martin hews closer to his inspirations than some, but not to the degree you are suggesting.

None of these examples, as singular homages with vaster, greater works, are the more complete and hewing historical cribbing that Martin gets into with his series....and would you care to get into all the stuff he cribbed from Tad Williams MS&T while we are at it?

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 26 November 2018 - 08:11 PM

[Mentalist]

QuickTidal, on 26 November 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

Is anyone else in my boat? That I no longer care what the last couple of books says? The tv show will finish the series for me. I have almost nil interest in the final books since AFFC and ADWD burned me HARD.

I didn't bother with the show, and I might come back to the books at some point (no launch day purchases, though, I don't think).

Part of me still hopes GRRM will turn around and make R+L J thing NOT happen, which would be pretty great.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 26 November 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

... hewing historical cribbing that Martin gets into with his series....and would you care to get into all the stuff he cribbed from Tad Williams MS&T while we are at it?

Wait.... wut?

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Werthead, on 26 November 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 November 2018 - 07:00 PM, said:

I mean you can dance around the details all you like, but that doesn't change the fact that I can find a slew of 1:1 character correlation for at the very least behaviour, if not exacting events or actions to history.

Can you?

The Wars of the Roses was a multi-generational war lasting 30 years and stemming from warring dynastic claims going back generations between three tightly-related families (Lancaster, York, Tudor). The War of the Five Kings is a relatively brief (under 2 year) war stemming from an extremely recent dynastic issue (the Queen boinking her own brother) and is fought between eight major families only some of which have close ties with one another.

Bear with me if you would please - the Wars of the Roses is my "thing".

The Tudors were only vaguely related to the royal line by the second marriage of Catherine of Valois to essentially a nobody from Wales (Owen Tudor) - there were a lot of people had better and closer claims to the throne than the Tudors. It's arguably nitpicky but they really weren't closely related (and that's why they're interesting and precocious, and the eventual outcome is so fascinating)

Quote

There is no analogue of Towton in ASoIaF (just as there is no analogue of the Blackwater in real history). There is no analogue of Warwick the Kingmaker in ASoIaF, who was kind of a major deal in that conflict. Stannis's closest analogue is probably Margaret Beaufort (pious, serious, unrelenting in mien) but they also have pretty massive differences (Stannis didn't give birth to the future king of Westeros at the age of 13, as far as we can tell).

Agreed on Towton, but if you don't restrict it to just the War of the Five Kings and go back to Robert's Rebellion, I would say there's a good argument Tywin is Warwick. It's not exact but it's there. If memory serves, the Lannisters come into the Aerys/Robert fight very late on Robert's side after Tywin falls out with Aerys (Warwick changed sides and allied to Margaret of Anjou late in the game after becoming disillusioned with Edward IV). Tywin's daughter marries the proposed king after being refused a previous match - Edward IV forbade his brother George of Clarence to marry Isabel Neville, Warwick's daughter - so Warwick had them married when he defected to Margaret. His second daughter Anne then ends up married to Richard III.

The Baratheon brothers are a fairly good parallel for the three brothers of the House of York. The Robert of the first book is late-game Edward IV (fat, whoring etc.) whereas the young Robert of Robert's Rebellion fits too - tall, imposingly built, gifted battle commander etc., Renly is George of Clarence (affable, shallow, opportunistic) and Stannis is Richard of Gloucester (particularly if you're a subscriber to the "Richard murdered the Princes in the Tower" theory) - Richard was deeply pious and also entirely ruthless, but did plenty that was "for the good of the realm/common weal" as well. He also loses his only child (Edward of Middleham).

They're maybe not 1:1 but some of it is very close. I agree it isn't an exact War of the Roses with different names - that was never what I said.

With regards your list of other fantasy examples - I do wonder if they would bother me more if I read them in the form of a world book in one or two sittings. Martin's felt more egregious in that form (because it was all coming thick and fast) than it possibly is. But whichever Aegon it was (if it was an Aegon, might have been a Maegor?) who got fat and temperamental and had six wives still really irks me. That would have taken no effort to alter.

Having said all that though, a lot of it is interpretation. I've seen just as many people state Robert is actually Henry VIII, or that Cersei is Margaret of Anjou (although I think that might be more to do with the assertion that Joffrey is Edward of Lancaster....) etc.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 26 November 2018 - 09:16 PM

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 26 November 2018 - 08:39 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 November 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

... hewing historical cribbing that Martin gets into with his series....and would you care to get into all the stuff he cribbed from Tad Williams MS&T while we are at it?

Wait.... wut?

I feel like I’ve typed it out before...but yeah, it’s...um...bad, and worse on the back of the fact that he claimed MS&T influenced him to write asoiafto begin with.

I’ll go find the comparison list tomorrow and post it for you to see.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Off the top of my head, Miriamele passing as a boy = Arya. And evil peeps from the Norf' bringing a magical Winter.

EDIT: Found this list https://ostenard.com...rrow-and-thorn/

Quote

1) A high-born girl named (M)arya disguises herself as a boy, and learns to fight with a sword as she travels throughout the lands. She travels from one end of the world to the other, fleeing danger everywhere, while disguised as a boy. Despite the fact that many people see through her flimsy ‘disguise’, she keeps wearing it.

2) Two princely brothers who hate each other fight over the royal throne. The country is torn apart as various factions choose sides. But the side that plays dirty will win…

3) A red-robed advisor to the new king convinces the king that he needs to sacrifice his hated younger brother; this sacrifice, the red-robed advisor says, will make the kingdom whole once more.

4) A tailed star appears in the sky, portending doom/change.

5) Feuding brothers named Elias/Elyas and Josua appear in the story.

6) Strange, otherworldly creatures who live in the far north appear, and although they have been inactive for centuries, they plot to take over the world. They have been exiled at the northern edge of the world for many years, but will soon take it all back, manchild.

7) It is foretold of the coming of an unusual winter which will last a very long time, at the same time as the otherworldly invasion. Only the northerners take these old legends seriously. Everyone else laughs at such absurd tales. But the people of the north never forget.

8) A very unusual throne lies at the center of the human dispute for the kingdom, but it is only a distraction for the real conflict.

9) A major noble character, a close relative of the king, loses his hand.

10) A wolf character plays a major role.

11) A character that is the ‘Hand’ figures prominently.

12) A slender sword named ‘Needle’/’Naidel’ is wielded by a main character, who can’t use a heavier sword.

13) Everybody laughs at the idea of ice giants in the north… until they see them for themselves.

14) Young, noble children are cruelly thrust out into the cold, cruel world by evil adults, slowly learning to fend for themselves as they grow into young men and women.

15) A crown made to resemble antlers appears as a plot element.

16) A very short yet intelligent character has a betrothal as part of his storyline. But he is soon put on trial, where the penalty is death, and everyone seems set on killing him… even his own lover.

17) The story begins shortly before the death of the old king, whose reign was peaceful, and kept the kingdoms safe. The king brought peace and prosperity to the lands, but now his death has thrown the empire into conflict, with factions fighting.

18) The Children of the Dawn/Forest, who once lived throughout the realm, but who are now living in hiding, will have a part to play. They appear to be at odds with the otherworldly creatures in the far north.

19) A character whose name is Snow(lock), who is forced to journey into the north, is a main character. He appears to be a nobody, but his secret lineage is important. No one knows the truth…

20) A guilt-tormented knight, Sir Camaris/Ser Connington, spends years in exile in the south, only to return, where he is at last revealed as still being alive.

21) A major character lives thousands of miles from the rest of the other main characters, for over a thousand pages having no real interaction with the main group. But eventually, Danaerys/Tiamak will have a role to play.

22) The series was meant to be a trilogy, but got out of hand.

23) A major young male character likes to climb his castle’s walls and turrets, and can do so with ease. Eventually, he will be forced to leave his childhood home, no longer able to climb the castle’s walls and turrets.

24) This same character is plagued by prophetic, spooky dreams.

25) A new god, the Red God, demands blood sacrifice. His adherents are more than willing to do the Red God’s bidding, no matter how awful the sacrifice is. Once blood is spilled, the spell is created, and shadowy figures appear…

26) A servant of evil wearing a hound’s head helmet.

27) An important character of very short size. 26&27 thanks to @Max_Hallam

28) A fierce people of nomadic grasslanders.

29) Birds are used as messengers between intellectuals.

30) A battle on a frozen lake (not yet canonical in ASoIaF but still).
28-30 thanks to @paulrogerson

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 27 November 2018 - 04:52 AM

[Morgoth]

Werthead, on 26 November 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

The Wars of the Roses did have some involvement from the Scots, but the Scots were not, as far as can be told, ice zombies returning from the dead to destroy the realm of men in response for crimes committed thousands of years earlier.

I'm pretty sure the Scots would disagree.

[Tsundoku]

@Whispy
I'm pretty sure 6 is in like, every fantasy story. Ever.

22 could also describe WoT.

28 is in 50% of fantasy stories.

[Gorefest]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 27 November 2018 - 04:46 AM, said:

Off the top of my head, Miriamele passing as a boy = Arya. And evil peeps from the Norf' bringing a magical Winter.

EDIT: Found this list https://ostenard.com...rrow-and-thorn/

Well, don't leave us hanging in suspense. How does the Tad Williams tale end?

[Tsundoku]

Gorefest, on 27 November 2018 - 11:57 AM, said:

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 27 November 2018 - 04:46 AM, said:

Off the top of my head, Miriamele passing as a boy = Arya. And evil peeps from the Norf' bringing a magical Winter.

EDIT: Found this list https://ostenard.com...rrow-and-thorn/

Well, don't leave us hanging in suspense. How does the Tad Williams tale end?

I guess you could say it hasn't finished yet either. Another thing GRRM ripped off ...

[Abyss]

Tsundoku, on 27 November 2018 - 10:51 AM, said:

@Whispy
I'm pretty sure 6 is in like, every fantasy story. Ever.

22 could also describe WoT.

28 is in 50% of fantasy stories.

Even so, it's quite the list.
I hadn't realised that, tho to be fair i read MST years before SIF, and also, i actually liked SIF, whereas MST, not so much.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 27 November 2018 - 02:38 PM, said:

Tsundoku, on 27 November 2018 - 10:51 AM, said:

@Whispy
I'm pretty sure 6 is in like, every fantasy story. Ever.

22 could also describe WoT.

28 is in 50% of fantasy stories.

Even so, it's quite the list.

I realized a few while I was reading MS&T, but not the full extent until I looked it up later. This would not be such a thing to bring up if GRRM hadn't himself stated how much inspiration he took from reading MS&T.

Also, #22 : "Meant to be a trilogy but got out of hand is"...a bit of a misleading quote....TO GREEN ANGEL TOWER is in fact one book, and in some countries it's published as one (I assume with 3.5pt type and on onionskin paper), it was split only because traditional paper publishing has a hard time printing and gluing it. So it was split into volumes.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 27 November 2018 - 03:14 PM