[Gorefest]

Nicodimas, on 26 May 2022 - 05:40 PM, said:

Yes it's terribly sad that in this incident people failed to protect others that doesn't mean with different training now people won't in the future. As with anything people fail. We learn. We improve based off that.

You are living proof of the incorrectness of your own statement. You are going backwards.

[Primateus]

Nicodimas, on 26 May 2022 - 05:40 PM, said:

Yes it's terribly sad that in this incident people failed to protect others that doesn't mean with different training now people won't in the future. As with anything people fail. We learn. We improve based off that.

We can do more to defend children.

The fact that people are actually advocating having armed guards at an elementary school, turning schools into what amounts to armed fortifications, is the best indicator, aside from the dead children of course, that the American gun culture is a diseased one that needs to be put down!

[Tiste Simeon]

QuickTidal, on 26 May 2022 - 07:09 PM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 26 May 2022 - 06:49 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 26 May 2022 - 05:27 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 May 2022 - 04:28 PM, said:

This is where the "good guy with a gun" narrative falls flat. When even those TASKED with being the good guy with the gun fail to do anything....

ACAB.

Is Tiste Simeon a bastard, QT?

Yeah he's a tremendous douchenozzle!

I hope you weren't offended by my using this saying. It's one of those things that quite obviously doesn't apply to the good eggs like you.

Hah it's all good and to a point I get it. I'll be honest a lot of people advocate here for police to all get guns and the day that happens is the day I hand my notice in.

[Aptorian]

QuickTidal, on 26 May 2022 - 05:57 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 26 May 2022 - 05:27 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 May 2022 - 04:28 PM, said:

This is where the "good guy with a gun" narrative falls flat. When even those TASKED with being the good guy with the gun fail to do anything....

ACAB.

Is Tiste Simeon a bastard, QT?

Of course not. Nor is my brother in law, or my childhood friend who are/were also cops.

The point is that so very many of them are.

Are we going to nitpick the phrase now? Come on dude.

EDIT: more to the point, the rotten apples spoil the bunch.

I get your point. I just think the mental arithmetic is troublesome.

Replace the word cop with black people and think about what you just wrote.

This stereotypical us versus them mentality isn't healthy.

[QuickTidal]

Aptorian, on 27 May 2022 - 07:42 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 May 2022 - 05:57 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 26 May 2022 - 05:27 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 May 2022 - 04:28 PM, said:

This is where the "good guy with a gun" narrative falls flat. When even those TASKED with being the good guy with the gun fail to do anything....

ACAB.

Is Tiste Simeon a bastard, QT?

Of course not. Nor is my brother in law, or my childhood friend who are/were also cops.

The point is that so very many of them are.

Are we going to nitpick the phrase now? Come on dude.

EDIT: more to the point, the rotten apples spoil the bunch.

I get your point. I just think the mental arithmetic is troublesome.

Replace the word cop with black people and think about what you just wrote.

This stereotypical us versus them mentality isn't healthy.

I mean, this is interesting as an analogy since it's BLM and POC (who are inordinately harassed by the cops) who seemingly coined ACAB....like...did you not realize that when you typed it?

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'Uvalde [...] the 15,000-person city spends 40 percent of its budget on policing, and in 2020, the Uvalde Police Department proudly touted its nine-person SWAT team that was getting to know the layouts of local schools. [ So their brave and brilliant strategy was to... wait for Border Patrol? ...] "When the cops [actually Border Patrol] came, the cop said: 'Yell if you need help!' And one of the persons in my class said 'help.' The guy overheard and he came in and shot her,"

[...] Crime rates are soaring in spite of the fact that police funding is at record highs. The percentage of murders that police solve is at its lowest rate in 50 years. [...]

This reflexive support of the boys in blue, no matter the outcome, is not limited to deep-red Texas. In New York City, for example, an upward trend in subway crime has been met with mass deployment in the subways by the New York Police Department—a huge investment at a time when other city services, such as parks and playgrounds, are being defunded. But crime has not fallen in response; instead, April and May each saw shocking subway shootings.

[...] In both cases, New York officials praised the NYPD—but in both cases, the assailants roamed the subway with guns, escaped after shooting, and were at large in the city for days until they turned themselves in.'

Officers have failed to give a clear story about why they took so long to confront the gunman.

Bear in mind, police in New York won a court case allowing them to reject candidates who score too high on IQ tests.... (Their justification---rationalization?---was 'those who scored too high could get bored with police work'... though it seems like automation could help with that.)

Court OKs Barring High IQs for Cops - ABC News

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 27 May 2022 - 02:01 PM

[Malankazooie]

Hooboy, so I guess Fox News has been in rare form with the parade of pinheads who have made various suggestions to solve the problem, none of which involve, oh I don't know, keeping murder weapons out of the hands of 18 yr. olds. So, I had the misfortune of seeing a clip (I don't know who any of these people are, thankfully), but this woman suggested that we hang ballistic blankets, so basically armored vests, on the walls of classrooms. Is the dystopian future here? Are we living in it now?

[EDIT] She even went as far as saying they can be decorated with fun colors that are perfect for an elementary classroom. We're fucked.

This post has been edited by Malankazooie: 27 May 2022 - 07:30 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

Some relevant memes...
https://imgur.com/gallery/LZDN91s

[Gorefest]

Malankazooie, on 27 May 2022 - 07:28 PM, said:

Hooboy, so I guess Fox News has been in rare form with the parade of pinheads who have made various suggestions to solve the problem, none of which involve, oh I don't know, keeping murder weapons out of the hands of 18 yr. olds. So, I had the misfortune of seeing a clip (I don't know who any of these people are, thankfully), but this woman suggested that we hang ballistic blankets, so basically armored vests, on the walls of classrooms. Is the dystopian future here? Are we living in it now?

[EDIT] She even went as far as saying they can be decorated with fun colors that are perfect for an elementary classroom. We're fucked.

No worries, it is just the US that is fucked. The rest of us are fine.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Gorefest, on 27 May 2022 - 07:57 PM, said:

Malankazooie, on 27 May 2022 - 07:28 PM, said:

Hooboy, so I guess Fox News has been in rare form with the parade of pinheads who have made various suggestions to solve the problem, none of which involve, oh I don't know, keeping murder weapons out of the hands of 18 yr. olds. So, I had the misfortune of seeing a clip (I don't know who any of these people are, thankfully), but this woman suggested that we hang ballistic blankets, so basically armored vests, on the walls of classrooms. Is the dystopian future here? Are we living in it now?

[EDIT] She even went as far as saying they can be decorated with fun colors that are perfect for an elementary classroom. We're fucked.

No worries, it is just the US that is fucked. The rest of us are fine.

'Trump, [...] who is widely expected to be staging another run for president not only will attend this weekend's NRA convention, he is bragging about it.

[Trump:] "You have to give that Second Amendment great protection, because without it, we would be a very dangerous country"'

Donald Trump ahead of NRA speech: 'We would be a very dangerous country' without the 2nd Amendment - Alternet.org

'Guns are banned during Trump's upcoming speech at the NRA conference'

Guns are banned during Trump's speech at the NRA conference this week : NPR


I'll give the Texas governor some tiny amount of credit for publicly stating that the shooter was a US citizen. And for pulling out of his in-person appearance at the NRA convention.

But he's sending a pre-recorded video address instead....

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 27 May 2022 - 08:09 PM

[Malankazooie]

Hopefully this doesn't have that regional blocking deal and can be viewed by everyone.

[Tsundoku]

Is this a thing that is getting much traction across Twitter, or elsewhere on teh interwebz? I can't say I'd heard of anything similar after previous school shootings, so could it be considered progress?

https://www.news.com...a56f83c43f64480

Texas school shooting: Gun owners protest gun violence on Twitter
American gun owners have condemned the National Rifle Association in a series of scathing tweets after a school shooting that saw 19 children killed.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 28 May 2022 - 07:44 AM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'This Republican senator thinks "wokeness" is the cause of mass shootings

Wisconsin Republican Sen. Ron Johnson [...]

"We stopped teaching values in so many of our schools," said Johnson in an interview with Fox Business [ so many---except for the private religious schools? ...] Now we're teaching wokeness, we're indoctrinating our children with things like CRT, telling some children they're not equal to others, and they're the cause of other people's problems."

To his credit, anchor Neil Cavuto pushed back, noting that "these shootings, Senator, were going on long before CRT and wokeness, right?"

Johnson would not concede the point.

"I think CRT has been going on under the radar for quite some time as well," he said of critical race theory. "Wokeness has been. Liberal indoctrination has been. This is a much larger issue than what a simple new gun law is gonna -- it's not gonna solve it. It's not gonna solve it."'

This Republican senator thinks 'wokeness' is the cause of mass shootings - CNNPolitics


'Just two months ago, the Uvalde school district police department hosted an active-shooter training for officers, utilizing a version of the state's instructional guidelines, which say that the top priority for responding officers is to stop the killing by confronting the attacker. "A first responder unwilling to place the lives of the innocent above their own safety should consider another career field," the instructional guidelines say.'

'It Was the Wrong Decision,' Police Say of Delay in Confronting Gunman - The New York Times (nytimes.com)


'Ramos [...] had numerous group chats on Instagram in which they openly "discussed Ramos being a school shooter," [...]

That started in Feb. 28 — nearly three months before [...]

Ominously, on March 14, Ramos posted to Instagram "10 more days" — suggesting he may have been planning something two months earlier.

"A user replied, 'Are you gonna shoot up school or something?'" [...]

Ramos "replied 'No' — and 'stop asking dumb questions and you'll see,"'

Texas School Shooter Salvador Ramos Tried To Buy Gun For 8 Months (nationworldnews.com)

... how hard would it be for Instagram's AI content moderation to notice variations on 'Are you gonna shoot up school'?... Especially for teenage users who have posted a lot of gun photos?

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 28 May 2022 - 02:28 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'Local police blocked tactical units from engaging [...] shooter for an hour

[...]

"The agents from Border Patrol and Immigration and Customs Enforcement arrived at some point between 12 p.m. and 12:10 p.m.[...] far earlier than previously known," [...] "But they did not breach the adjoining classrooms of the school where the gunman had locked himself in until a little before 1 p.m. Members of the federal tactical team killed the gunman."

But officials [...] say the Uvalde Police Department prevented the agents from going in sooner.'

Local police blocked tactical units from engaging Robb Elementary School shooter for an hour: report - Alternet.org


'For law enforcement and social media companies, spotting a gun post from a potential mass shooter is like sifting through quicksand, [...] That's why she tells people not to ignore those type of posts, especially from children or young adults. Report it, she advises, to a school counselor, the police or even the FBI tip line.'

... but automated systems can easily flag these posts and report them law enforcement. Though knowing the poster is a child or young adult could be more problematic. (AI could be trained to identify someone as likely to be a child/young adult, and examine how many young adults/children they're interacting with, but it would be messy....)


'Increasingly, young men have taken to Instagram, which boasts a thriving gun community, to drop small hints of what's to come with photos of their own weapons just days or weeks before executing a mass killing.

Before shooting 17 students and staff members dead [...] posted on YouTube that he wanted to be a "professional school shooter" and shared photos of his face covered, posing with guns. The FBI took in a tip about [his] YouTube comment but never followed up [...]

In November, 15-year-old [...] shared a photo of a semi-automatic handgun his dad had purchased with the caption, "Just got my new beauty today," days before he went on to kill four students and injure seven others at his high school [...]

And days before entering a school classroom on Tuesday and killing 19 small children and two teachers, 18-year-old Salvador Ramos left similar clues across Instagram.

[...]

The school district in Uvalde had even spent money on software that, using geofencing technology, monitors for potential threats in the area.

Ramos, however, didn't make a direct threat in posts. Having recently turned 18, he was legally allowed to own the weapons in Texas.

His photos of semi-automatic rifles are one of many on platforms like Instagram, Facebook and YouTube where it's commonplace to post pictures or videos of guns and shooter training videos are prevalent. [...]

That makes it difficult for platforms to separate people posting gun photos as part of a hobby from those with violent intent, [...]

"In a perfect world, there would be some magical algorithm that could detect a worrisome photo of a gun on Instagram," [...] "For a lot of reasons, that's a slippery slope and impossible to do when there are people like gun collectors and gunsmiths who have no plan to use their weapon with ill intent."'

Shooter warning signs get lost in sea of social media posts - ABC News (go.com)

... or to distinguish actual violent intent... though in principle it's possible with enough data points. The US may be providing a fair amount of data....

While the slippery slope argument here is a valid concern, we can err on the side of having FBI/law enforcement (also using semi-automated systems) flag and track these people. Though allowing more government surveillance seems much less appealing in light of the history of partisan (and racist) abuse of power by the FBI and law enforcement... especially if Trump (or worse) takes the presidency.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 28 May 2022 - 03:58 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'Uvalde Gunman: "Everyone in This World Deserves to Get Raped"

[...] had repeatedly threatened other users on the social media app Yubo.

[...] "[...] harass girls and threaten them with sexual assault, like rape and kidnapping," [...] "[...] It was frequent."

[...] video from a live Yubo chat room which was recorded in which Ramos could be heard saying, "Everyone in this world deserves to get raped."

[...] "threatened to shoot up her school and rape and kill her and her mother during one livestream session" on Yubo. She reported him, she said, but after serving "a temporary ban" he was permitted to continue using the app.'

Uvalde Gunman Salvador Ramos said 'Everyone In This World Deserves to Get Raped' on Yubo (thedailybeast.com)


'Shooter's Classmate: "We Saw Him Beating a Little Dog"

"He loved hurting animals"

[...] The pattern of violence goes back as far as almost anyone can remember.

[...]

"He would try and call people names and start fights," [...] "there was one time we saw him beating a little dog senseless."

[...]

Students and parents had raised concerns before about the shooter's behavior problems [...]

"Sure, we have some therapists here locally but they aren't really qualified to handle something like this guy," [...] "This school never has enough money to really do all of the things they need to do. [...]"'

Uvalde Shooting: Classmate of Salvador Ramos, Jamie Arellano Says 'We Saw Him Beating a Little Dog" (thedailybeast.com)

'To comply with a 2018 Texas law [...] the "district adopted an array of security measures that included its own police force, threat assessment teams at each school, a threat reporting system, social media monitoring software, fences around schools and a requirement that teachers lock their classroom doors,"'

'Why Uvalde Cops Were Too Cowardly to Charge a Mass Shooter

American police are taught first and foremost to fear for their own lives.

[...] By and large, cops are taught to be in quaking terror at all times, to view the local citizenry as infested with violent criminals, and to prioritize their own safety above all else. The overwhelming focus is on threats to the police themselves, not the public. There is virtually no time spent on [...] remaining calm under fire. [...]

This message is powerfully reinforced by Supreme Court precedent[...] holding that police have no duty to protect the public unless they have specifically promised to in writing. [...] "the police do not have to act if someone is actively being harmed, they do not have to arrest someone who has violated orders, and they do not have any obligation to protect you from others."

[...] the sad truth is that most American communities would likely be a lot better off if actual U.S. Army soldiers replaced their current police departments. Military training of necessity focuses on enduring mortal risk and remaining cool under fire as much as it does being willing to kill someone. You don't want terrified hair-trigger Chicken Littles out there on patrol in a genuine war zone, because of the need for courage under fire—to engage the enemy, avoid a rout, rescue a downed comrade, and so on—not to mention the risk of friendly fire.'

Why Uvalde Cops Were Too Cowardly to Charge a Mass Shooter - The American Prospect

[Tsundoku]

Another hopeful sign? Reading too much into it? Yes? No?

https://www.news.com...ee8bb7d27a56333

Music stars’ NRA convention walkout suggests gun attitudes may be changing
It has the diehard support of millions of Americans, but there’s a new sign the NRA’s grasp may be beginning to loosen.

[Gwynn ap Nudd]

Support for the "gun rights" among Republican politicians is unlikely to waver unless there is a major makeover of the American political system. The only chance of gun safety regulation being passed anytime soon is if the Democrats hold the house this year, gain a couple senate seats and remove the filibuster. Which is unlikely at best. There is an off chance they get a watered down red flag or background check law through, but nothing else without a larger majority in the senate.

Even then it would be difficult to enact anything meaningful, as the Supreme Court already made up the idea that the Second Amendment was about the right of people to own guns and that's not going to change unless the makeup of the court changes drastically. The court now is way further to the right than it was when they made that up, and are likely about to make up another ruling that states Americans have the right to carry guns in public. A three member federal court just overturned a California law that required people to be 21 before being able to purchase an assault rifle, so it's questionable whether any restrictions on assault rifles will be allowed by the judiciary - especially if the case makes it to the Supreme Court.

Most Americans want stricter gun safety measures, but for most people this is not among the most important issues. Things like the economy and crime are always more important to more people - though somehow the concerns about crime don't get tied into gun safety.

However, there is a small minority of Americans for whom "gun rights" are very important. Many are the same people for whom pro-birth policies are important. The problem is, that these are the people who vote in Republican primary elections. And with how uncompetitive the majority of house and senate general elections are in the US, most races are decided in the primaries (seriously, there are always districts where candidates run unopposed in the general election). In non-presidential years, primary turnout is on the order of 20-25%. In states with party based primaries (most of them) the favoured party might have 15% of voters vote in their primary. With many states only requiring a plurality of votes, a representative or senator can be effectively elected by 5 or 6% of eligible voters. Even if they need a majority in the primary, that's 7.6% of voters. The combination of the primary system and states not splitting electoral college votes allows certain small minorities to drive government policy decisions (e.g. ex-pat Cubans in Florida setting federal policy towards Cuba for forty plus years). The gun lobby certainly isn't hurt by how much money they have to spend on elections either.

Basically, most Republicans are never worried about losing general elections, where being pro-gun safety might be a benefit. The only elections they might lose are primaries. And voting in favour of gun safety laws would cost them those elections.

Sure, you could solve some of that if more people voted in primaries, but that's as unlikely as Manchin voting to remove the filibuster to enact gun regulations.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Gwynn ap Nudd, on 29 May 2022 - 01:56 AM, said:

Support for the "gun rights" among Republican politicians is unlikely to waver unless there is a major makeover of the American political system. The only chance of gun safety regulation being passed anytime soon is if the Democrats hold the house this year, gain a couple senate seats and remove the filibuster. Which is unlikely at best. There is an off chance they get a watered down red flag or background check law through, but nothing else without a larger majority in the senate.

Even then it would be difficult to enact anything meaningful, as the Supreme Court already made up the idea that the Second Amendment was about the right of people to own guns and that's not going to change unless the makeup of the court changes drastically. The court now is way further to the right than it was when they made that up, and are likely about to make up another ruling that states Americans have the right to carry guns in public. A three member federal court just overturned a California law that required people to be 21 before being able to purchase an assault rifle, so it's questionable whether any restrictions on assault rifles will be allowed by the judiciary - especially if the case makes it to the Supreme Court.

Most Americans want stricter gun safety measures, but for most people this is not among the most important issues. Things like the economy and crime are always more important to more people - though somehow the concerns about crime don't get tied into gun safety.

However, there is a small minority of Americans for whom "gun rights" are very important. Many are the same people for whom pro-birth policies are important. The problem is, that these are the people who vote in Republican primary elections. And with how uncompetitive the majority of house and senate general elections are in the US, most races are decided in the primaries (seriously, there are always districts where candidates run unopposed in the general election). In non-presidential years, primary turnout is on the order of 20-25%. In states with party based primaries (most of them) the favoured party might have 15% of voters vote in their primary. With many states only requiring a plurality of votes, a representative or senator can be effectively elected by 5 or 6% of eligible voters. Even if they need a majority in the primary, that's 7.6% of voters. The combination of the primary system and states not splitting electoral college votes allows certain small minorities to drive government policy decisions (e.g. ex-pat Cubans in Florida setting federal policy towards Cuba for forty plus years). The gun lobby certainly isn't hurt by how much money they have to spend on elections either.

Basically, most Republicans are never worried about losing general elections, where being pro-gun safety might be a benefit. The only elections they might lose are primaries. And voting in favour of gun safety laws would cost them those elections.

Sure, you could solve some of that if more people voted in primaries, but that's as unlikely as Manchin voting to remove the filibuster to enact gun regulations.

Can imagine Republican politicians being willing to 'compromise' by increasing the information provided to law enforcement and expanding their powers of surveillance, especially for regulating social media and schools.

Shooter was apparently reported on social media for threatening to shoot up a school and reported to the school for torturing animals (or at least for violent behavior towards people, not clear if the animal cruelty was reported). A better background check would have disqualified him.

Republicans might also be willing to actually do something for mental health---including psychopathy. The shooter probably should have been diagnosed, treated (to the extent his likely unwillingness would allow), and monitored.


'What do you do about the “psychopaths”? One option even many Republicans have entertained in recent years is taking guns away from such people.

[...] conservative governors, GOP senators and even [...] Trump have at least momentarily entertained the idea of “red-flag” laws — [....] seeking court orders for law enforcement to prevent someone considered a danger to themselves or others from keeping or obtaining a gun. After returning from Uvalde, Sen. John Cornyn (R-Tex.) said he’d be in talks [...] about red-flag laws. The types of red flags incorporated into such laws are generally violent threats against others, suicidal thoughts and other mental health issues.

[...] “In 5 out of 5 of the most deadly school shootings, the killers displayed warning signs of being a potential threat to themselves or others,” the report said. “This stunning fact illustrates the need for a legal tool to keep firearms out of the hands of dangerous individuals.” While that report focused on school shootings, other mass shootings in recent American history also fit this trend.'

The many ‘red flags’ in recent mass shootings - The Washington Post

OTOH:

'How Trump made being a psychopath fashionable'

How Trump made being a psychopath fashionable

[Gwynn ap Nudd]

Azath Vitr (D, on 29 May 2022 - 03:06 AM, said:

Can imagine Republican politicians being willing to 'compromise' by increasing the information provided to law enforcement and expanding their powers of surveillance, especially for regulating social media and schools.

Republicans might also be willing to actually do something for mental health---including psychopathy. The shooter probably should have been diagnosed, treated (to the extent his likely unwillingness would allow), and monitored.

Yes, they might "compromise" by offering to increase police powers that nobody else wants to see increased. Given the absolute failure of the police on the ground, they might hold off on that thought this time though.

Actually doing something about mental health issues would require expanding government provided health services. This costs money, and would likely require raising taxes. Every single Republican in office has taken an oath to never raise taxes, so that's not going to happen, and Republicans are not going to vote in favour of increasing the deficit to expand the social safety net (edit: they only vote to increase the deficit if it means tax cuts for corporations and the rich). They will make some comments and noise about mental health, but only until this shooting fades from the news cycle.

This post has been edited by Gwynn ap Nudd: 29 May 2022 - 03:24 AM

[Tsundoku]

I'm sure this has been posted before but fuck it, I don't care. It should be seen by as many people as possible.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 29 May 2022 - 05:25 AM