[Gust Hubb]

Why is it that the holiday season is always bittersweet? I think it is a memory bias, but the holidays seem to be the time when things fall apart while coming together. Holidays for me are when you say goodbye to loved ones for the last time. When the memories of death return to haunt those of us who remain.

It also now marks the time when the relationship with my wife is redefined, when finally what I've known about her since we dated finally comes to fruition.

Has anyone watched Grace and Franky on Netflix? With America's long overdue shift to acceptance, the newest drama is the heterosexual spouse finding the other is homosexual. I see it also play out among my friends. One of my colleagues officially (most of us knew already) came out and now announced she and her husband are getting an amicable divorce. It is touching and sad at the same time, watching the support and sorrow play out across the social web.

Ironically, I am afraid similar changes are headed my way, though I can't tell yet. Early on, my wife mentioned a phase in her life when she tried to come out only to be snubbed by the Christian community surrounding her. The trauma sent these thoughts into hiding and she ended up treating it more like a fancy, a phase, a temporary shift in her life. She met me shortly after this and decided to pursue me. Within the year we were married.

Nine years later, things have shifted towards allowing people to come-out without as much derision and with a whole lot more support. So that is what has been happening.

For the last couple of weeks, my wife has been coming to terms with her sexuality and I have been encouraging her strongly to do so. We were watching Grace and Franky, then we had a couples counseling (we see it more as relationship direction rather than the stereotypical last ditch effort), and then my friend came out with her own announcement and divorce. A perfect storm, as often these things happen (again, memory bias?).

Regardless, I am now temporarily locked out, as my wife takes time to think through these huge life changes. She is not a verbal processor like me, and so I am in the dark.

I still love her, and hope that whatever she decides to do with her sexuality and her life she is honest with herself and to others, not living in hiding anymore.

But encouraging this opening may close my marriage (like it did for my friend), and I must confess, I am scared of what the future holds.

[amphibian]

There is a spectrum of human sexuality and the ranges where you and your wife each find yourselves inhabiting may coincide enough to keep the marriage together. Or they may not.

I think being supportive of this personal discovery process is a very good thing. However, I do see how it can be painful too - especially with kids involved. You may want to get acquainted with things like short walks to vent frustration in spaces away from your wife and kids (if not already having a good set of coping tactics already). Being able to communicate without frustration, sadness, and anger twisting your words will really help.

Best of luck to all of you.

[Mezla PigDog]

My family went through excruciating Christmases when I was in my teens and early 20s, proper cliche-ridden shit times. I now try to stick firmly to the idea that they are just ordinary days with a tad more effort put in and as such some will be surprisingly good and others will be rubbish but nobody needs to behave like a twat.

Rant aside Gust keep up being a stand up decent guy and you know where we are if you need to vent. Good luck, families can evolve into any format over time so long as everyone keeps being kind to each other and themselves.

[Morgoth]

Last christmas was without comparison the worst time of my life. I lost 10 kg, drank way way too much and could barely function. My friends and family basically did shifts living with me until I came to grips with what had happened. I took a month, and I will remember the deep black despair of that time for as long as I live.

Now, almost a year later, my life is pretty great. I still feel sorrow for the life I lost, but it has gotten muted, a sort of background sound that I often fail to notice altogether.

I hope you guys work this out in a way that will be good for both of you. If the worst happens though, it will be awfull but you will get through it, and you will come out of it a better person.

[A Demon Llama!]

I hope everything works out well for you GH.

[Gust Hubb]

Having trouble falling asleep tonight. Wife and I finally had the conversation I was awaiting. It seems pretty certain we are going down the open marriage (more likely divorce) route. She's going to start dating women, see where things go from there. I ask basically that she keep me in the loop as to where she is.

I dunno, I still am not really angry. I'm mostly sad, worried and uncertain. Trying to mentally solve the issues of kids, finances, living arrangements and finding someone new... At least it will be amicable and whatever she decides, she wants us to be in the same region so we can both be active in the kids' lives.

10 years. Always planning in my mind for these things, mentally playing out all the scenarios (what will I do if divorce hits, if someone dies, if there is a burglary, etc). Tend not to be horribly shocked. Just resigned.

10 years. Wouldn't give them up and dreams of time travel never work (I couldn't bear not having my kids).

I guess I better hit the gym harder, make myself marketable again.

[worry]

Had a couple friends who went through this. Can't say it wasn't rough on everybody, but I guess what was key is even when they weren't friends early on (he was reasonably angry/frustrated/confused) they never ceased to be a family. Now they're decent friends and still fantastic parents. I dunno if that's at all insightful, but my point is that no matter how crazy the emotions get, and that can be unpredictable, your intention to remain family is already on the right track for the kids and long-term equanimity.

[Morgoth]

Just remember that when life starts getting better again, Tinder will be there for you and it's awesome.

[Gust Hubb]

Apparently, this has been going on for longer than I even knew. Essentially, when the US Supreme Court legalized gay marriage across the USA, the landscape changed, and I'm sure this is what precipitated that friend's amicable divorce. This event and when I discovered my first GF ended up being gay started my wife down the path of trying to sort through her own sexuality. A snowball down hill.

[Slow Ben]

Damn Gust, I hope everything works out for the best.

[Vengeance]

Stay strong pat!

[James Hutton]

GH, we've never before spoken to each other on this forum (or anywhere else..), so it feels I'm invading your privacy to talk about something so very personal. Thought I know that's not true, 'cause you've deliberately started this thread.
I hope you can talk your way throught this with your partner, even though you mentioned that she doesn't verbally process a lot.

I wanted to say that if you and your partner wanted to seriously think about an open romantic relationship, that I can greatly recommend the book More Than Two by Franklin Veaux and Eve Rickert. I don't know if that is something that you (or she) seriously consider(s), but I found the book a great resource.

It's not a route that I in this way want to 'advertise' or something, as if it's something you should do. But I wanted you to know that more people have done it, and they've made a million mistakes as they're just as human as everybody else -- but they've come to a great deal of insights and by way of this book want to share these.

[Gust Hubb]

Yeah, I just put it on the list for posterity's sake. I mean that are the only two ways I can see us going if my wife stays true to her sexuality.

[Gust Hubb]

So, interesting developments. It took a long time to flesh out what my wife was expecting from all this. We think about things two entirely different ways. I take things to their logical conclusions. E.g. we both start dating again ---> high likelihood one of us develops an attachment ----> divorce. She, on the other hand, lives in the present. She thinks: we both start dating ----> ? who knows from here? Hence, when I've been trying to discuss the long term there has been a disconnect.

But now that we are more on the same page, I think in the next year and a half before I move to a new city for the next stage of education, we will be starting to slowly pull apart: dating, working with a mediator on how to go about an amicable divorce, developing her career, saving for the inevitable move for both of us into separate homes, etc.

Just going to be interesting with the fact that both of us will be still, for all intents and purposes, married living in the same home and sleeping in the same bed as we start to work out the future of our lives. And giving each other dating advice?... weird.

[Traveller]

I know your situation is complicated Gust, and I sympathise.. but staying under the same roof while starting up new relationships.. it can get even more complicated, and downright messy if either of you have remaining feelings for each other. Which you're bound to.

It can seem like a workable situation. But having someone else come into your house with someone who on many levels is still your partner can be very hard.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 12 December 2015 - 03:55 PM

[Gust Hubb]

Yeah, the dating while married may be the only choice we have financially. Plus, legal complications of moving elsewhere in a year and a half will require delay of true fianl separation with all of its ramifications.

Starting to look into Tinder and OKCupid (though not putting money in till things start accelerating, e.g a solid date or evidence of my wife diving into the swimming pool).

Not sure how I feel about these. Everything is so goddamn shallow, with most posting pretty pictures with absent or useless bioinfo. What the fuck am I to do with a bio of 5'9"? Measurement for horizontal positioning. Hard to identify people with gaming interests, scifi/fantasy reading habits, etc.

This is going to be a long road....

[Morgoth]

 Gust Hubb, on 15 December 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

Yeah, the dating while married may be the only choice we have financially. Plus, legal complications of moving elsewhere in a year and a half will require delay of true fianl separation with all of its ramifications.

Starting to look into Tinder and OKCupid (though not putting money in till things start accelerating, e.g a solid date or evidence of my wife diving into the swimming pool).

Not sure how I feel about these. Everything is so goddamn shallow, with most posting pretty pictures with absent or useless bioinfo. What the fuck am I to do with a bio of 5'9"? Measurement for horizontal positioning. Hard to identify people with gaming interests, scifi/fantasy reading habits, etc.

This is going to be a long road....

Man, you should move out of that place for a while. Otherwise it's going to be awfull for you. Also, I realise this has been a hard road for your wife but to be honest the way you've described her actions make her seem pretty selfish. You also deserve to have your feelings taken into consideration in all of this.

Tinder though, it certainly is difficult at first. Don't try to get a feel of personalities from the biographies. That is futile. Think of Tinder rather as a night club, or a pub. Except on Tinder the women you talk to are women you know find you attractive. They're already interested in you.

You'll get more matches than you get conversations, and many conversations will simply stagnate. Surprisingly often you can find something to talk about though, and from there it's a short step to suggesting a beer. Don't try to get to know the person beforehand. You wont. Ask her out and then see. Live a little

Throw yourself into it. Let the attention of attractive women take your mind of the stuff happening in your life. Believe me, it's an excellent coping mechanism.

[Arthur Dayne]

Gust, having gone down a road similar to this where the disconnect seems to be fairly complete, my advice mirrors Morgoth's.

It will be 1000x better for one of you to get out of that place for awhile, if not forever starting NOW. If you are truly concerned for your own sanity and you know the outcome, you need to start establishing some boundaries now or every little thing is just going to tear you up. And I don't mean sleeping in separate rooms or on the couch either. From the first time some other woman gets mentioned on either side whether it's intentional or accidental I would hope you don't expect someone's feelings not to be hurt. Also, take up any hobby or the gym or friends or whatever keeps you from sitting around dwelling on things for any large amount of time. Silence was never a good thing for me, and I doubt it'll help you either.

Put your child's well-being at the forefront in all your separation discussions and start treating yourself right. Your child will understand at some point that having both parents end up happy in the end (I hope for your sake) will be much better than living with parents that put on a show and that can't give 100% effort to them or eachother. Also, as a sore subject for me but i'll offer it to you... stay as close to your kid(s) as you can. I'm 2000+ miles from mine and watching them grow via Facebook or by pictures is MISERABLE. Keep your parental rights, for whatever you can reasonably maintain, and always keep your word with them if you want them to know you're someone they want to be in their lives. They grow up way too fast. I don't take you for this way either, but remember for as hard as this will be, be supportive of your wife through this and keep negative feelings to yourself because your kids see that too and they need you as a good role model for what a good father should be.

Take dating slowly as well. There are some horrible people out there and some very good people, but not everyone out there is going to date at the speed of your heart, whatever you determine that to be, so take the time to get to where you're ok with yourself in your new role first so that you always value yourself as the top priority. I went off the wagon for awhile after my split and had no respect for myself, let alone others and you'll hurt and be hurt until you find the right person. I found my path to healing my heart took 7 years and just re-married last week to someone who took 4 years of their time to make sure that I made the right decision for the both of us. Nothing worse than ending up right back where you started.

I really will send as many good thoughts your way as I can. You'll need them all I suspect, until you don't. I hope that day comes soon. Be good to yourself.

This post has been edited by Arthur Dayne: 17 December 2015 - 06:54 PM

[Gust Hubb]

Yeah, she's actually very genuine and kind. She just hasn't caught up intellectually to where things are (not close emotionally either). Just talking this morning, there was the thought that she could just ignore her orientation, that it was far less priority than the family. It is a noble thought, but do we want to live the rest of our lives wondering if we made the right choice, if this is the year we decide it is better to end it.

It's like a pro/con scale, balanced precariously. Unfortunately, she is religious, i am aetheist. Etc etc. This is actually years in coming. Another portion of the morning conversation acknowledged how with her church, homeless outreach and evening job, we have gradually had less and less time together. Separate ways.

So it seems like the timeline is moving up. Trying tinder while married, living in the same house without divorce proceedings rolling is incredibly, if not unsurprisingly, limiting. I mean how do you even broach the subject without instantly shuting the operation down. Divorce, pending or otherwise, is a black mark.

Few months now, guessing by summer.

[Arthur Dayne]

Yeah, the divorced thing is a deal breaker for some people. Be prepared to put up with some incredibly shallow people thinking that somehow you are broken no matter how amicably you and your wife separate.