[Andorion]

Nevyn, on 02 November 2015 - 06:01 PM, said:

Andorion, on 02 November 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

Episodes 4-6

2. Ok, that trial is bullshit. No other way to put it. Loras is convicted because Olyvar could describe a birthmark? He is a squire! Squires see their knights naked all the time, its part of the job description! Why didn't anybody mention this?

No trial as of yet. Think of it like an arraignment.

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3. Jon is going to Hardhome. I have a bad feeling.

Whats the worst that could happen?

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3. Ramsay rapes Sansa. As brutal as it was, I have been expecting something like this for some time, and I will once again repeat, why did Petyr put her here?

It is as yet open to interpretation. I will say that this is one of those story arcs different in the show.

Petyr tells Sansa he expects Stannis to win in the North. Maybe that's true, and she won't have to be married long, and will be back in Winterfell. Maybe the north is the only place he thinks he can keep her from Cersei's grasp. Or maybe he has never really cared about her except as a chess piece.

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1. Dornish security is bad . Just really bad. The Princeknew Ellaria had threatened Myrcella, yet Jaime and Bronne just strolled injust because they wore the uniform? They look nothing like Dornish men! And then Ellaria and Co. also just walk in? Do the guards not know where entrances and exits are, or do they not care?

Remember the conversation about changed/shortened storylines on the fringes? Welcome to TV Dorne.

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Valyria

1. The Dragon Tyrion and Jorah saw. Drogon?

Probably

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Overall I have to say, quality in this season seems to havegone down. Too many implausible things happen.

It happens when you are taking books that were already not among the series' best, and then trying to make them more focused while still moving the right pieces to the right places.

1. That wasn't the trial? Ok.
2. Ice Zombie rampage!
3. I am really hoping for more clarification on the Sansa issue soon
4. I hate TV now

[worry]

Andorion, on 03 November 2015 - 02:27 AM, said:

So, to summarize, the main reason Season 5 seems odd, incomplete and occasionally silly is that the book being adapted was bigger and not as good as the previous ones, and this effort caused them to diverge more from the book and therefore they had to make their own stuff up to cover the gaps?

Well the first three books are a pretty high standard, so 4 and 5 not being as good isn't really that big an indictment...and it's definitely not the reason for the divergences (though streamlining IS for sure a reason). For instance, and this I don't think is a spoiler, the seemingly aloof Dany of the show is, in the books, more emotionally fraught and the sausage-making of the politics and practicalities of her situation are explored in fair detail. I don't know if you'll get this very American reference, but the show just didn't want to bother with the C-Span aspects of her storyline (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-SPAN). The books also delve into the war-vacuum created in the middle regions of 7 Kingdoms, post-Mountain and especially post-Tywin. And it isn't pretty or romantic. And for another thing, some characters reached certain points in their arcs faster than others, so there's a lot of traveling (some is world-building, some wheel-spinning) as other events catch up. Some people find these elements quite dull. I think it's fair enough to go with the flow, since 4 and 5 are the natural load-bearers for "middle book syndrome" in this series.

[Andorion]

worry, on 03 November 2015 - 02:45 AM, said:

Andorion, on 03 November 2015 - 02:27 AM, said:

So, to summarize, the main reason Season 5 seems odd, incomplete and occasionally silly is that the book being adapted was bigger and not as good as the previous ones, and this effort caused them to diverge more from the book and therefore they had to make their own stuff up to cover the gaps?

Well the first three books are a pretty high standard, so 4 and 5 not being as good isn't really that big an indictment...and it's definitely not the reason for the divergences (though streamlining IS for sure a reason). For instance, and this I don't think is a spoiler, the seemingly aloof Dany of the show is, in the books, more emotionally fraught and the sausage-making of the politics and practicalities of her situation are explored in fair detail. I don't know if you'll get this very American reference, but the show just didn't want to bother with the C-Span aspects of her storyline (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-SPAN). The books also delve into the war-vacuum created in the middle regions of 7 Kingdoms, post-Mountain and especially post-Tywin. And it isn't pretty or romantic. And for another thing, some characters reached certain points in their arcs faster than others, so there's a lot of traveling (some is world-building, some wheel-spinning) as other events catch up. Some people find these elements quite dull. I think it's fair enough to go with the flow, since 4 and 5 are the natural load-bearers for "middle book syndrome" in this series.

I don't really have a problem with travelling in fantasy as long as its done well. To be fair 70% of Malazan is travelling.

I am going to go into the books as soon as I am done with Shadows of the Apt.

And I didn't get the Cspan reference even though I followed the link

[worry]

This isn't exactly the reality, but by reputation C-SPAN is like raw footage of the political/legislative process, all the boring stuff. Anyway, I don't think you'll have a problem w/ the books, at least along these lines. You clearly have a lot of questions and see the things the show glosses over, and GRRM doesn't. I think you'll have fewer questions and it will come down to whether you believe GRRM's depiction & whether (regardless of plausibility) you enjoy reading through it.

[acesn8s]

Andorion, on 03 November 2015 - 02:27 AM, said:

So, to summarize, the main reason Season 5 seems odd, incomplete and occasionally silly is that the book being adapted was bigger and not as good as the previous ones, and this effort caused them to diverge more from the book and therefore they had to make their own stuff up to cover the gaps?

Let me see if I remember correctly.

Seasons 3 & 4 covered mostly book 3, with Bran's stuff from book 5.
Season 5 covered mostly books 4 & 5.

[Gorefest]

Andorion, on 03 November 2015 - 02:27 AM, said:

So, to summarize, the main reason Season 5 seems odd, incomplete and occasionally silly is that the book being adapted was bigger and not as good as the previous ones, and this effort caused them to diverge more from the book and therefore they had to make their own stuff up to cover the gaps?

Partly. The other part is that season 5 for the first time is starting to drift into territory that the books haven't covered yet. So there is some stuff in the books that has simply been completely omitted from tv seasons 4 and 5, possibly with the plan to wait with those story lines until the next tv season, but also because the tv producers think it makes the story leaner. To cover for some of those omissions, they have 'merged' certain events that in the books are spread out over various characters within one character. As a consequence, they also suddenly have to explain the actions and motives of that character, which sometimes seems completely at odds with what we learned about their behaviour in the books and earlier in the tv show, simply because they have to make the events fit.


Without trying to spoiler you too much but just to illustrate my (and probably other contributor's) problems in this thread at this point: the whole storyline with Sansa and Ramsay is so extremely different in the books (and I won't say why, you'll find out when you read book 4/5), that we cannot even begin to comment on her behaviour and Petyr's logic behind these events. Best thing to do from this point onwards is take the information given in the tv show at face value and don't second-guess events based on what you read previously in the books. The books and the show are becoming two seperate entities.

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 03 November 2015 - 02:27 AM, said:

So, to summarize, the main reason Season 5 seems odd, incomplete and occasionally silly is that the book being adapted was bigger and not as good as the previous ones, and this effort caused them to diverge more from the book and therefore they had to make their own stuff up to cover the gaps?

A fair summary and close enough.

GRRM got caught up in the last couple books with too many stories to manage, all of which he was telling in reasonable detail. And his only solution has been to slowly write his way through it as he tries to bring things more in focus for later books. That process had a negative effect even on the books.

The show by nature of the medium can't afford that many diversions. On top of which, you have TV decisions. Popular characters/actors need more screen time, etc. As a result, a lot of things need to be cut out.

But there aren't just a lot of stories. Those stories are interdependent. And that is the challenge they need to write around. You cut out a 10000 word side story, but that side story moved character X into or out of someplace, and even without that story, you still need to move that character.

[Andorion]

Episodes 6-10

The Wall and Beyond

1. Maester Aemons death really hit me hard. I really liked him as a character and I thought the acting was excellent.

2. Sam finally has sex I thought that was never going to happen

3. The whole Hardhome sequence was epic and beyond epic. Ice Zombie rampage, and the WW out in force. The crowned guy is their king right?

I have a question though: can lny the king raise the dead and turn babies into WW?

4. John dies. I expected something like this, frankly I expected Olly to shoot him. But we get a very Caesarean death. At least, Edd didn't stab him and Jon didn't say You too Edd?

My principal concern is how are they going to carry on the Wall plotline without Jon? Seasons 4 and 5 had him as the primary protagonist.

The North

1. This show is very educational. I didn't know you could unlock doors with corkscrews. And then Sansa dropped it. I really thought she was going to try to stab Ramsey with it, but of course not.

2. Ramsey has a team of superpowered ninjas working for him. There is no other explanation. 20+1 men burnt the food and supplies of an army of 6000 in the middle of a blizzard? There was no mention of Wildfyre or sorcery, they had no accelerants like petrol, how did they start the fire? How did they get it to spread? it had to be a lengthy process, and nobody noticed? Were the guards on drugs?

For some reason Ramsey is being superpowered and it makes no sense.

3. Stannis agrees to burn Shireen. For me this was the low point of the series. I found it disgusting and had trouble watching it. My principal objection is the way it butchers Stannis' character. A couple of episodes back he had finally expressed his love for his daughter, he had rebuffed all attempts by Mel to agree to a sacrifice, he had consistently reprimanded Selyse for her treatment of Shireen, And he burns her. This isn't Stannis. He doesn't sacrifice his beliefs so easily.

4. I think it was clear that the deserters had taken all the horses. So where did Mel get one to ride back to Castle Black? Even Stannis was walking.

5. So Mel's god failed? The snow melted and the blizzard stopped, but Stannis lost.

6. Sansa and Theon should be dead. They fell from the top of Winterfells wall, and the snow had recently been reduced. It seemed to me that the snow at the base of the wall was around 2-3 feet. no way is that enough cushioning.

7. Stannis is probably dead. I believe this is the first time Brienne actually does something this season,

I really hope this is one storyline that diverged from the book

Braavos

This plotline continues to make no sense. Arya kills Meryn Trant which is cool. Mace Tyrell sings opera which is absurd. Arya goes blind and I am totally unsure about who is who. And I am sorry but the unmasking thing reminded me of a Scooby Doo gag.

Dorne

I had an idea that Myrcella wouldn't be allowed home free so easily, and I was very relieved to see that the earlier cringeworthy striptease and poisoning had some purpose to it. But seriously did that girl whisper "bad pussy" to Bronne, or was their something wrong with my audio equipment?

I confess to being utterly baffled by the Sand snakes. Three adolescent(?) girls one of whom is in slut mode and are quite frankly mediocre fighters. They detracted from Ellarias dark avenging anger.

Kings Landing

1. I am assuming that Cersei was arrested on Lancel's testimony? Who else could be Petyrs 'young man'

2. Major power brokers continue to be unable to overpower the Sept. This had to be intentional. (I hope)

3. Cersei's walk of shame. I wouldn't be surprised if she went insane after this especially when she hears of Myrcellas death. And now thatshe has the new improved Mountain I think the faith of the Sparrows will be interesting to watch.

Meeren

1. Jorah and Tyrion very conveniently debut at a rather low grade fight which Dany has come to watch. Why did the large warrior cut Tyrions chain?

2. All of Tyrions scenes are excellent. He enlivens a rather dull storyline.

3. Why were there only a handful of Unsullied guarding Dany? 100 should have been minimum

4. I had though Hizdar may have been linked to the Harpies, but apparently not

5. Why did that idiotic dragon land and fight? if it had continued to fly, no one could have hit it.

6. Can Dany communicate with dragons or not? This has to be clarified

7. Why did Dany drop the ring? Was it a marriage ring?

8. Varys and Tyrion ruling Meeren. Well, it could be worse.


Given the rather noticeable drop in quality this season and the fact that I will have finished the books before season 6 premiers, I am a bit unsure about whether I will watch season 6

[Gorefest]

Andorion, on 03 November 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

Episodes 6-10

The Wall and Beyond

1. Maester Aemons death really hit me hard. I really liked him as a character and I thought the acting was excellent.

"Egg! I dreamed that I was old..."

One of the most poignant and devastating lines in literature, ever. Wow. That trumps even some of SE's gut wrench stuff. Man, the layers and sentiments in that one little line *shudders*.

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3. The whole Hardhome sequence was epic and beyond epic. Ice Zombie rampage, and the WW out in force. The crowned guy is their king right?

Probably. I just took him as one of the chief Others/White Walkers.

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I have a question though: can any the king raise the dead and turn babies into WW?

Nobody knows (at this point). Welcome to the fringe.

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4. John dies. I expected something like this, frankly I expected Olly to shoot him. But we get a very Caesarean death. At least, Edd didn't stab him and Jon didn't say You too Edd?

My principal concern is how are they going to carry on the Wall plotline without Jon? Seasons 4 and 5 had him as the primary protagonist.

Again, welcome to the end of the known universe. We'll have to wait for GRRM (or the tv show) to get on with the story. To me, the whole 'Jon Snow and his wolf' bit had a big 'Farseer trilogy' vibe to it, so who knows, he may have warged into Ghost in a nice rip-off/tip of the hat to Robin Hobb. Or maybe he'll get revived, like they did with Beric Dondarrion (Melissandre is hovering about in the area after all). Or maybe he is dead dead. But really, your guess is as good as mine or any other.

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2. Ramsey has a team of superpowered ninjas working for him. There is no other explanation. 20+1 men burnt the food and supplies of an army of 6000 in the middle of a blizzard? There was no mention of Wildfyre or sorcery, they had no accelerants like petrol, how did they start the fire? How did they get it to spread? it had to be a lengthy process, and nobody noticed? Were the guards on drugs?

Budget constraints. Plus: alternative universe story arc.

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3. Stannis agrees to burn Shireen. For me this was the low point of the series. I found it disgusting and had trouble watching it. My principal objection is the way it butchers Stannis' character. A couple of episodes back he had finally expressed his love for his daughter, he had rebuffed all attempts by Mel to agree to a sacrifice, he had consistently reprimanded Selyse for her treatment of Shireen, And he burns her. This isn't Stannis. He doesn't sacrifice his beliefs so easily.

Well, the easy cop out again is alternative story arc. But to give the tv show some credit, you could say that Melissandre sort of set all this in motion and Stannis was a victim to events as much as its instigator. Plus he does get his come-uppence. But yeah, read the books and wonder about the choices made. It'll be as if you're reading two wholly different stories, really.

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4. I think it was clear that the deserters had taken all the horses. So where did Mel get one to ride back to Castle Black? Even Stannis was walking.

She's a Red Priest. Seriously, that's all I got. What you see is what you get at this point, as it doesn't follow the books at all anymore.

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5. So Mel's god failed? The snow melted and the blizzard stopped, but Stannis lost.

Or maybe Mel/the God of Light isn't interested in Stannis anymore and feels he has served his purpose or is not the Promised One reborn after all? Interesting speculation on that one.

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6. Sansa and Theon should be dead. They fell from the top of Winterfells wall, and the snow had recently been reduced. It seemed to me that the snow at the base of the wall was around 2-3 feet. no way is that enough cushioning.

It wasn't a very high wall and there still was enough snow. Honest, guv.

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7. Stannis is probably dead. I believe this is the first time Brienne actually does something this season, I really hope this is one storyline that diverged from the book.

RAFO. Well, if book 6 ever gets released, that is.

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I confess to being utterly baffled by the Sand snakes. Three adolescent(?) girls one of whom is in slut mode and are quite frankly mediocre fighters. They detracted from Ellarias dark avenging anger.

Budget constraints and plot line merging. In the books, the Sand Snakes are pretty awesome. The Martells are pretty awesome. In the tv show: meh. Very disappointing, as I love the book Martells. But I do appreciate that they have to cut stuff somewhere, even though it makes the larger picture suffer.

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1. I am assuming that Cersei was arrested on Lancel's testimony? Who else could be Petyrs 'young man'

Yep.

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3. Why were there only a handful of Unsullied guarding Dany? 100 should have been minimum

The B-word.

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6. Can Dany communicate with dragons or not? This has to be clarified

Time will tell. I don't think the books are clear on it either at this point still.

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Given the rather noticeable drop in quality this season and the fact that I will have finished the books before season 6 premiers, I am a bit unsure about whether I will watch season 6

Just watch the tv show in its own right and don't compare ore overthink it too much. There definitely is a big deviation from the book story line now, and the tv show really suffers in comparison by oversimplification and short cuts. But it is still by far the most impressive and daring fantasy show out there by a mile. And as a fantasy community I think it is important that we all support such projects, even if they don't meet with the high expectations. Ten years ago nobody would even have dared to dream that there would come a time that television would be brave enough to tackle such massive and complicated epic fantasies. For all its flaws, it still is a bloody impressive spectacle.

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 03 November 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

3. The whole Hardhome sequence was epic and beyond epic. Ice Zombie rampage, and the WW out in force. The crowned guy is their king right?

I have a question though: can lny the king raise the dead and turn babies into WW?

You are caught up now, so you know pretty much what we do about the walkers.

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4. John dies. I expected something like this, frankly I expected Olly to shoot him. But we get a very Caesarean death. At least, Edd didn't stab him and Jon didn't say You too Edd?

My principal concern is how are they going to carry on the Wall plotline without Jon? Seasons 4 and 5 had him as the primary protagonist.

Read the books. Then chat with us. Then we can all theorize together.

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3. Stannis agrees to burn Shireen. For me this was the low point of the series. I found it disgusting and had trouble watching it. My principal objection is the way it butchers Stannis' character. A couple of episodes back he had finally expressed his love for his daughter, he had rebuffed all attempts by Mel to agree to a sacrifice, he had consistently reprimanded Selyse for her treatment of Shireen, And he burns her. This isn't Stannis. He doesn't sacrifice his beliefs so easily.

Actually the 'finally showing his love scene' from earlier was almost certainly inserted to make it all the more shocking when he gave her up. They had to establish that he cared deeply about her in order to show how deeply he had fallen in his belief of Melisandre and her prophecies.

It is indeed a disturbing and controversial scene.

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5. So Mel's god failed? The snow melted and the blizzard stopped, but Stannis lost.

I think it is important to remember that she does not receive faxes with detailed instructions from her god. She sees visions in the fire and she interprets them, and it is up for debate whether her god really is a god.

So did the god fail? Or was she just wrong in her reading of the visions?




As to your overall impression, you are now up to the point where it will be much more interesting to get your reaction once you see what the books do instead.

[Andorion]

I am not going to "reply" directly as the post size would be immense.

Gorefest, my current points are all made taking the TV show in its own right. I have not read any of the books except book 1, so there is no comparison for me, I have nothing to compare the show with. So far I have tried to make all my criticisms from the angle of logic, plausibility and good storytelling. And Season 5 suffered in this respect. If you are going to make an alternate story arc, make it workable and not a disaster like Dorne.

In the entire season, the truly memorable scenes are few:

Maester Aemons death: This gave me goosebumps

Stannis and Shireen: but this is now stained

Hardhome

Regarding Jon Snow and main character deaths:

I had thought of that warging thing, but there is zero evidence he can warg, Now I am not in that group which goes ballistic when a main character dies and starts abusing the creators. No true Malazan reader should do this. But to me, without Jon, the Wall storyline fails. There are no protagonists left there except Davos and Mel. And I don't really see Favos fighting the WW. Love the guy, but no.

Mel resurrecting Jon would be an interesting idea.

Also regarding the god of Light and Stannis, Mel seemed fairly confident on the morning of the battle but then the desertion news came and she scuttled. To me, Mel at Castle Black was depressed and conflicted. Her entire self confidence seemed to have vanished. I think she genuinely believed in Stannis and the withdrawal of divine favour or divine failure (could be either) hit her hard.

BTW forgot to add this,

Valyrian steel can also kill WW? Interesting. So, if 3 or so very skilled swordsmen went up against WW - in - chief, and they all had Valyrian steel, they could kill him?

Also I am thinking about Obsidian arrowheads....

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 03 November 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

Mel resurrecting Jon would be an interesting idea.

Oh, you mean the character who just happened to arrive back at the Wall, who showed a strange interest in Jon and is associated with a religion known for bringing people back from the dead?

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Valyrian steel can also kill WW? Interesting. So, if 3 or so very skilled swordsmen went up against WW - in - chief, and they all had Valyrian steel, they could kill him?

Presumably. But how many dead men would you have to fight through to get to him?

[worry]

Nothing in season 5 pleased me more than the sacrifice of Shireen. Stannis wasn't a believer, he was an addict. Mel is his dealer. 100% of his behavior, from the doting of a father to the betrayal of all he previously stood for, made sense. He conflated his principles and his goals, and what was once making Davos a knight but still chopping off his fingers became this. For all their missteps in S5, B&W get Stannis to his core.

[Andorion]

worry, on 03 November 2015 - 11:33 PM, said:

Nothing in season 5 pleased me more than the sacrifice of Shireen. Stannis wasn't a believer, he was an addict. Mel is his dealer. 100% of his behavior, from the doting of a father to the betrayal of all he previously stood for, made sense. He conflated his principles and his goals, and what was once making Davos a knight but still chopping off his fingers became this. For all their missteps in S5, B&W get Stannis to his core.

I don't see this.

Addicted to what? Power?

So the point of the last two episodes was to show that Stannis was no different from the rest, that he would do anything to get power?

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 04 November 2015 - 02:09 AM, said:

.

Addicted to what? Power?

So the point of the last two episodes was to show that Stannis was no different from the rest, that he would do anything to get power?

Worry is close, but I would not say addicted.

He felt entitled to the throne. But that was not enough to abandon his principles. But over the series since the beginning he has progressively been getting more and more roped in by Melisandre. Every thing she saw that happened, every foe she said she would take out of the way who died, and she said he was not only a king, but a saviour. It is a dangerous thing to start believing prophecies of yourself as a saviour.

The first sacrifices to his principles were smaller. Sending Melisandre to murder a brother he thought had wronged him. Then using a nephew's 'king's blood' to curse his enemies. What began as a man who was harsh but just an unbending became a man who compromised more and more on those harsh ideals. That is a big part of Davos' role. He is the moral barometer, the witness telling you how far Stannis has descended. The sacrifice of Shireen is the ultimate final descent, a tragic pointless sacrifice even his zealot wife cannot life with. But since he is normally so distant, they needed the earlier scene to show just how big a sacrifice that is for him. And then tragically, it is all for nothing, and Stannis faces justice.

This is a debate that can continue once the series is done, but I agree with worry. The Stannis storyline in the show works.

[worry]

I wouldn't define his drug as power, per se. Was power (for its own sake) ever his goal, exactly? A byproduct and a function of, sure. What he wanted on the micro level was his proper due according to the rules of the game as he saw them. On the macro level, he wants it to stop being a game all together. He wants rule of law. He wants everyone to abide by that rule, come what may, and Mel offered him the chance to enforce the law as king. The world as it is simply does not live up to his expectations. Problem is, Mel is playing the game of thrones, and he's her piece. As much as he strained at that fact, it only became more and more true; she had him hooked. The more he came to accept that his/her ends justified their means, the more he was committed to her.

I suppose in that light the point of the last two episodes was that he had become no different than the other players, but I wouldn't quarantine those two eps anyway. They were the natural extension of his entire arc, the transformation of the "honorable" man, if that's what he was, to the shell of that man he becomes. He gives up everything he has in the world for just that little bit more Mel can give him. Fortunately, once Mel is gone, he realizes he's reached rock bottom, and accepts cold turkey (in the form of Brienne's sword, naturally).

[Andorion]

I'll have to get back to this question after I have read the books. I just thought that Stannis was different in another way, that is he and Mel were the only ones who recognized the threat of the WW. when Maester Aemon sends the Ravens and Davos tells Stannis, Mel agreed that this would be the true battle. When Stannis turned up at the Wall, it seemed to me that he had decided that the war their was more important than political power.

I have another question. Jon took Stannis' fleet on the rescue mission to Hardhome. Stannis had an army if around 6-8000 and with non combatants maybe 15000 total. So that's the carrying capacity of his fleet. Now regarding the wildlings 100000 gets mentioned a lot. Let's say that's exaggeration. Let's make it 50000. Mance had around 5-6000 with him, so that's around 40000 at Hardhome. If the WW hadn't attacked, Jon would never have been able to fit every body in. Faulty Maths?

Also the 3000 or so people who deserted Stannis, they are still stuck in the North. How did they expect to escape?

This just occurred to me. The Bolton army seriously outnumbered Stannis. They had to have had around 6000 or so people. Robbs total army had been around 18000. So one of his feudatories had 30% of his total strength? Weird

[Garak]

Well at this point, Bolton actually has almost all the troops of the north. I can't remember how much the show .... showed, but the point of Ramsay marrying Sansa (

Spoiler

in the book it was Sansa's friend Jenny and Bolton claimed she was Arya

)was that Bolton would then have legitimacy and the other lords of the north would owe him fealty. Thus his army size.

[worry]

The spoiler above is for the books, btw. Skip it till you read them, Ando.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

worry, on 04 November 2015 - 03:07 AM, said:

I wouldn't define his drug as power, per se. Was power (for its own sake) ever his goal, exactly? A byproduct and a function of, sure. What he wanted on the micro level was his proper due according to the rules of the game as he saw them. On the macro level, he wants it to stop being a game all together. He wants rule of law. He wants everyone to abide by that rule, come what may, and Mel offered him the chance to enforce the law as king. The world as it is simply does not live up to his expectations. Problem is, Mel is playing the game of thrones, and he's her piece. As much as he strained at that fact, it only became more and more true; she had him hooked. The more he came to accept that his/her ends justified their means, the more he was committed to her.

I suppose in that light the point of the last two episodes was that he had become no different than the other players, but I wouldn't quarantine those two eps anyway. They were the natural extension of his entire arc, the transformation of the "honorable" man, if that's what he was, to the shell of that man he becomes. He gives up everything he has in the world for just that little bit more Mel can give him. Fortunately, once Mel is gone, he realizes he's reached rock bottom, and accepts cold turkey (in the form of Brienne's sword, naturally).

Spot on, for me.