[polishgenius]

Andorion, on 20 July 2015 - 01:48 PM, said:

So ...umm can we not fight about music please? Its one of those things that make me happy.

This seems vaguely relevant.

[QuickTidal]

Terez, on 20 July 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

Music is the language of emotions, not the language of your shopping list.

This right here is something that until I listened to Classical music I could not grasp (I can now). The best example of that revelation came when I first heard/saw an orchestra perform Vivaldi's THE FOUR SEASONS, and the conductor actually explained to use what each section was and how they illustrated not only the seasons themselves, but the emotions you FEEL during those seasons. How the violins in the Winter section in certain parts are meant to convey "ice". Basically he explained (and then I experienced) what it was like to walk through these seasons..without ever leaving my seat. That had a powerful emotional effect on me.

[polishgenius]

I take issue with the claim that music is the language of emotion. It's a language of emotion, but perfectly normal language can be that too. So can, say, painting. Or dance.

But yeah. Just a minor pedantry.

[Andorion]

QuickTidal, on 20 July 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

Terez, on 20 July 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

Music is the language of emotions, not the language of your shopping list.

This right here is something that until I listened to Classical music I could not grasp (I can now). The best example of that revelation came when I first heard/saw an orchestra perform Vivaldi's THE FOUR SEASONS, and the conductor actually explained to use what each section was and how they illustrated not only the seasons themselves, but the emotions you FEEL during those seasons. How the violins in the Winter section in certain parts are meant to convey "ice". Basically he explained (and then I experienced) what it was like to walk through these seasons..without ever leaving my seat. That had a powerful emotional effect on me.

Hearing Four Seasons properly is mind-blowing. Its my go-to classical piece when I need to get my mind of things

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 20 July 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

So, based on QT mentioning her earlier, I've been listening to M.I.A's Matanga today. An excellent album, although going back to the context it was mentioned in, I don't think it's something that blows Kanye's best away or anything. I do like hearing hip-hop that takes a trip outside the mainstream though (one of the reasons I enjoyed Azealia Banks' Broke with Expensive Taste a lot, even though she herself is an incredibly irritating person).

I think what's puts M.I.A. out on top of someone like Kanye (for me) is that she's embraced her Sri Lankan heritage and the struggle her parents endured (and her own...I mean she dated Diplo FFS! LOL!) and it's all in there in every song. Hell, BOOM SKIT is the shortest track on the whole album (at 1:16), but it's the most poignant one about racism in the UK/US and touches on things like "Eat Pray Love" being such utter horsheshit and such a lie to those who consume it and think it's the real deal. She also doesn't sample existing stuff, it's all musically fresh.

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 20 July 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

I take issue with the claim that music is the language of emotion. It's a language of emotion, but perfectly normal language can be that too. So can, say, painting. Or dance.

But yeah. Just a minor pedantry.

Truth. It is A language of emotion, not THE.

[polishgenius]

QuickTidal, on 20 July 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

I think what's puts M.I.A. out on top of someone like Kanye (for me) is that she's embraced her Sri Lankan heritage and the struggle her parents endured (and her own...I mean she dated Diplo FFS! LOL!) and it's all in there in every song. Hell, BOOM SKIT is the shortest track on the whole album (at 1:16), but it's the most poignant one about racism in the UK/US and touches on things like "Eat Pray Love" being such utter horsheshit and such a lie to those who consume it and think it's the real deal. She also doesn't sample existing stuff, it's all musically fresh.

Based on some of this, you a fan at all of K'Naan? He's not similar to M.I.A, particularly, but in what he uses his music for, he is a bit.

His most recent album was rubbish, though. Hoping whatever he does next gets back to form.

[Maark Abbott]

Terez, on 20 July 2015 - 01:33 PM, said:

Studlock, on 20 July 2015 - 01:29 PM, said:

I 'm done arguing music, as a layman, I'm clearly incapable in forming a legitimate opinion on it

I am not the one trying to delegitimize anyone's opinion about music.

Studlock, on 20 July 2015 - 01:29 PM, said:

I'm saying your claim (Hip-hop is uninteresting) has racist and classist implications baked into it--again you're saying an entire art form largely innovated and enjoyed by poor POC worldwide is uninteresting when compared to more traditional western music forms--that's a racist and classict claim.

Except for the fact that jazz was enjoyed by poor POC worldwide, too. And I like that. The difference is 100% musical to me. Some people listen to music for reasons other than the absolute music behind it. I'm not one of those people. Seriously, if you were to ask a random sample of people why they like hip-hop, how many do you think would say it's the notes playing in the background?

Are you even paying attention or putting the slightest bit of thought into your posts?

I don't enjoy jazz (I find it a bit boring, to be honest) but from a compositional standpoint, I have a great deal of respect for it. The interplay between instruments in, say, a Dave Brubeck piece? Not something I'd listen to, but I can see how it's the progenitor for so much of what I listen to today.

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 20 July 2015 - 02:37 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 20 July 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

I think what's puts M.I.A. out on top of someone like Kanye (for me) is that she's embraced her Sri Lankan heritage and the struggle her parents endured (and her own...I mean she dated Diplo FFS! LOL!) and it's all in there in every song. Hell, BOOM SKIT is the shortest track on the whole album (at 1:16), but it's the most poignant one about racism in the UK/US and touches on things like "Eat Pray Love" being such utter horsheshit and such a lie to those who consume it and think it's the real deal. She also doesn't sample existing stuff, it's all musically fresh.

Based on some of this, you a fan at all of K'Naan? He's not similar to M.I.A, particularly, but in what he uses his music for, he is a bit.

His most recent album was rubbish, though. Hoping whatever he does next gets back to form.

I like what I've heard of K'Naan, but I'm not well versed enough on his stuff to form an opinion, but yes he does the same thing with his music as she does. As a Somali born/descended Canadian he's definitely tapping into the same though-reservoir as MIA does.

[Terez]

Maark, on 20 July 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

I don't enjoy jazz (I find it a bit boring, to be honest) but from a compositional standpoint, I have a great deal of respect for it. The interplay between instruments in, say, a Dave Brubeck piece? Not something I'd listen to, but I can see how it's the progenitor for so much of what I listen to today.

I can understand why people might find jazz boring in general. Not only is it old-fashioned, it's also very idiosyncratic. Jazz harmony has worked its way into our modern lexicon of harmony but it's only a tool in a bigger toolset. To a modern ear it can sound like the whole chart is made up of color chords, i.e. chords we throw in our music these days to add color (while the basic harmony is traditional). The instrumentation leans band-nerd and even the guitar is played in what can sound like a dinky way compared to modern electric guitar. The bass is acoustic; you can barely hear it. (An aside, Joey Boringass used a synth acoustic bass. That's part of why I wrote a wrong note when I transcribed it.) Also, functional harmony (without color chords at every step) is more suited to climactic writing; it can pack a better punch (in that particular sense).

The same goes for modern "classical" music (lulz), which (in a rather general sense) specifically seeks to avoid functional harmony altogether. It's built almost entirely from dissonance. A lot of that has worked its way into modern functional harmony, too. We have a higher tolerance for dissonance, and we can especially tolerate dissonant music in incidental music like film soundtracks. The soundtrack you buy is usually just the highlights, like the arias of an opera, but the real background music, not organized music but when orchestral music is used almost like sound effects, this is often highly dissonant. That has been true for most of the film era because highly dissonant music started to become vogue in music academia around the time that jazz was popular.

Speaking of tools and toolsets...here's a random example of what I like in modern music. Why I like it: mostly the climactic structure of the music. The tension builds all the way to "between supposed..." bit which is a fantastic way to come to the point, lyrically and musically (the rest is just winding down). Bonus: complex rhythm and complex layers. 20th century academic influence (direct, considering their education): primarily expressed in quartal harmony. (Building in parallel 4ths rather than 3rds.) It's mostly functional though, with a somewhat heavy emphasis on rhythmic elements.



PS: probably the closest I ever came to liking hip-hop was in the 90s when it was not always so far removed from R&B as far as the musical elements were concerned. I remember there was one song by Bone Thugs that I liked back in the day but I don't remember what it was and I haven't found it yet; I find their style mostly repetitive; they sing the same note patterns in every song, like a trademark. But it was just one example of many out of that gray area between hip-hop and R&B (Tupac also comes to mind, though I never really enjoyed listening to him; I'd rather listen to him all day than any hip-hop radio station these days). From my perspective the distinction is very important; hip-hop as a genre has very consciously minimalized the musical aspect over time, though in the 80s and 90s the minimal style existed; it just didn't make the radio waves quite so often (this gets less true in the 90s).

Sorry for asking a question on an edit, but I'm curious as to how old people are here. I'm 37. "Love it or hate it" boils down to a few things, and clearly generation is one of them. Much has been written about "white guilt" and "cultural appropriation" being factors in the rise of hip-hop, but whatever the catalyst, all that happened with the generation after me.

This post has been edited by Terez: 20 July 2015 - 06:54 PM

[QuickTidal]

Terez, on 20 July 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

Sorry for asking a question on an edit, but I'm curious as to how old people are here. I'm 37. "Love it or hate it" boils down to a few things, and clearly generation is one of them. Much has been written about "white guilt" and "cultural appropriation" being factors in the rise of hip-hop, but whatever the catalyst, all that happened with the generation after me.

38.

[amphibian]

I'm 29.

The front-and-centering of R&B hooks in hip-hop in the mid to late '90s was something a ton of people liked and a ton of people hated.

As for rapping over R&B-ish music, many, many rappers do that (and still do). Ghostface Killah (of Wu-Tang Clan fame) has made a lengthy career out of being mad and really descriptive over baby-making music.

I honestly think Terez would like Outkast, from ATLiens on down to recent projects. They took risks musically (usually paying off very well), never settled on a particular rapping style, and had a good idea of how to freshen things up after a while.

[worry]

It's interesting that you come back to the buildup and release of tension in a song, because a lot of the musical repetition in hip hop is about crystallizing one or two emotions so musically it often intends to do the opposite. It's meditative or exemplary, rather than wandering or building towards something. Thematic tensions, juxtapositions, etc. do tend to occur in the lyrics. Or vocals, more generally, perhaps...I do think the musicality of rap vocals is (sometimes) underrated or outright ignored. QT posted Passin Me By by The Pharcyde, where four very distinct vocalists do their things over a beat....it's not that far removed from the soloing in jazz, though (usually) less improvisational in nature. I can see why someone not prone to listen for it wouldn't distinguish between the rappers so much, the same way someone not prone to like jazz might consider most soloing just noodling around.

There's also plenty of non-vocal hip hop that doesn't get radio play for obvious reasons, but it's perhaps freer to explore sounds because they won't interfere with a vocal.


This doesn't break too far outside of pop music templates, but it does involve building tension toward climax.

This video recently went viral for its display of virtuosity (particularly the daughter). Beatboxing is mostly percussive by nature, but at its higher levels (like DJing) it's about dynamic songcraft, improv, tension, and climax.


And of course hip-hop is inherently collaborative since it's rooted in every kind of music, and its skillsets translate or cross over quite well. Rahzel, also a great beatboxer and solid rapper (and formerly of The Roots), was an instrumental (pardon the pun) force in Bjork's "Medulla" album for instance:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=vKcOqZFkzdw

You won't hear that on rap radio, of course, but on the other the radio sucks for most formats.

[Maark Abbott]

Terez, on 20 July 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

Sorry for asking a question on an edit, but I'm curious as to how old people are here. I'm 37. "Love it or hate it" boils down to a few things, and clearly generation is one of them. Much has been written about "white guilt" and "cultural appropriation" being factors in the rise of hip-hop, but whatever the catalyst, all that happened with the generation after me.

27. 28 in November. To be honest, I generally specialise in metal, but enjoy classical and some electronica (see: JMJ) as well as mid-80s synthpop (Human League etc) as a guilty pleasure.

[Gorefest]

Tool. The sole and unquestionable evidence that it pays not to stare yourself blind on a categorisation label.

And dEUS, naturally.

[Maark Abbott]

er really geint

Gorefest, on 24 July 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

Tool. The sole and unquestionable evidence that it pays not to stare yourself blind on a categorisation label.

And dEUS, naturally.

I could never really enjoy their music for some reason, but there's no denying the skill.

[Gorefest]

Maark, on 24 July 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

I could never really enjoy their music for some reason, but there's no denying the skill.

I guess this is more your thing.

[Maark Abbott]

Gorefest, on 24 July 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

Maark, on 24 July 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

I could never really enjoy their music for some reason, but there's no denying the skill.

I guess this is more your thing.

https://www.youtube....h?v=3f20L0msLsM

Why you gotta be such a stupid bastard? Aw, you dumb bugger. GRAH.

[Maark Abbott]

But yeah, Strapping (and Lord Devin in general) are definitely my sort of thing. What I like about him is that he's able to do a boatload of styles. I love Strapping for the sheer crushing density of sound, the fact that there are layers upon layers upon layers, but then my favourite Devin album is Sky Blue, which is quite a wide-open sounding disc. Deconstruction? Now THERE'S some nutty composition.

[Gorefest]

Maark, on 24 July 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

Why you gotta be such a stupid bastard? Aw, you dumb bugger. GRAH.

I aim to disappoint and confound