[WinterPhoenix]

So having read book one of HoC (I'm still only at the very beginning of book two, Cold Iron, as a reference for any one who answers in relation to possible spoilers), I have a couple of questions (well one question really with cascading consequences) about dates, specifically the year as it relates to the events of GotM and DG.

The year at the beginning of the book is 1159 Burn's Sleep, this then is obviously the year in which Karsa undertakes his journey to Silver Lake. Having gone back and skim read again (twice) the pages detailing the trip he, Delum and Bairoth make through the lands of the Rathyd and the Sunyd and down the Bone Pass to Silver Lake, I can see no reason why the time span of the journey be measured in any length of time beyond weeks. The very latest then that Karsa's arrival at Silver Lake could be is 1160 Burn's Sleep - we must assume it is still 1159 though, we are not explicitly told otherwise. Now, Karsa's ill-fated and short-lived raiding party is not long in being curtailed, neither is his incarceration at the hands of the Nathii a very long affair, in fact he and Torvald Nom are hitched to their wagon and setting out on their journey to the Otataral Mines in a span of days - once again we must assume it is 1159-1160 and that assumption is supported by the map at the front of the book which purports to be a representation of Northern Genebackis circa 1160. Somewhere between Silver Lake and Culvern, however, Nom informs Orlong that the talk amongst their Malazan captors is the fall of Pale, the sorcery enfilade and the retreat of Moon's Spawn - having reread the first 3 books and NoK recently, this felt wrong to me. Sure enough a quick perusal of GoM shows me that the fall of Pale occurs in 1163 Burn's sleep, this is a discrepancy of 3 or 4 years.

Now, I am not happy to simply assume that far more time has gone by off-page than seems to be the case, this is hard to believe prior to Karsa's blackout plagued journey to the Malyn Sea and their sojourn in the 'Shattered Warren' anyway and in any event to do so presents insurmountable issues of chronology. That is to say Karsa's eventual arrival in Seven Cities is obviously some time prior to the arrival of the whirlwind, how many weeks, months or years before is the crux of my question. We are given no clear indication of the length of time the journey from Silver Lake to Seven Cities actually takes - this seems deliberate, in that the reader must needs share in Karsa's inability to accurately judge the passage of time - however, it seems safe to assume the journey can be quantified in months not years and thus his arrival in Seven Cities is in 1160 or 1159 - at this point there is still no explicit indication of one year ending. This time span of 4 or 5 years prior to the rebellion seems correct, he has obviously spent a considerable amount of time in Raraku with Leoman and Sha'ik before he meets Felisin and Heboric in DG. There seems to be an issue then with the fall of Pale, and thus the entire timeline for GotM. If Pale falls in 1159-60 in time for Torvald to speak of the sorcerous clash with Karsa then the events of GotM must either occur approximately 4 years before the rebellion in Seven Cities, or the rebellion itself must occur 4 years earlier than DG explicitly makes clear - neither outcome makes much sense at all really. If, however, it falls in 1163 as illustrated in GotM then Karsa's Malazan captors cannot possibly relay such impossible info to Torvald in the first place, unless it has taken 4 years for Karsa to make it to Silver Lake after setting out from his village - which again is clearly not the case. The fall of Pale predates the rebellion in Seven Cities by a year at max, else the continuity of GotM and DG is in tatters, and it seems obvious to me that the intention in the narrative is that Karsa has been in Seven Cities for 4 or 5 years before the rebellion occurs, logic then, dictates that his journey west across Northern Genebackis does indeed take place around 1159-60, surely then Pale cannot have fallen? Have I made a colossal and rather embarrassing error? Or is this a known error within the continuity itself? I wish an abrupt end to my current confusion.

[worry]

The numbers of the years don't matter as much as the feelings associated with them.

[WinterPhoenix]

I would argue that one cannot successfully associate feelings with any year, when said years are pitching and yawing across the ocean of time; such potent disregard for the proprietary rights of chronology, rendered moot are my feelings and confusion rules above all else

EDIT: I am sorry about the verbal diarrhoea of my first post, reading it back it is rather a bit much for what is in reality a very simple question.

This post has been edited by WinterPhoenix: 19 December 2015 - 02:41 AM

[Andorion]

To clarify, your question is based on something the Malazans told Torvald about Pale?

[WinterPhoenix]

Yeah basically to condense the question. Somewhere between Silver Lake and Culvern when Karsa first wakes up, Torvald tells Karsa that the talk among the Malazans is the fall of Pale, the sorcery enfilade and the retreat of Moon's Spawn, essentially this is impossible yes? The Siege of Pale ends in 1163 per GotM, at that point in HoC it is still 1159 if we go by what we've explicitly been told in the narrative, perhaps 1160 at a stretch. It makes perfect sense for it to be 1159-60, because that gives Karsa 4-5 years in Seven Cities before the whirlwind rebellion in 1164. If it were already 1163 at that point then a) 4 years have passed off page since Karsa sets out from his village and b ) Karsa is only in Seven Cities for a few months before the start of the rebellion and his encountering Felisin and Heboric - neither of which make much sense. The only alternatives are that the siege of Pale actually did end in 1160 - which throws out the timeline of GotM and everything thereafter -, a chronological error on the part of the author, or a mistake I have somehow made and have yet to see.

This post has been edited by WinterPhoenix: 19 December 2015 - 03:26 AM

[worry]

 WinterPhoenix, on 19 December 2015 - 02:40 AM, said:

I would argue that one cannot successfully associate feelings with any year, when said years are pitching and yawing across the ocean of time; such potent disregard for the proprietary rights of chronology, rendered moot are my feelings and confusion rules above all else

This post is 1492 all over again.

[D'rek]

 WinterPhoenix, on 19 December 2015 - 01:58 AM, said:

Or is this a known error within the continuity itself?

Yup, it's basically just a goof. Erikson openly admitted he messed up the timelines a bit in places.

In this case, best to just average it out a bit. Have Karsa spend about 2 years in Raraku, and handwave away the talk of Pale's fall as incorrect rumours (obviously that wasn't the author's original intent, but we have to make do as best we can).

[Andorion]

Firstly, I don't think you should bother too much about the timing of Karsa's arrival in 7 Cities, as to do it he passed through the other warren and time can be extremely strange in warrens.

Regarding the GotM time conflict I would say that 1163 B.S. is quite correct for Pale. If you compare the later books they are consistent with that date.

One easy way to explain it would be to assume the Torvald incident was an error.

But, and I don't know if you have picked up on this, but there maybe something strange about the Laederon plateau itself.

Icarium was involved with the early history of the Teblor. Icarium is involved with time, The passage from Laederon to Silver LAke may not be as straightforward as you think.

Quote

‘ “I led the families that survived. Down from the high lands. Through the broken veins that bled beneath the sun ...” Broken veins?’
‘Ice,’ Delum said.
‘Bleeding beneath the sun, aye. “We were so few. Our blood was cloudy and would grow cloudier still. I saw the need to shatter what remained. For the T’lan Imass were still close and much agitated and inclined to continue their indiscriminate slaughter.”‘ Karsa scowled. ‘T’lan Imass? I do not know those two words.’
‘Nor I,’ Delum replied. ‘A rival tribe, perhaps. Read on, Karsa Orlong. Your eye is quicker than mine.’
‘“And so I sundered husband from wife. Child from parent. Brother from sister. I fashioned new families and then sent them away. Each to a different place. I proclaimed the Laws of Isolation, as given us by Icarium whom we had once sheltered and whose heart grew vast with grief upon seeing what had become of us. The Laws of Isolation would be our salvation, clearing the blood and strengthening our children. To all who follow and to all who shall read these words, this is my justification—”‘
‘These words trouble me, Karsa Orlong.’
Karsa glanced back at Delum. ‘Why? They signify nothing of us. They are an elder’s ravings. Too many words – to have carved all these letters would have taken years, and only a madman would do such a thing. A madman, who was buried here, alone, driven out by his people—’
Delum’s gaze sharpened on Karsa. ‘Driven out? Yes, I believe you are correct, Warleader. Read more – let us hear his justification, and so judge for ourselves.’
Shrugging, Karsa returned his attention to the stone wall. ‘ “To survive, we must forget. So Icarium told us. Those things that we had come to, those things that softened us. We must abandon them. We must dismantle our ...” I know not that word, “and shatter each and every stone, leaving no evidence of what we had been. We must bum our ...” another word I do not know, “and leave naught but ash. We must forget our history and seek only our most ancient of legends. Legends that told of a time when we lived simply. In the forests. Hunting, culling fish from the rivers, raising horses. When our laws were those of the raider, the slayer, when all was measured by the sweep of a sword. Legends that spoke of feuds, of murders and rapes. We must return to those terrible times. To isolate our streams of blood, to weave new, smaller nets of kinship. New threads must be born of rape, for only with violence would they remain rare occurrences, and random. To cleanse our blood, we must forget all that we were, yet find what we had once been—”‘

HoC MMPB 81-82

Isolation may not have simply meant isolation in space but also in time. There maybe an entirely different time in the plateau. So what is 1159 in Karsa's village maybe 1163 in Silver Lake.

In GotM, chapter 1:

Quote

Rigga's fingers snagged tighter in the girl's hair. 'Across the sea the Empress has driven her knife into virgin soil. The blood now comes in a tide and it'll sweep you under, child, if you're not careful.

This is 1161 and Laseen has just invaded Genebackis. Thus Silver Lake in 1163 has a well entrenched Malazan presence, and Pale falls, and Torvald is told. Were it 1159, there would be no Malazan presence there. So the Teblor moved out of a different timezone when they left the plateau

[Andorion]

Also I should probably tell you that on the forum there is a running joke - "The Timeline does not matter!"

Seriosuly though, the more long term timelines are very difficult to figure out

[WinterPhoenix]

For sure I am ready and willing to believe that once he has entered the shattered warren it could be any time once he turns up on the Seven Cities coast, the assertion of Pale's demise occurs before this happens though. I too think it's safe to assume that the siege of Pale ended in 1163, so this leads to your interesting theory about the Laederon Plateau. On a third skim read of those pages that detail their journey to Silver Lake which I did last night I did wonder whether perhaps Laederon existed in some other time, it certainly has its merits as an explanation.

Honestly though I think there is enough evidence to assume that it is supposed to be 1159 across the board, the map of Nothern Genebackis in my copy of HoC is circa 1160 and titled 'Post-Malazan conquest', from this it seems fairly clear to me that at least in writing HoC Erikson's intention was that the Malazan conquest of Genebackis was well under way in 1159, this obviously doesn't really fit with what we hear in GotM.

All that being said I agree that the timeline is not the be all and end all, I just don't like feeling as though I've somehow missed some important point and that's why it seems as though the timeline's are conflicting. If it's an actual conflict, the quality of the stories is enough that I can just ignore it, or use D'rek's suggestion.

[LinearPhilosopher]

and here i thought i was in for a thread filled with funny dating stories. Dissapointed

[WinterPhoenix]

I would be too, expecting funny stories only to be assailed by my interminable calendar rants

This post has been edited by WinterPhoenix: 19 December 2015 - 03:51 PM

[WinterPhoenix]

 worry, on 19 December 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

 WinterPhoenix, on 19 December 2015 - 02:40 AM, said:

I would argue that one cannot successfully associate feelings with any year, when said years are pitching and yawing across the ocean of time; such potent disregard for the proprietary rights of chronology, rendered moot are my feelings and confusion rules above all else

This post is 1492 all over again.

Somehow I managed to miss this post, I'm not sure I understand the reference, in context at any rate.

[Gorefest]

Yeah, unfortunately timeline continuity is not one of Erikson's strong points. There are a few more glaring errors in later books that don't add up, and Erikson is aware of it as well. It's a bit of a shame, but we just cover it up with the mantle of love.

[Itwæs Nom]

 WinterPhoenix, on 19 December 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

 worry, on 19 December 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

 WinterPhoenix, on 19 December 2015 - 02:40 AM, said:

I would argue that one cannot successfully associate feelings with any year, when said years are pitching and yawing across the ocean of time; such potent disregard for the proprietary rights of chronology, rendered moot are my feelings and confusion rules above all else

This post is 1492 all over again.

Somehow I managed to miss this post, I'm not sure I understand the reference, in context at any rate.

think of it like it was a whelp

[Gorefest]

 WinterPhoenix, on 19 December 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

worry said:

This post is 1492 all over again.

Somehow I managed to miss this post, I'm not sure I understand the reference, in context at any rate.

Columbus crossing the ocean to discover America.

[WinterPhoenix]

 Gorefest, on 19 December 2015 - 04:05 PM, said:

 WinterPhoenix, on 19 December 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

worry said:

This post is 1492 all over again.

Somehow I managed to miss this post, I'm not sure I understand the reference, in context at any rate.

Columbus crossing the ocean to discover America.

Oh I understand the significance of the year, 'in the year of our lord 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue' an all that jazz, not sure how my post was '1492 all over again', however.

EDIT: Now I am aware of these timeline errors, I'm sure I can simply ignore them, or as Gorefest says, 'cover them up with the mantle of love'. Damn good stories thus far, and I finally actually own all the books!

This post has been edited by WinterPhoenix: 19 December 2015 - 04:38 PM

[worry]

It's a feeling.

[Manderley]

I'm about half way through HoC. Is it correct to assume that all war councils in both the Shaik and the Malazan camps occur almost immediately after the events of MoI? Seems obvious but a couple of passages seemed to suggest years have passed since that time?

[WinterPhoenix]

 Manderley, on 28 December 2015 - 07:42 AM, said:

I'm about half way through HoC. Is it correct to assume that all war councils in both the Shaik and the Malazan camps occur almost immediately after the events of MoI? Seems obvious but a couple of passages seemed to suggest years have passed since that time?

It's a matter of weeks perhaps a few months since the end of Deadhouse Gates, seeing as Adjunct Tavore's arrival is imminent (if not already occurred) by the end of that book. How closely the ends of DG and MOI sync up I am not 100% sure, but I believe it's safe to assume that they are relatively close in time, seeing as Duiker shows up at the bar in K'rul's old temple to tell the story of the Chain of Dogs to Picker, Blend, Paran and co after being resurrected 'off screen' as DG comes to an end.