[acesn8s]

The Stannis character was presented as always doing what was right. His past actions support this, his dialog mostly supports this. The only exceptions are his interactions with Mel. The burning of non-believers, the Lightbringer scene, his daughter, etc. There will be/are repercussions for Stannis not being true to himself and going along with Mel's dog and pony show.

[Nevyn]

worry, on 04 November 2015 - 06:18 AM, said:

The spoiler above is for the books, btw. Skip it till you read them, Ando.

The spoiler also got a detail wrong

[amphibian]

acesn8s, on 04 November 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

The Stannis character was presented as always doing what was right. His past actions support this, his dialog mostly supports this. The only exceptions are his interactions with Mel. The burning of non-believers, the Lightbringer scene, his daughter, etc. There will be/are repercussions for Stannis not being true to himself and going along with Mel's dog and pony show.

I disagree that Stannis wasn't true to himself and that he wanted what was right. As Worrywort said above, he wants his due above all else. He wants the throne because by logic, it should go to him. He doesn't want it because he'd be the best king, he's wanting it because he's The King That Should Be.

Yes, as evidenced by his trip to the Wall, he's willing to do what a king should do - protect the people - but his vision of what a king should do and what's due to him doesn't change all that much because of Melisandre. The Show Stannis was true to himself all the way through and it gave him an army that broke vs. the Boltons. They didn't love him like they loved Robert and when the sacrifice of his daughter occurred, it didn't change anything with his army - and he died because of that.

[Andorion]

So I am someway into Clash of Kings, Theon just returned to Pyke, Stannis is sending out letters

A few things struck me:

Dany essentially sacrificed Miri Maz Dur on Drogo's pyre and hatched her dragons. Now the Lord of Light R'hllor(?) requires sacrifices, especcially burnt offerings. So did Dany unknowingly sacrifice to the LoL and get her dragons? The prophecy Melisandre said about Stannis - Azor Ahai who will pull a flaming sword from the fire could also fit Dany who got her dragons from it. And unlike Stannis she did not get hurt by the fire

All of the kings/factions have their own hangups.

Starks are still concerned about honour and revenge and also the idea of a Northern King. This idea alienates Stannis from them

Stannis is obsessed with his 'right; to the throne and refuses to compromise in any way. Davos makes perfect sense when he says the people would not respond well to a proclamation mentioning the LoL instead of the Seven. Stannis replies that he does not want their love. What he doesn't seem to understand is that he needs their obedience and he can't compel that, so rewording his messages to win people over might be a good idea

Balon Greyjoy can't seem to forget his family's raiding past and wants to return to that though as Theon currently points out, this strategy would make the Greyjoys very eak once Westeros is stable again

The Lannisters seem to be the most realistic of the bunch, but I think Tywin will also have his blind spots, Cersei certainly has a lot


The Sansa PoVs are very different from the show I think they serve to highlight her relatively young age a lot better

The NW smith summed up the Baratheons the best I think: Renly is copper: colourful but useless
Robert is steel, strong but can rust
Stannis is iron, black, hard, but rigid and brittle

Edit: Forgot to add: the way everybody finds a different meaning in the comet is hilarious!

This post has been edited by Andorion: 08 November 2015 - 05:28 PM

[Caira]

Andorion, on 08 November 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

Dany essentially sacrificed Miri Maz Dur on Drogo's pyre and hatched her dragons. Now the Lord of Light R'hllor(?) requires sacrifices, especcially burnt offerings. So did Dany unknowingly sacrifice to the LoL and get her dragons? The prophecy Melisandre said about Stannis - Azor Ahai who will pull a flaming sword from the fire could also fit Dany who got her dragons from it. And unlike Stannis she did not get hurt by the fire

I was also wondering about this, while reading... And still I'm not sure. It might have been R'hllor, it might have been other god from Asshai (as far as I remember, Mirri Maz Duur was teached her healing / magic skills in Asshai).

Besides, Stannis was really interesting character with his inclination to some kind of blind justice and believing in the "law and order", being simultaneously unable to realize that such justice - his justice - is in fact far from any fairness (e.g. Davos) and unjust, not to mention that it makes him undesirable ally and, well, potentially unwanted ruler. Making him politicially writtien off, or at the very least potentially making, since he may count on Melisandre's support.

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 08 November 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

So I am someway into Clash of Kings, Theon just returned to Pyke, Stannis is sending out letters

A few things struck me:

Dany essentially sacrificed Miri Maz Dur on Drogo's pyre and hatched her dragons. Now the Lord of Light R'hllor(?) requires sacrifices, especcially burnt offerings. So did Dany unknowingly sacrifice to the LoL and get her dragons? The prophecy Melisandre said about Stannis - Azor Ahai who will pull a flaming sword from the fire could also fit Dany who got her dragons from it. And unlike Stannis she did not get hurt by the fire

Its possible, but who said the Lord of Light was the only one / thing that can be sacrificed to?

The whole "only death can pay for life" thing seems to transcend specific religions.

[Andorion]

Nevyn, on 09 November 2015 - 05:43 AM, said:

Andorion, on 08 November 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

So I am someway into Clash of Kings, Theon just returned to Pyke, Stannis is sending out letters

A few things struck me:

Dany essentially sacrificed Miri Maz Dur on Drogo's pyre and hatched her dragons. Now the Lord of Light R'hllor(?) requires sacrifices, especcially burnt offerings. So did Dany unknowingly sacrifice to the LoL and get her dragons? The prophecy Melisandre said about Stannis - Azor Ahai who will pull a flaming sword from the fire could also fit Dany who got her dragons from it. And unlike Stannis she did not get hurt by the fire

Its possible, but who said the Lord of Light was the only one / thing that can be sacrificed to?

The whole "only death can pay for life" thing seems to transcend specific religions.

Thats certainly possible, but LoL is the only on-screen story entity so far that actually requires that type of sacrifice

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 09 November 2015 - 06:33 AM, said:

Did Asha/Yara throw you off or did you know show renamed her?

Actually I thought the religious uncle was better than the grope-sister thing the show went with.

I am coming to like book Tyrion more. I can't predict what he will do and he seems to be a greyer character.

But I reread the last part of GoT and when Maester Aemon tells Jon of his Targaryen history, I thought that the show did that much better, mainly due to the awesome acting.

I like Tyrion's counter-slander Stannis idea

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 09 November 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

Thats certainly possible, but LoL is the only on-screen story entity so far that actually requires that type of sacrifice

Are you sure? The faceless men have a similar approach. Why does Jaqen ask Arya for 3 names?

As for the LoL he keeps bringing Dondarrion back without anyone dying.

[Andorion]

Nevyn, on 09 November 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

Andorion, on 09 November 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

Thats certainly possible, but LoL is the only on-screen story entity so far that actually requires that type of sacrifice

Are you sure? The faceless men have a similar approach. Why does Jaqen ask Arya for 3 names?

As for the LoL he keeps bringing Dondarrion back without anyone dying.

I was focussing on the fiery aspect of the sacrifice, but I take your point, Lets see what further reading brings to the table.

And frankly I am a bit confused about the LoL. As you said Dondarrion just keeps on coming back which is a pretty big miracle, but in the show Shireen's burning was apparently not enough. So clearly not a uniform set of standards, maybe even favouritism

I did like the descriptions of the burnt sword and why a burning blade would not be very practical. I found it quite funny actually

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 09 November 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

I was focussing on the fiery aspect of the sacrifice, but I take your point, Lets see what further reading brings to the table.

And frankly I am a bit confused about the LoL. As you said Dondarrion just keeps on coming back which is a pretty big miracle, but in the show Shireen's burning was apparently not enough. So clearly not a uniform set of standards, maybe even favouritism

I did like the descriptions of the burnt sword and why a burning blade would not be very practical. I found it quite funny actually

Partly opinion, partly RAFO on the lord of light.

But as for Shireen, I don't know, thawing out the camp is a pretty big miracle. So one could say the exercise of power worked, but that Mel did not anticipate the defections, which could even be ascribed to the cruelty of the sacrifice.

But yeah, this is mostly opinion. To me, it always felt like the 'death pay for life' is an overriding sorcerous rule. Now, Dani's action could inwittingly involve the LoL because she used fire. But she used fire because she was trying to hatch dragons.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 09 November 2015 - 06:06 PM

[Andorion]

Actually nearing the end of Clash of Kings. I decided to wait till the end. I have a ton of questions about the House of the Undying. Plus Tyrion is better in the book!

[Andorion]

Finished the Clash of Kings

1. Both Arya and Sansa's storylines are quite different. Arya never meets Tywin but Roose Bolton instead. I quite liked following Arya and her storyline is a very effective window into war-devastated Westeros

2. Dolorous Edd is an awesome character at the Wall. I love his ramblings! And Jon quite clearly has Warging powers here. It was never even hinted at in the Show but he does.

3. The book builds up a much more sympathetic Catelyn. Her scenes with her father are genuinely moving. But I am still going to find her Release Jaime logic faulty. Jaime doesn't strangle his cousin in captivity. Huh.

4. Book Tyrion is awesome. I love the shades of grey and black being painted onto his character. He is an extremely interesting protagonist to follow. Shae gets almost no screentime, which is strange, but I suppose GRRM wanted a darker Tyrion.

5. Book Cersei is notably weaker. I guess without the awesome acting,she does lack a bit of something, though no almost poisoning Tommen scene at the Blackwater would also explain it. That scene in the show was immensely powerful.

6. I still don't like Stannis. I don't really see how he is popular. He is hard and gets harder. i don't really see too much complexity in his character, Davos on the other hand continues to be awesome.

7. Targaryen family history is complicated. Which generation did Maester Aemon belong to? The Mad King? Also there seems to be a streak of instability and insanity in the Targaryen bloodline. I wonder if this will be significant for Dany.

8. Bran's storyline, in fact the entire Winterfell storyline is quite different. Also his warging abilities are given in greater detail. Unless I am mistaken, Bran and Rickon split up by the end of the book, right?

9. Dany is notably less badass in the book. She got invited into Qarth and nobody even tried to steal her dragons. The part about the dragons increasing magic was new though.

a. So, like in Malazan dragons are sources of magic?
b. In Dany's House of the Undying vision, Prince Rhaegar was talking about who? He is the one of Ice and Fire? His son? But wasn't the infant Aegon killed? Also three seems to be very important. Three heads? There are three dragons, So Dany will have two other allies?

Her visions were
1. An unconscious woman being raped by creatures. No clue what this signifies
2. Slaughtered feasters. Red Wedding?
3.Old King - Aerys the Mad?
4. Rhaegar said Aegon his son is the promised prince of Ice and Fire, but Aegon died. I have no idea what this means. Also there will be another one, dragon has to have three heads, If Aegon is one, who is it that was born before him, and who remains? Dany?
5. Undying: Daughter of three? Three headed dragon? Three fires, three mounts, three betrayals? A blue fire in the wall of blue ice?

This entire sequence left me totally confused

[acesn8s]

Andorion, on 15 November 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

A blue fire flower in the wall of blue ice?

Fixed that.

I don't want to tread on a lot of the visions as I don't want to spoil anything.

[Felisin Fatter]

8. Yes. This storyline differs between book and show.
9. a: there seems to be a connection, but I'm not sure what's cause and what's effect. But sure looks like dragons and magic are somehow connected (or there's a third thing causing both? I really don't know).
b: Consensus (there are other theories) is that Rheagar is talking to his wife Elia about their son Aegon. They had an older daughter. And he appears to be saying he needs a third child. Elia and both children were murdered by the Mountain, so maybe Rheagar was wrong? Or maybe Dany is the third? Again, who knows with prophecies (maybe all prophecies are bullshit anyway and Rheagar was kinda mad too?? I'd love that option to be true ).


I think most people believe the unconscious woman represents Westeros. Whole essays have been written about this prophecy, so if you don't mind spoilers you could look them up.

[worry]

You into the Bloody Mummers?

[Andorion]

Dany being the third makes no sense as Dany is not Rhaegar's daughter. She is his sister. The Three cannot therefore be siblings.

Did Aegon die? Everybody seems to agree on this, but the events of that night are quite blurry.

Blue Flower in ice - the story that was told of a bard beyond the wall who stole a daughter of Winterfell and left a blue flower in her place - That links Winterfell the Wall and the Wildlings. Only person I can think of who fits this is Jon

Dany has been betrayed once, by the maegi. Was that the betrayal of blood?

Also, forgot to mention this but the two people sent by Illyrio - I am pretty sure one of them is Barristan, but who is the fat warrior eunuch?

Bloody mummers and in fact entire Harrenhal storyline is so different it took me sometime to adjust to it.

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 16 November 2015 - 03:31 AM, said:

That's Fat Belwas(sp) I get a kick out of him.

Yep HH is quite different from show but the way it was done in show is spectacular. Arya and Tywin...yes please! I loved that change.

Keep on speculating on the profecy. I've been looking forward to you getting to this part as it's kinda impossible to get into it in show. I won't tell you if your cold or hot on anything cause that just wouldn't be fun. Rafo but I think you ll have fun doing it

I really missed the Arya Tywin scenes! They were so utterly cool in the show.

I think Blackwater was even more spectacular in the book. The scale of it was larger.

I have already started Storm of Swords. Quite a few chapters in as well.

[worry]

You must have met my favorite character of all by now: Mark Mullendore's monkey.

[Felisin Fatter]

My pet theory about the betrayals (not based on anything but my own contrariness) is that they aren't betrayals of Dany, but betrayals by Dany. The acquiring of the unsullied was pretty treacherous for example. And no, I can't make it fit neatly, the idea just appeals to me