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Game of Thrones Season 6 BOOK SPOILERS through early TWOW chapters Rate Topic: ***** 1 Votes

#921 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 05:08 AM

View Post- Coltaine -, on 20 June 2016 - 05:00 AM, said:

Would Daenerys without Tyrion end up as Daenerys the Mad?

The showrunners made it pretty clear in the "inside the episode" thing that they're not going the Mad Dany route.

View Post- Coltaine -, on 20 June 2016 - 05:00 AM, said:

Jon is surely not cold iron, he messed everything up. Stupid Jon. But Sansa is. Sansa becomes creppy in the end. But it was Ramsey. A fitting end.
So, don't follow Jon, he is a bad leader. Follow Sansa.

Sansa did try to warn him that Rickon wasn't going to make it, no matter what they did.

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 06:03 AM

That was pretty darn awesome. Maybe some of the through-line stuff wasn't hit as hard as it could have been (similar to Mormont's sword not being remarked upon earlier) but so much good outweighed that. And if the show's version was this good, I am so stoked for the GRRM version.
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Posted 20 June 2016 - 07:38 AM

On r/dbz there are a bunch of sad Cleganebowl hypers who have now transferred their hype to the imminent Gokubowl. It's cute.

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 08:52 AM

My sense of Sansa not telling Jon about the letter-writing is that it was a power move. I don't think she thinks of Jon as an enemy by any means -- but a rival? Maybe. At the very least though she's acting in her own interests first and foremost.
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Posted 20 June 2016 - 12:17 PM

I loved Tyrion's Theon smackdown. The Dany/Asha camaraderie was good too, but Tyrion/Theon was better. I'm hoping Tyrion's banter about unoriginal dwarf jokes was a deliberate reference (on the part of the writers) to Varys's complaints about Tyrion's eunuch jokes.

Grey Worm vs the Masters was one of my favorite moments of the episode.

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#926 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 04:07 PM

That belongs amongst the very small list of a near-perfect episodes of TV. It was crafted with utter attention to detail, and a verve of storytelling (not surprising considering Sapochnik's history as a storyboarder) and probably one of the finest filmed battle sequences ever in the medium. I mean he was down in the dirt pulling off incredible snap-quick pull shots, that sweep around and keep letting off these kinetic connections like synapses firing...and yet he's not at all afraid to pull all the way back for wider medium shots for context. You never got lost in the action...which feels insane to say because he was such a fan of keeping things tight when the shit was going down. He showed an ease of impression with the pincushioning of the Stark forces, down to and including Jon being trampled underneath the vast hills of bodies.

Sansa. Sweet good gods...If you had told me when I was reading like book 2 that Sansa would become one of the most badass people in the series, I might have laughed at you, but she had not just one, not two, but THREE scenes of badassery in this ep. The first being her perfect dismissal of Ramsay when he spouts off a bunch of typical nastiness...and she simply goes "You're going to die tomorrow. Enjoy your night." turns and rides away. I mean fuck. That's amazing. I love matter-of-fact stuff like that (I'm reminded of the Joker in TDK, "This city deserves a better class of criminal, and I'm gonna give it to them. You'll see, I'll show ya."). Second was her discussion with Jon about not underestimating Ramsay and not playing his game. She proved to have known what she was doing more than he did (ignoring whether or not she knew the Vale was coming, just from her general Ramsay-knowledge). Lastly, and not least, of course is the " You will be forgotten" speech. I mean, talk about a 180. This season Sansa has shown that she is as much as force to be reckoned with as her mother was, moreso even. Bravo.

Two SOARING moments, again perfectly directed, were: The Vale soldiers riding in, the banners snapping and roaring in the wind was amazing (Littlefinger I bet you feels a thousand feet tall, we'll see if that lasts), and the Bolton banners falling into mud at Winterfell, and the Stark direwolf once again riding the walls. Just fantastic.

The dragons in Mereen. I mean what's to say? That was fantasy nerd crack incarnate. Three dragons breathing fire in controlled spews at the master's ships...and Grey Worm's fucking BADASS knifing of the two masters, combined with Tyrion's "Tell others what you have seen here, and know you live at the mercy of her Majesty."...again perfect.

I think moreso that anything else this episode is the culmination of a triumph we've all been waiting for since the mid-1990's...the first major Stark win, the first major Dany trumping of the forces arrayed against her over the narrow sea with her dragons...nasty people either getting their comeuppance (Ramsay), or that being on the horizon (Melisandre)...it all just feels like a collective breath. Which is awesome considering how breathless the entire episode is from pretty much start to finish.

I'm wondering about Rickon's non-zigging or zagging though? Was that a character trait? Was Rickon really that dumb...or was that a fumble in the (otherwise) spotless direction?

Either way, Miguel Sapochnik has earned a damned place at the directors table. He's proven time and time again that he's incredible. Cannot WAIT to see what he does with the ALTERED CARBON pilot for Netflix.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 20 June 2016 - 04:13 PM

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 04:48 PM

View PostTerez, on 20 June 2016 - 04:42 AM, said:

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 20 June 2016 - 04:38 AM, said:

Mmmm. That was a lovely episode.

Frankly, I don't know how to adequately deal with an actual Stark win.

Mind is blown.

That banner unfurling was lovely, wasn't it?
...



It so utterly was, and especially the understated, almost quiet offhand way they did it.

View PostCoonass, on 20 June 2016 - 04:44 AM, said:

Instead of arrows I was expecting dogs esp when he said to remember to run. I wonder how many people are screaming that Rickon didn't zig? I'm sure there's some hate popping up



View PostTatterdemalion, on 20 June 2016 - 04:53 AM, said:

Immediately wanted Rickon to zig zag.
And yes, the banner unfurling feeling great.
I also expected dogs. Why would Ramsay hold them in reserve?

...



Same reaction... I know I'm overthinking it, but all he really had to do was run to one of the big flaming thingies and he would have had some cover.

As for the dogs, given how solid a plan Ramsey had for wiping out Jon's army, why waste his precious dogs or risk them getting in the way of a perfectly good massacre?

That said, Ramsey did do exactly what Sansa said he would and manipulate the fuck out of Jon, basically eliminating his entire plan for the battle.

Quote

Sansa did try to warn him that Rickon wasn't going to make it, no matter what they did.


Yep. And she was right.

Tho that probably made it even worse when Ramsey trotted him out right in front of Jon.



View Post- Coltaine -, on 20 June 2016 - 05:00 AM, said:

Jon is surely not cold iron, he messed everything up. Stupid Jon. But Sansa is. Sansa becomes creppy in the end. But it was Ramsey. A fitting end.
So, don't follow Jon, he is a bad leader. Follow Sansa.



I think that may be exactly where this is going.

Not to mention that Sansa as Warden of the North would reflect Dany and Yara's chat very nicely.

View Postworry, on 20 June 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

My sense of Sansa not telling Jon about the letter-writing is that it was a power move. I don't think she thinks of Jon as an enemy by any means -- but a rival? Maybe. At the very least though she's acting in her own interests first and foremost.


Kinda. I think it was more in the nature of she didn't want to undermine Jon but took steps just in case she was right.


View PostTatterdemalion, on 20 June 2016 - 04:53 AM, said:

...
There was something I absolutely loved about Drogon and the other dragon floating there BURNINATING the ship while the third dragon flew loops doing its own thing. Like it just didn't feel like burning things that way.
...


I know!

When Tyrion and Dany were discussing using the Masters' fleet, I was wondering what was even left of it to use!

That scene was SO good, and completely set the dragons as the engines of destruction the books have always said they were.

SO GOOD.



View PostTerez, on 20 June 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

I loved Tyrion's Theon smackdown. The Dany/Asha camaraderie was good too, but Tyrion/Theon was better. I'm hoping Tyrion's banter about unoriginal dwarf jokes was a deliberate reference (on the part of the writers) to Varys's complaints about Tyrion's eunuch jokes.

Grey Worm vs the Masters was one of my favorite moments of the episode.



Both those bits were just a lovely combo of well written dialogue and perfect delivery by the actors.

View PostQuickTidal, on 20 June 2016 - 04:07 PM, said:

That belongs amongst the very small list of a near-perfect episodes of TV. It was crafted with utter attention to detail, and a verve of storytelling (not surprising considering Sapochnik's history as a storyboarder) and probably one of the finest filmed battle sequences ever in the medium. I mean he was down in the dirt pulling off incredible snap-quick pull shots, that sweep around and keep letting off these kinetic connections like synapses firing...and yet he's not at all afraid to pull all the way back for wider medium shots for context. You never got lost in the action...which feels insane to say because he was such a fan of keeping things tight when the shit was going down. He showed an ease of impression with the pincushioning of the Stark forces, down to and including Jon being trampled underneath the vast hills of bodies.


Agreed. Everything about this was TV at its finest, fantasy TV even moreso. Loved it.

Quote

Sansa. Sweet good gods...If you had told me when I was reading like book 2 that Sansa would become one of the most badass people in the series, I might have laughed at you, but she had not just one, not two, but THREE scenes of badassery in this ep. The first being her perfect dismissal of Ramsay when he spouts off a bunch of typical nastiness...and she simply goes "You're going to die tomorrow. Enjoy your night." turns and rides away. I mean fuck. That's amazing. I love matter-of-fact stuff like that (I'm reminded of the Joker in TDK, "This city deserves a better class of criminal, and I'm gonna give it to them. You'll see, I'll show ya."). Second was her discussion with Jon about not underestimating Ramsay and not playing his game. She proved to have known what she was doing more than he did (ignoring whether or not she knew the Vale was coming, just from her general Ramsay-knowledge). Lastly, and not least, of course is the " You will be forgotten" speech. I mean, talk about a 180. This season Sansa has shown that she is as much as force to be reckoned with as her mother was, moreso even. Bravo.


I always expected that was where Sansa was going in the books, but it took the show to crystallize it in a realistic and compelling way.

Quote

Two SOARING moments, again perfectly directed, were: The Vale soldiers riding in, the banners snapping and roaring in the wind was amazing (Littlefinger I bet you feels a thousand feet tall, we'll see if that lasts), and the Bolton banners falling into mud at Winterfell, and the Stark direwolf once again riding the walls. Just fantastic.

The dragons in Mereen. I mean what's to say? That was fantasy nerd crack incarnate.


ALL THE FANTASY NERD CRACK. ALL OF IT!!!!!!

Quote


Three dragons breathing fire in controlled spews at the master's ships...and Grey Worm's fucking BADASS knifing of the two masters, combined with Tyrion's "Tell others what you have seen here, and know you live at the mercy of her Majesty."...again perfect.

I think moreso that anything else this episode is the culmination of a triumph we've all been waiting for since the mid-1990's...the first major Stark win, the first major Dany trumping of the forces arrayed against her over the narrow sea with her dragons...nasty people either getting their comeuppance (Ramsay), or that being on the horizon (Melisandre)...it all just feels like a collective breath. Which is awesome considering how breathless the entire episode is from pretty much start to finish.



Agreed on all points.

Quote

I'm wondering about Rickon's non-zigging or zagging though? Was that a character trait? Was Rickon really that dumb...or was that a fumble in the (otherwise) spotless direction?


I think that point is going to be thrown around for years to come.

It amounts to a director making the decision to go with dramatic effect over 'realism'.

Alternately, if Ric has actually been smart about zigging, Ramsey could have just called down a flight of arrows from his archers to the same effect.

Quote

Either way, Miguel Sapochnik has earned a damned place at the directors table. He's proven time and time again that he's incredible. Cannot WAIT to see what he does with the ALTERED CARBON pilot for Netflix.


I am now even MORE excited about CARBON.
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#928 User is offline   Nevyn 

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 06:09 PM

View PostAbyss, on 20 June 2016 - 04:48 PM, said:

Kinda. I think it was more in the nature of she didn't want to undermine Jon but took steps just in case she was right.


There is more to it than that. Remember, she has been lying to him for awhile. Remember, Littlefinger told her about the Blackfish and she did not tell the others how she knew.

I think a good part of it is a shame/embarassment thing about her relationship with Littlefinger, and about needing his help. She only writes for help when it is clear they are in trouble. I think she is doing her best to hide why the Knights of the Vale are willing to intercede and how she knows it.

Furthermore, she genuinely does hope they won't be needed, as having non northerners sway the battle isn't the best look.

All that be said, she is a grade a B......ad Person when she tries to get Jon to wait, and he says wait for what and she doesn't tell him there is an army on the way.
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Posted 20 June 2016 - 07:48 PM

I loved this ep from the first shot where you can see Drogon in the background behind the masters, to Sansa's smile as she walked away at the end. Lemoncakes, anyone?

The Stark banner up.. awesome.

Rickon.. well, even my wife said that if he'd stopped, turned, and waited for Ramsey to shoot he could have run off to the side. I guess there were a lot of other archers waiting though, but still, not even weaving a bit?!

Davos is pissed. I liked the fairly obvious hints about the wildfire, and how Tyrion seems to be diverting Dany from the mad queen road.

But that battle.. best I've seen on screen I think, not the dreadful non existant strategy, but the sheer scale and direction. Especially when Jon was unhorsed and we got those great sweeping shots round as people were taken out all around him.

Will have to watch this again, if only for the epic dragon scene!
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Posted 20 June 2016 - 07:57 PM

I'm not sure a medieval kid would know to zig zag. I mean people who grew up watching TV/movies take it as obvious, of course, but I see no reason to think of it as "common sense" for Rickon.

Re: Sansa, I don't necessarily doubt either of your perspectives, but I do think there's a power consolidation angle to what she's doing. She didn't just learn hard knocks from Ramsay and Littlefinger; before both of them was Cersei, and Sansa's smarter than Cersei but perhaps just as ambitious.

That said, the show -- even now that it's passed the books -- still necessarily simplifies story lines that will be much richer in the books, so maybe she's not as "grey" on the show.
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Posted 20 June 2016 - 10:20 PM

I don't think it's something you need to be taught... he was told to run, as he sees Ramsey nocking an arrow. Who wouldn't be expecting one through the shoulders almost immediately?

I loved the look on Ramseys face when the knights arrived. He's so thinking 'who the hell are they?'

This post has been edited by Traveller: 20 June 2016 - 10:22 PM

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 10:32 PM

It's definitely something that needs to be taught.
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Posted 20 June 2016 - 10:41 PM

I rather think that zigging or zagging was one of the last thing going through his mind when he was told to run. It's easy to say he should have zigzagged when you're in front of the screen. :)
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#934 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 11:48 PM

View Postworry, on 20 June 2016 - 10:32 PM, said:

It's definitely something that needs to be taught.

And Rickon was a little kid when they left Winterfell, so he hadn't had any kind of battle training at all.

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 12:18 AM

View Postworry, on 20 June 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

I'm not sure a medieval kid would know to zig zag.

If I remember right, this book tells a very old Asian folk tale about a slave who earned his freedom by running across a field while being shot at with a bow. He would jump to the side every time he heard the twang of a bow. Said he learned it by observing rabbits. Leads me to think people knew about it way back when. At least in our universe!
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Posted 21 June 2016 - 12:36 AM

Oh I'm sure it might occur to some people to do this -- Bronn for instance -- but how often in this world are people hunted by single individuals with projectiles? Like, when would it even come up? I'm not saying Ramsay invented hunting people (the way Jon Snow clearly invented cunnilingus) but I just don't think it's even in most people's conception, let alone Rickon's. In season 1, Bran is barely learning how to wield a bow and arrow, and Rickon is several years his junior.

On top of that, Jon's rushing for him gave him a straight ahead target to run toward. There was probably nothing going on in his head at all besides Jon Snow's hand.
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Posted 21 June 2016 - 12:50 AM

View Postworry, on 21 June 2016 - 12:36 AM, said:

Oh I'm sure it might occur to some people to do this -- Bronn for instance -- but how often in this world are people hunted by single individuals with projectiles? Like, when would it even come up? I'm not saying Ramsay invented hunting people (the way Jon Snow clearly invented cunnilingus) but I just don't think it's even in most people's conception, let alone Rickon's. In season 1, Bran is barely learning how to wield a bow and arrow, and Rickon is several years his junior.

On top of that, Jon's rushing for him gave him a straight ahead target to run toward. There was probably nothing going on in his head at all besides Jon Snow's hand.


Rickon was going to zag but Jon screwed it up by riding straight for him, so Rickon went for speed instead.

Thanks a lot, bastard!
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When Venge's turn comes, he will get a yes from Mess, Dolmen, Nevyn and Venge but a no from the 3 fascists and me. **** with my Government, and i'll **** with yours
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Posted 21 June 2016 - 12:51 AM

Zig zagging doesn't guarantee you will survive. Apocalypto anyone:


Also, put yourself in Rickon's shoes. You'd be scared witless. Just think about all the horrible things that were threatened upon him off screen. You're first reaction would be to book a straight line towards Jon. I doubt you'd be considering various arrow avoidance strategies at that point.

Also, one of my favorite scenes from the episode.

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#939 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 01:40 AM

I was reading this interview with the director for eps 9 and 10 and I was reminded of how cool it was when I realized the shouting voices used sort of as percussion in the trailer were taken from the shieldwall scene, which was actually included in the trailer.

Also interesting is that the scene with Jon being trampled wasn't scripted; there was some other dire moment scripted for him but they couldn't pull it off due to lots of rain and cramped scheduling, so the director went off script and came up with the trampling thing.

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 04:41 AM

So Smalljon died, but did the Karstark? Just an absolute shot in the dark, but if he was taken captive I'm gonna say Sansa spares him in exchange for reestablishiing house loyalty. This would be in line with her greyer-than-other-Starks status, and put her in direct contrast to the hard line of Ned, Robb, Jon Snow, and even Dany (the Mossador execution last season).
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