[Traveller]

Nevyn, on 17 June 2016 - 02:26 AM, said:

Traveller, on 16 June 2016 - 09:25 PM, said:

Cause, on 16 June 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

For the time period multiple stab wounds to the gut would be lethal. We are talking about partially digested fecal matter leaking into your thoracic cavity. That's not including a dump into a sewer canal.

Gut stabs and gut shots were the worst wounds you could get - painful and leading to a slow agony from peritonitis. Which the waif chose on purpose for that reason. I wish that whole story arc had been resolved in any number of better ways.

So what you are saying is that the show with dragons and magic and ice zombies and wolves the size of horses is being unrealistic?

Of course! The dragons, magic and ice zombies all have their own physical limitations, as established in the books and the show. The humans are, from what we've seen, the same as humans in rl. The Walkers are weak to dragonglass and Valyrian steel - to see Arya gut stabbed and then run and fight is like seeing a Walker falling to a regular weapon or Sansa suddenly using magic.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 17 June 2016 - 09:56 AM

[Slow Ben]

3 episodes behiiiiinddd!!!!!


RL gettin in the way of my nerdery.

[End of Disc One]

Nevyn, on 17 June 2016 - 02:26 AM, said:

Traveller, on 16 June 2016 - 09:25 PM, said:

Cause, on 16 June 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

For the time period multiple stab wounds to the gut would be lethal. We are talking about partially digested fecal matter leaking into your thoracic cavity. That's not including a dump into a sewer canal.

Gut stabs and gut shots were the worst wounds you could get - painful and leading to a slow agony from peritonitis. Which the waif chose on purpose for that reason. I wish that whole story arc had been resolved in any number of better ways.

So what you are saying is that the show with dragons and magic and ice zombies and wolves the size of horses is being unrealistic?

These kinds of arguments are the worst, honestly.

[Nevyn]

Traveller, on 17 June 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

The humans are, from what we've seen, the same as humans in rl.

Except for magic, resurrection, and the occasional immunity to fire.

Jamie survived his infection without losing the whole arm. How? Because Qyburn was enough of an explanation. The hound has trauma everywhere, rolls in the dirt, and is left on his own to die, but its realistic because his recovery is offscreen?

Suspend your disbelief. Arguing about how stomach wounds should work is absurd nitpickery.

[Gorefest]

That's a very nice idea, if not for the fact that we have had other characters dying from a single gut stab on the show, and Arya was not receiving any sort of magical healing at any point after receiving various stabs and rolling around in mucky water as well. So using suspension of disbelief on this particular point is an awful cop-out.

I am however comfortable with accepting her wearing some extra layers to reduce the level of puncturing. After accepting that my envisioned cool 'Arya = Jaqen' twist didn't play out, I'm happy with the following rationale:


Arya knows that she will be hunted down as soon as she leaves Jaqen. She also knows that she will never be free of the faceless men unless she can satisfy Jaqen's final demand: a head is needed. She also knows that in normal circumstances, she is no match for anyone that the faceless men send after her, including the waif. However, she has one advantage over the waif and that is her newly learned ability to fight in the dark.

So she retrieves Needle and sets up a 'kill room'. Then she goes out in the streets to lure the waif out. No clue how she obtained that bucket load of cash, but hey, maybe she stole from the temple coffers. She leaves Needle in the kill room because the sword would only burden her down and it would alert the waif to the fact that Arya is expecting trouble.

Unfortunately the waif turns out to be more efficient than Arya expected and she manages to catch her off-guard. But because Arya was already on high alert, she manages to avoid the worst of the stabs with some help of padding under her clothes and she manages to escape. She then goes to the actress that she was originally meant to kill because: 1) the actress will help her recover a bit and mend the worst wounds, 2) Arya knows that the actress was already marked for death anyway and the faceless men would have gotten to her eventually, and 3) it would be a logical place for the waif to go and look for Arya eventually so that Arya can renew the lure. Once the waif picks her trail back up and kills the actress (which was inevitable anyway), Arya proceeds with the rest of her initial plan and lures the waif to the kill room where she retrieves Needle and plunges everything into darkness.

She then delivers to Jaqen a head, as he demanded, which hopefully means that she is free from further pursuit. And all's well that ends well.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 17 June 2016 - 03:26 PM

[QuickTidal]

Nevyn, on 17 June 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

Traveller, on 17 June 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

The humans are, from what we've seen, the same as humans in rl.

Except for magic, resurrection, and the occasional immunity to fire.

Jamie survived his infection without losing the whole arm. How? Because Qyburn was enough of an explanation. The hound has trauma everywhere, rolls in the dirt, and is left on his own to die, but its realistic because his recovery is offscreen?

Suspend your disbelief. Arguing about how stomach wounds should work is absurd nitpickery.

This is a bit different. Arya is clearly stabbed in the gut multiple times (Also, I'm not sure what's with this show and wanting stabbings to look like they are happening on Oz and are a shanking) and then falls immediately into the equivalent of a Venetian canal. One does not swim in a canal. Ever. This is a GLARING plot point that stands out a mile. Unless she was resurrected (which has been posited above), then it will continue to stand out a mile.

There is a difference between the ones you've noted, and Arya's clearly on screen stuff...not the least of which is the jump cut from the end of the episode where she falls into the canal and crawls out wounded...to the next ep where she gasps awake being tended by the actress. That's a pretty deliberate sequence...as we skip over any recovery. Jaime's suffering and fever is all shown during his time in capture before he gets to someone who can help (one expects the guys would have at least cauterized it with fire otherwise he'd have bled out). We don't see that with Arya. The Hounds is off camera for a purpose (serving the fakeout that he's died of his wounds) and as such we don't need to know how he survived.

It's not about nitpicking how stomach wounds should work. She received a likely mortal set of wounds in a very deliberate and obvious way, and came back on the next ep right as rain. Unless there's a magical resurrection involved, then it's an absolutely bullshit narrative fuckup.

[Abyss]

Clearly the Waif missed all vital organs and blood vessels because she wanted Arya to suffer.

...yeah, THAT'S the ticket.

[Nevyn]

QuickTidal, on 17 June 2016 - 04:03 PM, said:

There is a difference between the ones you've noted, and Arya's clearly on screen stuff...not the least of which is the jump cut from the end of the episode where she falls into the canal and crawls out wounded...to the next ep where she gasps awake being tended by the actress. That's a pretty deliberate sequence...as we skip over any recovery. Jaime's suffering and fever is all shown during his time in capture before he gets to someone who can help (one expects the guys would have at least cauterized it with fire otherwise he'd have bled out). We don't see that with Arya. The Hounds is off camera for a purpose (serving the fakeout that he's died of his wounds) and as such we don't need to know how he survived.

That makes zero sense. The hound having mortal wounds and surviving due to offscreen treatment is not a hole because its a fake out? He is meant to be so obviously a goner, that no explanation is needed how a goner would survive? Or is it elapsed time that makes it ok? If Aryan jumped in the canal and was offscreen for 10 episodes, would it not be a plot hole?

Quote

It's not about nitpicking how stomach wounds should work. She received a likely mortal set of wounds in a very deliberate and obvious way, and came back on the next ep right as rain. Unless there's a magical resurrection involved, then it's an absolutely bullshit narrative fuckup.

You say its not about nitpicking how stomach wounds should work. And then right after you nitpick.

Classifying the woulds as 'likely mortal' is imposing your understanding of real world medical knowledge on a fantasy world. Upthread they even noted the medical conditions that would be suffered. That is nitpicking.

The presumptions of infection based on being in the canal are further nitpicking. Again, imposing our medical knowledge on what you saw and ignoring that this fantasy world has any number of handy explanations for such recoveries. Also, while her suffering may not match real world expectations, she was not right as rain, and we have no idea how much time has elapsed. And if Daenarys can be immune to fire for no reason ever given, why can't Arya be immune to sepsis?

I mean, we don't even have to go to other characters. Look at the head wounds Arya got from training with the Waif. Show those strikes to a doctor, and feel free to discuss the likely injuries, concussions, and recovery time. And then how long on the show you even see bruises.

Again, suspend your disbelief.

These factoids are being picked on because it feels like they cut the overall story short to move things along (and cheaped out on the budget) so people didn't get an epic buildup and clash. But the injury recovery is just an odd detail to fixate on.

[QuickTidal]

The Hounds wounds are not explicit at all (watch the scene again if you must). Brienne bites his ear (there is some flesh gone and blood) beats the shit out of him, and then he falls off a short cliff edge and rolls to a stop. If anything Arya assumes he'll die of internal bleeding. Most of what he has are scrapes and bruises, and such. The amount of internal injury is not shown, nor is it required. His death or survival is a "go either way" thing. No one stabs him, Brienne doesn't even get a sword his in before they start brawling. The fact that he survived is as believable as if he died. It is a completely different scene. That's why his offscreen death/survival is not something we need to know. He's Schrodinger's Hound with the info we were left with.

Dude, a clear set of circumstances (in this case serious wounds that are on screen and the aftermath of that [the dirty ass canal]) that would denote a pretty much unanimous result is not me nitpicking. It's basically what I would have said if ANYONE on the show got shanked and then thrown into sewage. Neither of your examples fit into that category. As I said, we see Jaime's illness after his hand gets chopped (more than one ep of it in fact), his fever, discomfort, lack of strength. Whether he only lost his hand or the whole arm is beside the point really after that. The Hound's scene is as noted above.

And see, I'm normally MR. Suspend-my-Disbelief (ask others on here, I'm willing to let a LOT fly and be lax with internal consistency)...on most things I watch and read. But when it's THIS glaring an issue, it stands out like a sore thumb. In fact nothing else on that ep stands out as much as this to me.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 17 June 2016 - 05:50 PM

[Nevyn]

QuickTidal, on 17 June 2016 - 05:36 PM, said:

The Hounds wounds are not explicit at all (watch the scene again if you must). Brienne bites his ear (there is some flesh gone and blood) beats the shit out of him, and then he falls off a short cliff edge and rolls to a stop. If anything Arya assumes he'll die of internal bleeding. Most of what he has are scrapes and bruises, and such. The amount of internet injury is not shown, nor is it required. His death or survival is a "go either way" thing. No one stabs him, Brienne doesn't even get a sword his in before they start brawling. The fact that he survived is as believable as if he died. It is a completely different scene. That's why his offscreen death/survival is not something we need to know. He's Schrodinger's Hound with the info we were left with.

Dude, a clear set of circumstances (in this case serious wounds that are on screen and the aftermath of that [the dirty ass canal]) that would denote a pretty much unanimous result is not me nitpicking. It's basically what I would have said if ANYONE on the show got shanked and then thrown into sewage. Neither of your examples fit into that category. As I said, we see Jaime's illness after his hand gets chopped (more than one ep of it in fact), his fever, discomfort, lack of strength. Whether he only lost his hand or the whole arm is beside the point really after that. The Hound's scene is as noted above.

And see, I'm normally MR. Suspend-my-Disbelief (ask others on here, I'm willing to let a LOT fly and be lax with internal consistency)...on most things I watch and read. But when it's THIS glaring an issue, it stands out like a sore thumb. In fact nothing else on that ep stands out as much as this to me.

Both of the Hounds hands are cut by a dirty blade and never patched. He is struck in the head with great force multiple times by a rock that must weigh several pounds. The cliff he falls down is a 20-30 ft dead drop, before tumbling further down a hill in armor no less. When Arya finds him, he also has a giant open gash in his leg (potentially from a compound fracture, but either way, too wide to effectively tourniquet. And he is in the middle of nowhere, and after Arya leaves, there is no one to be seen. Anyone happening by will likely not have medical supplies with them. And the hounds own self assessment is that he is dying. He doesn't beg Arya to go for help, but to kill him fast.


If you want to compare medical likelihoods, not having your intestine ruptured by a knife (a shallow cut and then two stabs with a twist), and then not getting an infection from unsanitary water after having someone clean your wounds is no less likely than the hound surviving. In fact, the hound should probably have probably had a massive hemorrhage and died from his blunt trauma wounds before he even fell off the cliff.

[QuickTidal]

Nevyn, on 17 June 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 17 June 2016 - 05:36 PM, said:

The Hounds wounds are not explicit at all (watch the scene again if you must). Brienne bites his ear (there is some flesh gone and blood) beats the shit out of him, and then he falls off a short cliff edge and rolls to a stop. If anything Arya assumes he'll die of internal bleeding. Most of what he has are scrapes and bruises, and such. The amount of internet injury is not shown, nor is it required. His death or survival is a "go either way" thing. No one stabs him, Brienne doesn't even get a sword his in before they start brawling. The fact that he survived is as believable as if he died. It is a completely different scene. That's why his offscreen death/survival is not something we need to know. He's Schrodinger's Hound with the info we were left with.

Dude, a clear set of circumstances (in this case serious wounds that are on screen and the aftermath of that [the dirty ass canal]) that would denote a pretty much unanimous result is not me nitpicking. It's basically what I would have said if ANYONE on the show got shanked and then thrown into sewage. Neither of your examples fit into that category. As I said, we see Jaime's illness after his hand gets chopped (more than one ep of it in fact), his fever, discomfort, lack of strength. Whether he only lost his hand or the whole arm is beside the point really after that. The Hound's scene is as noted above.

And see, I'm normally MR. Suspend-my-Disbelief (ask others on here, I'm willing to let a LOT fly and be lax with internal consistency)...on most things I watch and read. But when it's THIS glaring an issue, it stands out like a sore thumb. In fact nothing else on that ep stands out as much as this to me.

Both of the Hounds hands are cut by a dirty blade and never patched. He is struck in the head with great force multiple times by a rock that must weigh several pounds. The cliff he falls down is a 20-30 ft dead drop, before tumbling further down a hill in armor no less. When Arya finds him, he also has a giant open gash in his leg (potentially from a compound fracture, but either way, too wide to effectively tourniquet. And he is in the middle of nowhere, and after Arya leaves, there is no one to be seen. Anyone happening by will likely not have medical supplies with them. And the hounds own self assessment is that he is dying. He doesn't beg Arya to go for help, but to kill him fast.


If you want to compare medical likelihoods, not having your intestine ruptured by a knife (a shallow cut and then two stabs with a twist), and then not getting an infection from unsanitary water after having someone clean your wounds is no less likely than the hound surviving. In fact, the hound should probably have probably had a massive hemorrhage and died from his blunt trauma wounds before he even fell off the cliff.

Meh, I have no issue with the Hound's wounds being survived compared to what we saw with Arya. Sorry man. It is what it is. You're welcome to see it a different way though.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 17 June 2016 - 06:45 PM

[Traveller]

QuickTidal, on 17 June 2016 - 05:36 PM, said:

The Hounds wounds are not explicit at all (watch the scene again if you must). Brienne bites his ear (there is some flesh gone and blood) beats the shit out of him, and then he falls off a short cliff edge and rolls to a stop. If anything Arya assumes he'll die of internal bleeding. Most of what he has are scrapes and bruises, and such. The amount of internal injury is not shown, nor is it required. His death or survival is a "go either way" thing. No one stabs him, Brienne doesn't even get a sword his in before they start brawling. The fact that he survived is as believable as if he died. It is a completely different scene. That's why his offscreen death/survival is not something we need to know. He's Schrodinger's Hound with the info we were left with.

Dude, a clear set of circumstances (in this case serious wounds that are on screen and the aftermath of that [the dirty ass canal]) that would denote a pretty much unanimous result is not me nitpicking. It's basically what I would have said if ANYONE on the show got shanked and then thrown into sewage. Neither of your examples fit into that category. As I said, we see Jaime's illness after his hand gets chopped (more than one ep of it in fact), his fever, discomfort, lack of strength. Whether he only lost his hand or the whole arm is beside the point really after that. The Hound's scene is as noted above.

And see, I'm normally MR. Suspend-my-Disbelief (ask others on here, I'm willing to let a LOT fly and be lax with internal consistency)...on most things I watch and read. But when it's THIS glaring an issue, it stands out like a sore thumb. In fact nothing else on that ep stands out as much as this to me.

^^ This. That moment was meant to shock, and it did - getting slices from blades is not in the same league as hilt deep gut stabs.

When I was watching I thought that's it, she's dead. Then we got all those great rumors with other explanations for what happened.. and not one of them panned out. I'd have been happy with a 3 second shot of her pulling protective padding out after, but her paleness and apparent weakness when the actress is looking after her shows that she was really stabbed. You need surgery to fix that, a big incision and washouts, not just a stitch to close the holes, then hey you can spring up and run.

Asking to suspend my disbelief just doesn't fly in this case, they just handled it badly.

[Terez]

So what about when Arya drank the poison water? Shouldn't she have died then? And wasn't that very deliberate?
What do we say to the god of death? Not today.
(I am almost on the Jaqen=Syrio train.)

[Terez]

Bring on the Battle of the Bastards.

AGOT said:

Frog-faced Lord Slynt sat at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king pronounced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. But a voice inside her whispered, There are no heroes, and she remembered what Lord Petyr had said to her, here in this very hall. “Life is not a song, sweetling,” he’d told her. “You may learn that one day to your sorrow.”

[Binder of Demons]

I know several people who worked on the next episode, and it's been killing them not to say anything. Now admittedly they were only extras and the like, but they were there for all this season so they could have dropped many a spoiler thus far.

Apparently the security for the potential spoilers was really intense last season, to the point of having water-marked scripts with your name on them which you had to sign in and out every day. Guess they really didn't want that Jon Snow dead or alive reveal out early.

You'd expect that Ramsey will get his comeuppance either this episode, or in the season finale, but I wonder how bad the damage will be to Jon Snow's army. After all the plot shenanigans to get to this point it would be really out of left field for Jon Snow to die in this battle.


On a totally unrelated note, I have this nagging question at the back on my mind regarding the whole Arya/Syrio/Jaqen thing. I know Meryn Trant was on Arya's list, but it always seemed like such a coincidence that he should end up in Braavos for her to kill. And considering Ser Meryn was the last person to see Syrio alive (that we know of), if Syrio=Jaqen, then isn't it likely that he killed Ser Meryn and took his face to escape? I know plot holes abound with this theory, like how/why did Jaqen get captured for Arya to free him later? And this would beg the question, who did Arya kill that looked like Ser Meryn (or was it a test of some sort?). OR maybe i'm drowsy and my brain is addled from hayfever medication. I guess this is all a way for me to hold on to the fact that i think Syrio survived somehow

[Terez]

Quote

As the Starks prepare to fight, Davos loses something dear. Ramsay plays a game. Daenerys faces a choice.

I wonder what Davos loses. What does he even have to lose at this point? I wonder if this signifies him learning about Shireen. These summaries often end up being ironic understatements. Wonder what Dany's choice is, whether it has something to do with Tyrion or not. I imagine Ramsey's game has something to do with Rickon.

[JPK]

I'll bet Davos loses his knuckles.

[Terez]

He already lost those in the Blackwater.

[JPK]

Did he? I forgot about that.

[Terez]

JPK, on 18 June 2016 - 01:12 AM, said:

Did he? I forgot about that.

It's emphasized more in the books. He's always reaching up to touch them and finding them gone. In the show, I can't remember how often he mentioned it but you can see that they're not around his neck when he washes up on that island.