[Egwene]

I deleted the following section from Triban Gnol's page on the Wiki:

While [[Brys Beddict]] was successfully defending the King from the assault by [[Rhulad Sengar]] during the invasion of [[Lether]] by the [[Tiste Edur]], Triban Gnol managed to poison the King's drink, killing him and his champion, who subsequently drank by the manipulation of the Errant the same poison.

The way I read the events (Midnight Tides, Chapter 25 and previous ones) Nefarias is the poisoner and the Errant only witnesses. There is mention of an older man being present at the duel who could be TG but I can't see any evidence that he was responsible for the poison. The Errant states some pages earlier that he does not need to do any pushing/pulling, that all he needs to do is witness.

What is your view?

[Andorion]

I think I agree. The eunuch poisoned the wine which he and the king then consumed. Brys consuming it was probably the result of the Errants nudge

[Gorefest]

Yeah, there was definitely no 'managed to poison the King's drink' going on, the king knew very well that he was drinking poison.

[Azath Housecat]

 Azath Housecat, on 08 December 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:

I thought it was Nifadas, too, but it was Triban Gnol

From RG, Chapter 15

As the door closed a second time, Triban Gnol stared down at his desk. Down into the box with its dislodged lid. Wherein sat a small, squat bottle. A third of its contents remaining.

Triban Gnol often drew satisfaction from the sight of it, the very knowledge of it when hidden within its box. He would recall pouring the contents into the vessel of wine from which he knew Ezgara Diskanar would drink, there on that last terrible day. In the throne room. Ezgara, and that pathetic First Eunuch. Nisall should have followed. Not Brys. No, anyone but Brys Beddict.

Regrettable, that.

[Puck]

MT nonetheless gives the impression that both the king and Nifadas knew the wine was poisoned. There's also the - distant - possibility that it was poisoned twice. Might explain why the Errant though there was nothing to do for him in regards to that. In any case, Triban Gnol gloating about it, even to himself, seems very much in-character for him, and he might think it was his work, but he can never know for sure. He poured poison into the wine. For all we know, Nifadas might have seen/found out and gotten the idea of dieing through poison from that to begin with.

This post has been edited by Puckstein: 08 December 2015 - 12:40 PM

[Egwene]

Thanks Tufty for digging that up

It could be a case of SE deliberately misleading the readers - I am changing the entries to reflect what we know and people can make up their own mind.

Thanks everyone

[Azath Housecat]

 Azath Housecat, on 08 December 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

 Azath Housecat, on 08 December 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

 Puckstein, on 08 December 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

MT nonetheless gives the impression that both the king and Nifadas knew the wine was poisoned. There's also the - distant - possibility that it was poisoned twice. Might explain why the Errant though there was nothing to do for him in regards to that. In any case, Triban Gnol gloating about it, even to himself, seems very much in-character for him, and he might think it was his work, but he can never know for sure. He poured poison into the wine. For all we know, Nifadas might have seen/found out and gotten the idea of dieing through poison from that to begin with.

Good points. SE ambiguity, lest we get complacent. I agree that the Ezgara Diskanar & Nifadas both knew the wine was poisoned. Nifadas didn't serve it until it was clear that there was no way out. The only hope left was Brys & even if he defeated Rhulad, he couldn't hold back the Edur army. The king didn't order Brys not to fight until after drinking the wine.

I think Erickson set up the scene to be a tip of the hat to Shakespeare. (If it's something so obvious that it's been discussed to death, plz don't beat up on a newbie). Without imitating Hamlet, SE included several structural elements leading to an equally tragic ending... a sword fight before the throne; poisoned wine is served; the king is poisoned; the protagonist is poisoned without knowing it until too late; several bodies are left in the midst of the stunned onlookers; the dead protagonist is carried out of the room; immediately there's a new claimant to the throne. The story and the specifics are quite different, but SE showed his appreciation.

This post has been edited by Azath Housecat: 08 December 2015 - 02:32 PM

[Gorefest]

I believe Puck once wrote a really good little treatise on that very subject, the Hamlet references, to illustrate the difference between epic fantasy (memories of ice) and 'classic' tragedy (midnight tides).

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 09 December 2015 - 07:23 AM

[theocean]

I never totally got that errents nudge thing. How does he actually infkuence the things to happen.

[Andorion]

 theocean, on 08 December 2015 - 09:22 PM, said:

I never totally got that errents nudge thing. How does he actually infkuence the things to happen.

Well, you are familiar with Oponn's prod and pull, right? Errant is like that only both aspects are unified in him. And as the series progresses we see that his nudges can be malevolent and possibly aimed at serving his own interests

[theocean]

 Andorion, on 09 December 2015 - 01:19 AM, said:

 theocean, on 08 December 2015 - 09:22 PM, said:

I never totally got that errents nudge thing. How does he actually infkuence the things to happen.

Well, you are familiar with Oponn's prod and pull, right? Errant is like that only both aspects are unified in him. And as the series progresses we see that his nudges can be malevolent and possibly aimed at serving his own interests

I mean can he compel or command like we see and hear envy and the sisters do? I just don't really see a direct push from him. You hear the errant nudge like you do oponns blessing but I can't remember a direct thing being controlled by him.

[Andorion]

 theocean, on 09 December 2015 - 01:24 AM, said:

 Andorion, on 09 December 2015 - 01:19 AM, said:

 theocean, on 08 December 2015 - 09:22 PM, said:

I never totally got that errents nudge thing. How does he actually infkuence the things to happen.

Well, you are familiar with Oponn's prod and pull, right? Errant is like that only both aspects are unified in him. And as the series progresses we see that his nudges can be malevolent and possibly aimed at serving his own interests

I mean can he compel or command like we see and hear envy and the sisters do? I just don't really see a direct push from him. You hear the errant nudge like you do oponns blessing but I can't remember a direct thing being controlled by him.

Traditionally the Errant has always acted from the shadows, influencing people's fate and content to leave it at that. But as you know he does start acting overtly From DoD onwards and it does not end well for him. If you follow his story arc ou will see that a lot of things went wrong for him towards the end of RG and this might have affected his sanity

[worry]

 theocean, on 09 December 2015 - 01:24 AM, said:

I mean can he compel or command like we see and hear envy and the sisters do? I just don't really see a direct push from him. You hear the errant nudge like you do oponns blessing but I can't remember a direct thing being controlled by him.

That's kind of the point.

[Egwene]

The way I see it, Errant and Oponn equal what we would call luck/bad luck and chance happenings. The nudges of Oponn and Errant are random, there is not necessarily rhyme or reason for them. You could call them whimsical.

For a direct involvement of Oponn... there are plenty of examples in Gardens of the Moon. One of the best is Rallick Nom lying in wait to kill Lady Simtal (Chapter 6). He hears Oponn's coin, there is a shift in his perception, he changes his mind even as he is about to pull the trigger and kills Simtal's lover instead of her.

The Errant's nudges work in a similar fashion.

[Azath Housecat]

 theocean, on 08 December 2015 - 09:22 PM, said:

I never totally got that errents nudge thing. How does he actually infkuence the things to happen.

There's a section with the Errant wandering around & reminiscing in Chapter 9 of RG. It doesn't explain how he nudged things, but it shows how his mindset developed as his power diminished and circumstances changed over time.

I agree with the comparison of Oponn & the Errant, except to me, the Errant's personality seems to be a factor in his nudges, where the Oponn twins are more objective, using dice, coins, etc. Maybe the Errant wasn't willing to rely on chance. He didn't want 50:50 odds that Brys would not drink the wine, but he couldn't make him drink it, so he loaded the dice— he nudged.

This post has been edited by Azath Housecat: 09 December 2015 - 12:50 PM

[theocean]

yea i think the twins were created to follow in the errants footsteps, or replace him in the new system. So they are very similiar. Just a weird concept for me to get what he ACTUALLY does when he nudges things.

[Abyss]

My version was that the Eunuch poisoned the wine at the King's order, anticipating an Edur victory, without any unfluence from the Errant, but that the Errant did nudge Brys to the dramatic gesture of having a nice refreshing drink after he kicked Rhulad's ass.

[Puck]

 Abyss, on 09 December 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

My version was that the Eunuch poisoned the wine at the King's order, anticipating an Edur victory, without any unfluence from the Errant, but that the Errant did nudge Brys to the dramatic gesture of having a nice refreshing drink after he kicked Rhulad's ass.

Yes, yes. But the question here is WHO poisoned the WINE. In RG, Tribal Gnol claims it was him, though MT heavily implies it was Nifadas.

Also, the twins are Sechul Lath's children, not the Errant's. Knuckles was the Elder God of chance. The way I always understood it, the Errant was/is the Elder God of fate, rather than luck/chance. The concepts are somewhat related, but also different, and fate implies a more grim theme, while chance is whimsical. It also fits better with the Lether theme of prophecy and fate.

[Azath Housecat]

@Puck
Where can I find the piece that Gorefest mentioned above? I'd really like to read it.

[theocean]

 Puckstein, on 09 December 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

 Abyss, on 09 December 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

My version was that the Eunuch poisoned the wine at the King's order, anticipating an Edur victory, without any unfluence from the Errant, but that the Errant did nudge Brys to the dramatic gesture of having a nice refreshing drink after he kicked Rhulad's ass.

Yes, yes. But the question here is WHO poisoned the WINE. In RG, Tribal Gnol claims it was him, though MT heavily implies it was Nifadas.

Also, the twins are Sechul Lath's children, not the Errant's. Knuckles was the Elder God of chance. The way I always understood it, the Errant was/is the Elder God of fate, rather than luck/chance. The concepts are somewhat related, but also different, and fate implies a more grim theme, while chance is whimsical. It also fits better with the Lether theme of prophecy and fate.

I always thought it was TG who did put the poison there, maybe it was a team effort somehow...


I know the twins are technically sechuls i just think he formed them in his buddies image.

This post has been edited by theocean: 09 December 2015 - 05:53 PM