[Andorion]

Briar King, on 25 November 2015 - 02:49 AM, said:

Haha another thing I was waiting on. Keep reading. Children are easy to pass off especially ones that are dashed against a wall. He's the heir's heir so I'm sure they had back up plans. So that would make Dany's status as Queen legally null. Keep reading.

What time is it in India?

8.30 AM. This makes everybodys status null. Lannister incest doesn't matter any more because Roberts kingship itself was illegitimate.

Dammit I thought those deaths were the one thing I could be sure about

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 25 November 2015 - 02:57 AM, said:

8.30 AM. This makes everybodys status null. Lannister incest doesn't matter any more because Roberts kingship itself was illegitimate.

Not really. The Baratheon line took the throne through successful revolt. Killing heirs is about not having anyone for traditionalists and enemies to rally around for another revolution. Legitimacy does not matter because it is a question of force. So the legitimacy of Baratheon heirs matters in the Baratheon succession.

But a potentially alive Aegon would change things for Dany, because all the Westerosi allies she could possibly gain would recognize Aegon's claim over her own.

[Andorion]

Nevyn, on 25 November 2015 - 03:08 AM, said:

Andorion, on 25 November 2015 - 02:57 AM, said:

8.30 AM. This makes everybodys status null. Lannister incest doesn't matter any more because Roberts kingship itself was illegitimate.

Not really. The Baratheon line took the throne through successful revolt. Killing heirs is about not having anyone for traditionalists and enemies to rally around for another revolution. Legitimacy does not matter because it is a question of force. So the legitimacy of Baratheon heirs matters in the Baratheon succession.

But a potentially alive Aegon would change things for Dany, because all the Westerosi allies she could possibly gain would recognize Aegon's claim over her own.

But I thought that Robert took the throne based on two claims: Right of conquest and Targaryen blood in the Baratheon family due to an earlier marriage. This knocks out one of the two claims.

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 25 November 2015 - 03:29 AM, said:

Also you would figure that Aegon a game changer would make S5. It would be the perfect time to introduce him but I suspect like UnCat he's just not going to be in show at all and furthers the possibility of the 2 different endings theory.

Ok your only 11 hrs ahead of me. I was thinking you were atleast 13.

I was thinking the same thing - how could this not make Season 5? I suppose they are simplifying things.

So Aegon and Dany are two heads of the three headed dragon?

My country has only one time zone taken from the centre of the country. So technically I should probably be further ahead as I am way out East

[Andorion]

Dance with Dragons

Stannis just burnt four people. I was halfway sure he would burn Asha but apparently not.

So Dany has flown off on Drogon - and the whole Meeren mess makes way more sense in the book as all the different complicating factors are much better outlined. But I still think that the storyline could have been trimmed. The whole scene with Xharo was repeating the same lines 5 times.

Also Tyrion's story could have been shorter. I am not sure where this Penny ting is going but I don't like it.

Things are moving slowly at the Wall as well but I feel the setup more clearly there. Things are very combustible.

The Winterfell storyline with Mance and the Spearwives was awesome.

Cersei's snapshot of KL was interesting. No idiotic semi-trial for Margaery full of gaping plot holes in the book. I really want to Mountainstein get violent on some Sparrows!

Mel's PoV was very interesting in the way it showed how vague her visions are. See just sees images, which she has to interpret. This will probably be useful to know later

That little Arya PoV was a relief. The blindness was not a punishment but another lesson. Good.

Oddly enough the PoV I like most is Victarion. The man is badass.

Overall I think this book could have been shorter. Too much description/repetition,

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 26 November 2015 - 04:16 AM, said:

So your done?

No, quite a bit still to go. Victarion is approaching Meeren right now and just burnt 7 girls alive. This burning alive thing is irritating

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Andorion, on 26 November 2015 - 04:02 AM, said:

Overall I think this book could have been shorter. Too much description/repetition,

Amen!

The fact Aegon appears to have been cut from the series always made me wonder if the fan theory that he's fake (see Forum of Ice and Fire, there's a very lengthy debate on it) had some more weight than I originally thought. Then again, the show has to streamline and it could just be they decided it was a thread they didn't need and could possibly give any of the key upcoming events for Aegon to another character to get the job done.

[Andorion]

Finished Dance With Dragons

That was a very very confusing ending

Let start with the least confusing parts

Dany ends up in the Dothraki sea and is found by a Khalasar, but she has Drogon with her. This is a big difference from the show and I think this will have a big impact on her future treatment, Wonder if she will go to Vas Dothrak.

Barristan survives the book and is about to start a war with the Yunkai. Daario is probably dead

Tyrion and Jorah are with the Second Sons, no clue how that is going to work out

Quentyn is dead. This is probably one of the most idiotic storylines and could easily have been omitted, The guy wanted to steal dragons. Like they were horses or maybe tigers, Why he thought that would work and it would be a good idea is beyond me.

Victarion is still hanging around with that horn Couldn't his story have been resolved instead?

Kevan dies, Pycelle dies, Varys is still there and as dangerous as ever. I suppose the Mountain is going to rampage through the trial and Cersei is going to start up some reign of terror.

The North is so confusing

Was Stannis defeated? Is he dead? What about that Braavosi who popped in to see him? Was the letter from Ramsey fake or not? Is Roose dead?

So Jon dies at the end. This is the only spot where book and show touch. I guess Mel resurrects him.

This book was far better than book 4 but it could have been 30% shorter and a lot of the fluff could have been trimmed in favour of resolving things

This post has been edited by Andorion: 26 November 2015 - 01:51 PM

[Gorefest]

Is Quentyn dead? Do we actually know for sure?

Did you get Manderly's pies?

[Andorion]

Gorefest, on 26 November 2015 - 05:00 PM, said:

Is Quentyn dead? Do we actually know for sure?

Did you get Manderly's pies?

Quentyn is dead. Confirmed. They were discussing what to do with his body.

Pies - Rat King reference - I thought who did Manderly kill and cook? My candidates are the Freys who went missing.

The letter is a fake, right? Because if Stannis is dead, that would make the whole Braavosi banker angle pointless

[Gorefest]

Andorion, on 26 November 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

Pies - Rat King reference - I thought who did Manderly kill and cook? My candidates are the Freys who went missing.

Nice little Easter Egg, I thought. I must confess I completely missed it on my read and had to have it pointed out to me.

Quote

The letter is a fake, right? Because if Stannis is dead, that would make the whole Braavosi banker angle pointless

Nobody knows. 'Who wrote the pink letter?' is one of the biggest fan discussions, right up there with R+L=J

The most likely authors are Ramsay, Mance, Stannis, and Asha. All of them have motive and opportunity. Personally I was all for the Stannis theory until they killed him off in the tv show.

[Andorion]

I have heard of R+l=J, I think its pretty likely.

I don't know how Tyrion can be a Targ. If Aerys took Joanna on their marriage night then logically it should be Jaime and Cersei who are Targs. Tyrion was born much later. Would Tywin not have noticed the Mad King visiting his wife at Casterly Rock?


I am split between Aegon being a fake or real. I think he was sprung on the readers pretty suddenly and frankly neither Silver hair nor purple eyes are any guarantee of authenticity as those are Valyrian traits and quite a few people have them

[Andorion]

Is there something wrong with their website? A lot of threads have posts where somebody quotes somebody and doesn't say anything themselves. Also there was this speculation thread called Heresy which apparently lost all its previous material

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 27 November 2015 - 05:17 AM, said:

I think so. I tried to get into threads about Tyrion being Targ and they weren't loading.

King was infatuated with her, he has white blonde hair, an eye defect that another Targ had, he's obsessed with dragons, Tywin says "Since I can't prove you are not mine..." at one point and then "You are no son of mine'" right before he takes a bolt on the shitter. There's lots of hints he's Danys brother Jons uncle.

That would be really cool, especially if he rides up in front of Cersei on a Dragon!

Whats your user name on Westeros?

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 27 November 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

I haven't been on it yrs so no name. I was searching using DuckDuckGo to try and link stuff for you but no go. I really do think that's the 3 heads though which means that Aegon probably dies and wasn't in show. Why cast his role on the very cut streamlined show ya know.

He probably dies and is fake too

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Briar King, on 27 November 2015 - 05:17 AM, said:

I think so. I tried to get into threads about Tyrion being Targ and they weren't loading.

King was infatuated with her, he has white blonde hair, an eye defect that another Targ had, he's obsessed with dragons, Tywin says "Since I can't prove you are not mine..." at one point and then "You are no son of mine'" right before he takes a bolt on the shitter. There's lots of hints he's Danys brother Jons uncle.

I can see where this theory has come from, but personally I really hope he isn't. I like the Tyrion/Tywin relationship as it is and for him to not be Tywin's son cheapens it for me - particularly with Genna Lannister saying to Jaime something along the lines of Tyrion being the one who is most like Tywin.

Although, if it were true, it would open up the symmetry that Jaime and Tyrion unknowingly killed each other's respective fathers, so that's something.

Personally I just feel that one secret identity is enough for the series.

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 27 November 2015 - 06:10 AM, said:

Yeah I remember that line from one of the early books I think. The way Martin is obsessed with genetic traits though Ty comes off as a flag waving Targ even more then Jon who takes after Starks. It's hard to even connect J with Targs besides Dayne being at Tower of Joy. I never really understood the blue flower hint.

There was this story about a previous/mythical King beyond the Wall who stole a Stark daughter and left a blue flower on her pillow. He later returned the daughter and her child. I thought this had something to do with Snow

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Andorion, on 27 November 2015 - 06:16 AM, said:

Briar King, on 27 November 2015 - 06:10 AM, said:

Yeah I remember that line from one of the early books I think. The way Martin is obsessed with genetic traits though Ty comes off as a flag waving Targ even more then Jon who takes after Starks. It's hard to even connect J with Targs besides Dayne being at Tower of Joy. I never really understood the blue flower hint.

There was this story about a previous/mythical King beyond the Wall who stole a Stark daughter and left a blue flower on her pillow. He later returned the daughter and her child. I thought this had something to do with Snow

Also, most scenes where Ned thinks about Lyanna he thinks about the fact she liked blue winter roses.

There's a bit more to Jon than that as I recall (bear with me though, it's been a few years aside from my recent failed re-read).

Ned very pointedly when thinking about Jon or his children never refers to Jon as his son. The quote in question given to Jon is "You have my blood". "You are my son" at that point would have been just as easy, no?

Lyanna is referred to as dying in a bed of blood - which I took to be childbed because of the way childbirth is referred to throughout the books.

You're right on Dayne and the other Kinsguard being there - particular Hightower, who was the commander at the time. By rights they should have been at King's Landing with Aerys, at the Trident with Rhaegar or with Rhaella, Viserys and Daenerys. The only reason (at least in my mind) for them to be there is because they are guarding the heir to the throne - which, with Rhaenys and Aegon dead (as far as we knew at that point) would be Rhaegar and Lyanna's child - which we take to be Jon if we follow R+L = J. I can't thnk of another reason they would be with Lyanna, she's not royalty and otherwise has nothing to do with them.

Also, something some clever soul picked up on on Forum of Ice and Fire (I confess I hadn't spotted it) was that every time Ned thinks about Jon, in very quick succession his thoughts turn to Lyanna and Rhaegar - I think there's a specific order in which he thinks about them each time too but I can't recall right now, and the forum looks very broken or I'd try to find the analysis.

For a slightly weaker point, the reader is constantly reminded that Arya is the only one who looks like Jon. And Ned tells Arya she looks like Lyanna, even though Arya can't see it herself.

There are probably plenty more hints I've forgotten, but that's what I could remember. It's half 6 in the morning in the UK. I am in need of more caffiene

[Andorion]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 27 November 2015 - 06:29 AM, said:

Andorion, on 27 November 2015 - 06:16 AM, said:

Briar King, on 27 November 2015 - 06:10 AM, said:

Yeah I remember that line from one of the early books I think. The way Martin is obsessed with genetic traits though Ty comes off as a flag waving Targ even more then Jon who takes after Starks. It's hard to even connect J with Targs besides Dayne being at Tower of Joy. I never really understood the blue flower hint.

There was this story about a previous/mythical King beyond the Wall who stole a Stark daughter and left a blue flower on her pillow. He later returned the daughter and her child. I thought this had something to do with Snow

Also, most scenes where Ned thinks about Lyanna he thinks about the fact she liked blue winter roses.

There's a bit more to Jon than that as I recall (bear with me though, it's been a few years aside from my recent failed re-read).

Ned very pointedly when thinking about Jon or his children never refers to Jon as his son. The quote in question given to Jon is "You have my blood". "You are my son" at that point would have been just as easy, no?

Lyanna is referred to as dying in a bed of blood - which I took to be childbed because of the way childbirth is referred to throughout the books.

You're right on Dayne and the other Kinsguard being there - particular Hightower, who was the commander at the time. By rights they should have been at King's Landing with Aerys, at the Trident with Rhaegar or with Rhaella, Viserys and Daenerys. The only reason (at least in my mind) for them to be there is because they are guarding the heir to the throne - which, with Rhaenys and Aegon dead (as far as we knew at that point) would be Rhaegar and Lyanna's child - which we take to be Jon if we follow R+L = J. I can't thnk of another reason they would be with Lyanna, she's not royalty and otherwise has nothing to do with them.

Also, something some clever soul picked up on on Forum of Ice and Fire (I confess I hadn't spotted it) was that every time Ned thinks about Jon, in very quick succession his thoughts turn to Lyanna and Rhaegar - I think there's a specific order in which he thinks about them each time too but I can't recall right now, and the forum looks very broken or I'd try to find the analysis.

For a slightly weaker point, the reader is constantly reminded that Arya is the only one who looks like Jon. And Ned tells Arya she looks like Lyanna, even though Arya can't see it herself.

There are probably plenty more hints I've forgotten, but that's what I could remember. It's half 6 in the morning in the UK. I am in need of more caffiene

A very neat summary of R+L=J IMO

Though I would have thought Targaryen hair colour might have manifested in Jon, but apparently not? Same reason Lannister+Baratheon kids should have been brunette?

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 27 November 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

There's actually quite a few Targs with dark hair from non Targ/Targ marriages. You ll have to look up Targ lineage and portraits as none of it in books but it's all canon from Art book and the World book

Does Targaryen blood give dragon controlling ability? It would be neat to see Rhaegal/Viseryon tamed by Tyrion