[Terez]

Oponn Relationship, on 02 May 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

Terez, on 02 May 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

Done with Westeros. Too much dumb.

The talk is that Rickon is Ramsey's gift.

What gift? This rings no bells.

It's in the preview for next week, which you must watch if you haven't already because it has that amazing Tower of Joy scene in it.

This post has been edited by Terez: 02 May 2016 - 06:23 AM

[QuickTidal]

That was an utterly fantastic episode. Loved every bit. My wife was overjoyed when Jon woke...and at a half an hour through the ep I called it and said "They'll do some ritual and he'll gasp up off the table and the credits will run" and boom, that's what happened.

Also, The scene with Euron and Balon was really well done.

[Werthead]

Much better than last week's episode. This one had some problems, mainly Jon Snow being resurrected because of a haircut (hmm) and the fact that they tried to catch up the Ironborn storyline in 15 seconds (although that did almost work), but they were much less of issues that Dorne apocalypse last week. Particularly good were the Winterfell flashbacks (young Roderick was funny) and the visual image of Euron and Balon on the bridge, as well as Gregorstein's very chilled out way of dealing with the insult against Cersei.

Clearly they made a mistake with how they laid things out on TV versus the books:

Spoiler

I think it's clear that Melisandre will also resurrect Jon in the books, but possibly after his spirit has warged into Ghost's body and by burning Shireen to fuel the magic needed. In the show they can't do that because they never showed anyone other than Bran warging and they already burned Shireen last year for absolutely no reason. So...magic haircut.

Quote

It might not have been so bad if their website wasn't overloaded and laggy as fuck. But I suspect that all the old-timers at Westeros have a private forum where they discuss the show, because they're never on these threads.

Haha. The "old-timers" at Westeros mostly gave up on the show several seasons back, or just watch it as a TV show mostly unrelated to the books. It's a good show, intermittently, but a pale shadow of the novels and that makes it more frustrating to watch than if it was just a new TV series. Not that it's bad, but that it is falling massively far short of its potential and that can get quite frustrating.

[QuickTidal]

Werthead, on 02 May 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

This one had some problems, mainly Jon Snow being resurrected because of a haircut (hmm)

So wait, wait, wait... you have zero issues with sacrificial magic (burning people) or the use of a host animal (warging) to achieve the goal of resurrection...but the spells she chanted and the ceremonial cutting and burning (<---that's obliviously the important part of the spell anyways) of his hair is somehow a problem?

All this magic is fictional. The difference between burning his hair while chanting a spell OR burning another human to gain a magical power back reserve...is completely negligible in the vein of fictional magic use.

[Tapper]

QuickTidal, on 02 May 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

Werthead, on 02 May 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

This one had some problems, mainly Jon Snow being resurrected because of a haircut (hmm)

So wait, wait, wait... you have zero issues with sacrificial magic (burning people) or the use of a host animal (warging) to achieve the goal of resurrection...but the spells she chanted and the ceremonial cutting and burning (<---that's obliviously the important part of the spell anyways) of his hair is somehow a problem?

All this magic is fictional. The difference between burning his hair while chanting a spell OR burning another human to gain a magical power back reserve...is completely negligible in the vein of fictional magic use.

Which is clearly why fcitional literature is full of hair burnings and completely devoid of human sacrifice to power spells or religious rituals... oh wait.

[End of Disc One]

I just hope that they highlight some cost to resurrecting Jon (only death can pay for life, etc.) Maybe Mel used the stored up magic from burning Shireen. I didn't like how Davos just straight up asked Mel if she could revive Jon. She didn't believe it would be possible, and it was...I just hope that they give us some reason for that.

Also not a fan with how Roose went out so easily. I don't really buy the idea that this will work, and that people will believe Ramsay and follow him. But maybe it won't work, so we'll see.

Quibbles aside, much stronger episode than the premiere. I like what we've seen of Euron's actor so far. Best scene was Robert Strong smashing a skull, followed by Wun Wun smashing a skull.

[QuickTidal]

Tapper, on 02 May 2016 - 02:15 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 02 May 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

Werthead, on 02 May 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

This one had some problems, mainly Jon Snow being resurrected because of a haircut (hmm)

So wait, wait, wait... you have zero issues with sacrificial magic (burning people) or the use of a host animal (warging) to achieve the goal of resurrection...but the spells she chanted and the ceremonial cutting and burning (<---that's obliviously the important part of the spell anyways) of his hair is somehow a problem?

All this magic is fictional. The difference between burning his hair while chanting a spell OR burning another human to gain a magical power back reserve...is completely negligible in the vein of fictional magic use.

Which is clearly why fcitional literature is full of hair burnings and completely devoid of human sacrifice to power spells or religious rituals... oh wait.

Sorry, it's a super tiny nitpick. No one is going to be able to sell me otherwise. Just because this is how it happened on the show, should not make that any less believable to the casual audience than a human burning spell. They are both fictional inventions, neither one trumping the other simply because we've seen one before in fiction. That's silly.

[QuickTidal]

End of Disc One, on 02 May 2016 - 02:40 PM, said:

I just hope that they highlight some cost to resurrecting Jon (only death can pay for life, etc.) Maybe Mel used the stored up magic from burning Shireen. I didn't like how Davos just straight up asked Mel if she could revive Jon. She didn't believe it would be possible, and it was...I just hope that they give us some reason for that.

I was actually wondering if the resurrection cost her the youth glamour she obliviously has cast over herself and we will see an old withered woman in the next ep as a result. But I agree, there should be a cost.

[Tapper]

QuickTidal, on 02 May 2016 - 02:40 PM, said:

Tapper, on 02 May 2016 - 02:15 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 02 May 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

Werthead, on 02 May 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

This one had some problems, mainly Jon Snow being resurrected because of a haircut (hmm)

So wait, wait, wait... you have zero issues with sacrificial magic (burning people) or the use of a host animal (warging) to achieve the goal of resurrection...but the spells she chanted and the ceremonial cutting and burning (<---that's obliviously the important part of the spell anyways) of his hair is somehow a problem?

All this magic is fictional. The difference between burning his hair while chanting a spell OR burning another human to gain a magical power back reserve...is completely negligible in the vein of fictional magic use.

Which is clearly why fcitional literature is full of hair burnings and completely devoid of human sacrifice to power spells or religious rituals... oh wait.

Sorry, it's a super tiny nitpick. No one is going to be able to sell me otherwise. Just because this is how it happened on the show, should not make that any less believable to the casual audience than a human burning spell. They are both fictional inventions, neither one trumping the other simply because we've seen one before in fiction. That's silly.

Not really. Mel needed a combination of blood and fire to get her magic done in these series, whether it was via leeched blood, bastards or a king's (brother's) daughter. Then, for resurrection, suddenly hair clippings were enough?
I bet Gendry wouldn't have stepped in a boat if a visit to the barber sufficed.

[Nevyn]

Actually, I found the episode just ok. Good that they got the Jon Snow thing over with, but we all knew it was coming.

King's Landing stuff is boring the heck out of me. Yes, they need time to set things up, but even the set up was fun when Varys and Littlefinger were around.

Finally going back to the iron islands was nice.

Arya's punishment didn't last long, did it?


As for next week's episode, I would have assumed the gift would be a re-captured Theon. Tower of Joy should be an awesome fight scene, and could go one of two ways after ... the explicit reveal, or just a drawn out tease where Bran only sees the battle. Also surprised they are getting to it that quickly, would have thought they'd show a flashback of the tournament first. Suppose they could do both.

[Nevyn]

Tapper, on 02 May 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

Not really. Mel needed a combination of blood and fire to get her magic done in these series, whether it was via leeched blood, bastards or a king's (brother's) daughter. Then, for resurrection, suddenly hair clippings were enough?
I bet Gendry wouldn't have stepped in a boat if a visit to the barber sufficed.

Thoros did it multiple times without blood sacrifice or hair. I have no real problem with it differing from her prior magic, but in the name of drama and a drawn out scene they did make the thing more ceremonial and involved than the Thoros resurrections.

I would not interpret the haircut as powering the spell though. More like a part of the cleansing ritual.

The part that was weirdest to me was having the Onion Knight suggest the resurrection, just spitballing, having never witnessed that power before. "Hey, you've done some weird things. Can you do this?". I had assumed that Mel would just get another vision clarifying everything and telling her what to do ... but I guess then we'd have to see it and it would be too spoilery. Having her still be low on the faith scale and just trying because someone asked felt odd. Compared to that, what's a little burning hair?

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 02 May 2016 - 02:56 PM

[amphibian]

Looked like Melisandre needed to have Balon die before her magic really returned. Rhyllor is a one at a time sorta God.

[QuickTidal]

Tapper, on 02 May 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

Not really. Mel needed a combination of blood and fire to get her magic done in these series, whether it was via leeched blood, bastards or a king's (brother's) daughter. Then, for resurrection, suddenly hair clippings were enough?
I bet Gendry wouldn't have stepped in a boat if a visit to the barber sufficed.

Except let's go back to how the show handled Thoros bringing Beric back when he explains it. It's not like he had to do some crazy spell, he just said the words...the god did the rest.

[Melisandre enters the Brotherhood's hideout unannounced]
Beric Dondarrion: Forgive my manners. I don't see many ladies these days.
Thoros of Myr: Lucky for the ladies.
[Melisandre walks over to Beric and examines his scars]
Melisandre: [to Thoros] How many times has the Lord brought him back?
Thoros of Myr: Six.
[Melisandre looks shocked]
Melisandre: [in High Valyrian] That's not possible.
Thoros of Myr: [in High Valyrian] The Lord has smiled upon me.
Melisandre: [in High Valyrian] You should not have this power.
Thoros of Myr: [in High Valyrian] I have no power. I ask the Lord for His favor, and He responds as He will.
[Thoros sits down by the fire]
Thoros of Myr: [in English] I've always been a terrible priest. Drank too much rum. Fucked all the whores in King's Landing. It's a terrible thing to say, but... by the time I came to Westeros, I didn't believe in our Lord. I decided that He, that all the gods, were stories we told the children to make them behave. So I wore the robes, and every now and then, I'd recite the prayers. It was just for show. A spectacle for the locals. Until the Mountain drove a lance through this one's heart.
[Thoros points at Beric]
Thoros of Myr: I knelt beside his cold body, and said the old words. Not because I believed in them, but... he was my friend. And he was dead. And they were the only words I knew. And for the first time in my life, the Lord replied. Beric's eyes opened. And I knew the truth: our God is the one true God... and all men must serve Him.
Melisandre: [to Beric] You've been to the other side?
Beric Dondarrion: The other side? There IS no other side. I have been to the darkness, my lady.
[pause]
Beric Dondarrion: He sent you to us for a reason.
Melisandre: You have someone He needs.

[Andorion]

Liked the episode a lot/


Regarding the resurrection, its clearly Mel losing all faith and just saying "please" in quiet desperation that did the trick. No power, no rituals, no blood. As QT posted above it worked for Thoros

Is Tyrion a Targaryen?[img]http://forum.malazanempire.com/public/style_emoticons/Malazan/:thumbsup:.gif[/img]


Also what is wrong with Westeros? The discussion there is so bitter and negative - its toxic. Even fairly new members seem to be like that.

[QuickTidal]

Andorion, on 02 May 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

Is Tyrion a Targaryen?[img]http://forum.malazanempire.com/public/style_emoticons/Malazan/:thumbsup:.gif[/img]

I think Tyrion is indeed a Targ (mother raped by the Mad King Aerys II, making him Dany's half-brother). As is Jon (son of Rhaegar, and thus Dany's nephew even though they are of an age).

So I feel like the three dragons will be rode into battle against the White Walkers by Dany, Jon, and Tyrion respectively.

Oh, and it sounds like the dialogue between Balon and Euron indicated that the dragonhorn will be in his possession, as they spoke about him being in Old Valyria when he went slightly mad at sea.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 02 May 2016 - 05:09 PM

[Andorion]

QuickTidal, on 02 May 2016 - 05:07 PM, said:

Andorion, on 02 May 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

Is Tyrion a Targaryen?.gif" />

I think Tyrion is indeed a Targ (mother raped by the Mad King Aerys II, making him Dany's half-brother). As is Jon (son of Rhaegar, and thus Dany's nephew even though they are of an age).

So I feel like the three dragons will be rode into battle against the White Walkers by Dany, Jon, and Tyrion respectively.

Oh, and it sounds like the dialogue between Balon and Euron indicated that the dragonhorn will be in his possession, as they spoke about him being in Old Valyria when he went slightly mad at sea.

I had actually thought of the Tyrion idea last year when I read A World of Ice and Fire and noted how Aerys visits the Lannisters the year before Tyrions birth.

This should be cool. I am ambivalent about the Ironborn storyline. I didn't find them very interesting in the books or in the show. In fact I found Euron a bit annoying and possible overhyped.

[QuickTidal]

Andorion, on 02 May 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 02 May 2016 - 05:07 PM, said:

Andorion, on 02 May 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

Is Tyrion a Targaryen?.gif" />

I think Tyrion is indeed a Targ (mother raped by the Mad King Aerys II, making him Dany's half-brother). As is Jon (son of Rhaegar, and thus Dany's nephew even though they are of an age).

So I feel like the three dragons will be rode into battle against the White Walkers by Dany, Jon, and Tyrion respectively.

Oh, and it sounds like the dialogue between Balon and Euron indicated that the dragonhorn will be in his possession, as they spoke about him being in Old Valyria when he went slightly mad at sea.

I had actually thought of the Tyrion idea last year when I read A World of Ice and Fire and noted how Aerys visits the Lannisters the year before Tyrions birth.

This should be cool. I am ambivalent about the Ironborn storyline. I didn't find them very interesting in the books or in the show. In fact I found Euron a bit annoying and possible overhyped.

Since the Targ's are the dragonriders, it makes sense to have a 3rd secret Targ (beyond Jon) kicking around and Tyrion has always been my goto on that front. Especially because people always talk about Tywin hating him becuase he was a dwarf from his loins...and I always felt that Tywin knows that Tyrion is really Aerys II's and hates him for that fact, and doesn't let on to the world because it would have entirely spoiled the Lannister image he had crafted. Like if your supposed son is a midget born of a rape, why would you not say that out loud so that people know that he's not REALLY yours, but you raised him anyways...instead I think Tywin was just vain enough to not want such a thing to be made public, so he sucked it up and kept the secret.

Unless he didn't know...which I doubt.

But yeah, if not Tyrion as the 3rd Targ, then who?

[Andorion]

QuickTidal, on 02 May 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

Andorion, on 02 May 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 02 May 2016 - 05:07 PM, said:

Andorion, on 02 May 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

Is Tyrion a Targaryen?.gif" />

I think Tyrion is indeed a Targ (mother raped by the Mad King Aerys II, making him Dany's half-brother). As is Jon (son of Rhaegar, and thus Dany's nephew even though they are of an age).

So I feel like the three dragons will be rode into battle against the White Walkers by Dany, Jon, and Tyrion respectively.

Oh, and it sounds like the dialogue between Balon and Euron indicated that the dragonhorn will be in his possession, as they spoke about him being in Old Valyria when he went slightly mad at sea.

I had actually thought of the Tyrion idea last year when I read A World of Ice and Fire and noted how Aerys visits the Lannisters the year before Tyrions birth.

This should be cool. I am ambivalent about the Ironborn storyline. I didn't find them very interesting in the books or in the show. In fact I found Euron a bit annoying and possible overhyped.

Since the Targ's are the dragonriders, it makes sense to have a 3rd secret Targ (beyond Jon) kicking around and Tyrion has always been my goto on that front. Especially because people always talk about Tywin hating him becuase he was a dwarf from his loins...and I always felt that Tywin knows that Tyrion is really Aerys II's and hates him for that fact, and doesn't let on to the world because it would have entirely spoiled the Lannister image he had crafted. Like if your supposed son is a midget born of a rape, why would you not say that out loud so that people know that he's not REALLY yours, but you raised him anyways...instead I think Tywin was just vain enough to not want such a thing to be made public, so he sucked it up and kept the secret.

Unless he didn't know...which I doubt.

But yeah, if not Tyrion as the 3rd Targ, then who?

No other option really. Of the main characters, I have ruled out Arya and Bran warging a dragon would be weird.

So who is the Gift? Please not Rickon....

[QuickTidal]

Andorion, on 02 May 2016 - 05:40 PM, said:

So who is the Gift? Please not Rickon....

Rickon seems too obvious and kinda silly. But then Rickon and Osha (and Shaggydog) WERE headed to the Umber's on Bran's orders last we saw. So it's not off the table. But I don't know what else it could be. From set photo's we know that it's not Theon as he makes it back the the Pyke, and Sansa is safe with Brienne and Pod...so what other gift could it be?

[Nevyn]

QuickTidal, on 02 May 2016 - 05:49 PM, said:

Rickon seems too obvious and kinda silly. But then Rickon and Osha (and Shaggydog) WERE headed to the Umber's on Bran's orders last we saw. So it's not off the table. But I don't know what else it could be. From set photo's we know that it's not Theon as he makes it back the the Pyke, and Sansa is safe with Brienne and Pod...so what other gift could it be?

A Candelabra is always a nice gift ...

Are the set photos episode specific? Theon can make it back to Pyke later, can't he?

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 02 May 2016 - 06:07 PM