[gandrin]

I liked the book and found it exciting.

However, this is not what I was expecting at all.

The hints in MBotF were very intriguing
Way back when Lanas Tog first washed up on shore all beat up and said the T'lan Imass were losing to HUMANS in Assail, it perked my interest.
Iron Bars talking about barely escaping, and not wanting to talk about it--even more
Then somewhere they talk about "the tyrants and the games they play in Assail" (no idea the exact quote or where..but I've been pondering it for 2 years now)
And I'm not sure but I thought there was something about trying to ascend by conquest or something? Not sure on that one (maybe confusing with Blood and Bone?)

Anyway, that just is NOT what we have here.

1. Humans were not destroying T'lan Imass as far as I can see.
2. The only tyrants I saw (Mist and the crazy mages) were extremely isolated. The Sharrs were indeed playing crazy games, but only with each other.
3. Nobody on the whole continent seemed to have seen TI before. The only TI on the continent were 10000 years ago in the prologue
4. I'm pretty sure Iron Bars would have been perfectly safe anywhere on the continent except in the Sharrs court. Yes, those were the ones he was fighting. But they would not have followed him to the surf as he escaped the continent. So it's hard to imagine how it was so hard for him.
5. I expected Kallor to have something to do with the Thel Akai--though I guess his story took him elsewhere and our friendly Thel had other matters to attend to.


As far as what actually happened, I liked the final conjunction, especially the very poignant amber-appearance of an extinct Thel Akai that turned the tables. It was like the FA were caught in a moment of compassion and Silverfox jumped on it before they could get back to their devious ways. However I have a couple of other issues with the final scene.

5. The forkrul (how many? 4?) would not have been able to destroy the continent. Come on! We've seen them already, and some have been taken down by single humans (I AM THE WATCH!!!) Powerful, but not weapons of mass destruction. These were a different incarnation of FA from TCG. THere were only a few of them, but they also had armies of mixed blood FA with them.
6. Why would the FA have any interest/ability to grant a weapon? They are not gods or smiths, yet that is how Jethiss was treating them. They don't even use weapons themselves. Very weird (and stupid) idea.
7. The whole TI thing was weird--it's pretty obvious these were not the last Jaghut on the planet, so why would they think exterminating the continent would finish anything?

8. I get the feeling Fisher is STILL a bit more than he appears....

This post has been edited by gandrin: 08 March 2015 - 04:12 AM

[worry]

Not smiths? That's quite an assumption. I mean the first people you meet in the world are likely your parents, some doctors, and some nurses. You don't conclude from that information that human beings aren't milkmen or construction workers (or smiths), know what I mean?

[Abyss]

Assail not being what people expected is a common thread. Fair enough as far as it goes, but most of the foundation for what we got was still valid, just not what we thought it was....

gandrin said:

1425787629[/url]' post='1176416']
I liked the book and found it exciting.

However, this is not what I was expecting at all...

1. Humans were not destroying T'lan Imass as far as I can see.

Lamas Togg lied. It was made clear in the book that she wanted the other clans to come and exterminate the human/Jaghut tribes. The swords she was stuck thru were never explained. We could guess some tribe she tried to wipe out had them

Quote

2. The only tyrants I saw (Mist and the crazy mages) were extremely isolated. The Sharrs were indeed playing crazy games, but only with each other.

mist and the two Sharr clans were the ones we saw, and they we sufficiently powerful to challenge the Crimson Guard and make a clan of Imass work for it. Cotillion's comment in HoC about "the Tyrants" (he was cussing out the Imass guarding the first Throne for not getting reinforcements, btw) suggests there were more of them at the same level.

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3. Nobody on the whole continent seemed to have seen TI before. The only TI on the continent were 10000 years ago in the prologue

Yes, but there were repeated references to legends about them.

Quote

4. I'm pretty sure Iron Bars would have been perfectly safe anywhere on the continent except in the Sharrs court. Yes, those were the ones he was fighting. But they would not have followed him to the surf as he escaped the continent. So it's hard to imagine how it was so hard for him.

Cotillion's comment and the fact that the Sharrs killed three avowed would suggest otherwise.

Quote

...5. The forkrul (how many? 4?) would not have been able to destroy the continent. Come on! We've seen them already, and some have been taken down by single humans (I AM THE WATCH!!!) Powerful, but not weapons of mass destruction. These were a different incarnation of FA from TCG. THere were only a few of them, but they also had armies of mixed blood FA with them.

There were entire clans of the FA sleeping in the caves. As you note, Less than ten almost destroyed the world in TCG. The Watch... Far from a normal human. Same goes for everyone else we've ever seen take out an FA.

Quote

6. Why would the FA have any interest/ability to grant a weapon? They are not gods or smiths, yet that is how Jethiss was treating them. They don't even use weapons themselves. Very weird (and stupid) idea.

Then again, why not?

Quote

7. The whole TI thing was weird--it's pretty obvious these were not the last Jaghut on the planet, so why would they think exterminating the continent would finish anything?

They've already conducted sixty-something jihads. Why stop now?

Quote

8. I get the feeling Fisher is STILL a bit more than he appears....

Agreed.

[Tiam is an Imploding Unit]

To explain Lanas Tog's clan being killed and the people of Assail never having seen the TI, we can assume that Lanas' clan turned on itself as soon as it saw the Jhag-humans, like we see in the prologue. Apparently this happened enough times to wipe out most of a T'lan army (the Kerluhm? Bentract? I can't remember).

It explains it quite well, but no, it's not nearly as badass as some of the things I was thinking.

[gandrin]

Abyss, on 08 March 2015 - 05:17 AM, said:

Lamas Togg lied. It was made clear in the book that she wanted the other clans to come and exterminate the human/Jaghut tribes. The swords she was stuck thru were never explained. We could guess some tribe she tried to wipe out had them

well that would explain it...but there's no evidence that she did. Have we ever seen a TI lie? But if she really wanted TI to go there she should have just said there were jaghut--remember she spoke the moment she came from the surf, and there was no reason to lie.

Quote

There were entire clans of the FA sleeping in the caves. As you note, Less than ten almost destroyed the world in TCG. The Watch... Far from a normal human. Same goes for everyone else we've ever seen take out an FA.

They had massive armies (and beasts and ascendants) backing them up, and Paran's army alone completely bottlenecked them. As for the abilities of the natives to fight back, on Assail, Kyle nearly died several times, and I would put him in The Watch's category (thus a small army of natives would have been pretty powerful). On the other hand, thinking of the group assembled before the FA at the end of the book--that was a ridiculously powerful band, to be sitting there scared to death of a handful of FA. In the old "who would win" tradition, I think it's pretty clear that the FA described herein were more powerful than those in TCG.

Also remember that the MBotF Assail were quite proud of their names.


I miss Yedan. Didn't realize how cool he was until too late. I remember reading when he killed the FA and thinking... wait.... What?! He won?!?!?

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They've already conducted sixty-something jihads. Why stop now?

I was referring to Lanas' comments about how this action would 'settle the question' before Silverfox could arrive. That sounded like a finality to me, not just another jihad. THough I guess perhaps she just meant to kill everyone before Silverfox saved them, but IIRC the way she talked about it made it seem like she was going to complete the ritual by killing off the jaghut.



Anyway, I don't mean to sound like I'm "complaining" about Assail.I was expecting superpowerful humans, with some kind of game to reach ascendancy, that were defeating a lost TI army and scared away the CG and Spinnock so bad they wouldn't talk about it. Sounded crazy. I think that was a pretty logical expectation. (not that this series EVER gives us what we expect, and thank goodness for it!). In this book I saw a couple of (powerful, half Jaghut) Tyrants doing basically not much but sitting in their castles (kind of a weak demonstration of Cotillion's statement), and nothing to corroborate Lanas Tog's comments. The tyrants were powerful but just a sideshow on the journey to the Holds. The real business had little to do with what had been hinted in SE's books I think it fits exactly with ICE's books, it just doesn't quite fit with the sparse comments in SE's books.




Though, come to think of it...technically it's SE that got it wrong, right?

[gandrin]

worry, on 08 March 2015 - 04:15 AM, said:

Not smiths? That's quite an assumption. I mean the first people you meet in the world are likely your parents, some doctors, and some nurses. You don't conclude from that information that human beings aren't milkmen or construction workers (or smiths), know what I mean?

If you landed in this world, whom would you have asked to make you a weapon? The reclusive multijointed dudes who fight with their hands, the zombies who fight with flint, the dark dudes who made the Hust blades and lived with the guy who made Rake's sword, the hermits who make ice, or the humans who have little magic?

I'd pick the Tiste.

So why would a Tiste ask the "monks" to make him a weapon? They don't even use weapons! To be honest, he'd have been much better off just taking Yedan's old blade.

(and as for the "stupid" part, why ask when you KNOW they are going to try and make you regret it?)

[worry]

I believe if I was sent on a mission by the goddess of my people, I would follow the intuitions she instilled in me, up to and including asking the Assail to craft me a weapon.

[worry]

But I am ever devout.

[gandrin]

worry, on 08 March 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

I believe if I was sent on a mission by the goddess of my people, I would follow the intuitions she instilled in me, up to and including asking the Assail to craft me a weapon.

OK now THAT is a good answer.


That actually makes me want to read another book. Any news on a follow up?

[nacht]

gandrin, on 08 March 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

worry, on 08 March 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

I believe if I was sent on a mission by the goddess of my people, I would follow the intuitions she instilled in me, up to and including asking the Assail to craft me a weapon.

OK now THAT is a good answer.


That actually makes me want to read another book. Any news on a follow up?

Worry is wise :-)
The answer I liked from another thread in this forum, is that the Tiste had a big role in fucking up the world and now they are agreeing to a new pact to preserve peace, the arm is the sacrifice and the sword is the symbolic token.

I do think that SE messed up the FA, by making them too one dimensional (the single minded pursuit of Justice through annihilation) and ICE fixed that a little bit.

It is best if we all forgot Lanas Tog (who is she anyway?)

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I mentioned a whilback elsethread too that there is history of FA magic that utilizes bones; the bone chains that Calm bounds Icarium with, the bone steps on the Laederon Plateau that lead to Teblor lands...Hell, the bone giant in Assail could be a FA line of defense that hasn't had much to defend, got lonely and decided to just let his captives live as part of his collection. I dont think that the problem is that ASSAIL didnt live up to expectations but that people feeli like they're being trolled by what ICE gave us and don't rationally try to see how logical the book really is. Disappointment is a relative emotion, so I'm not being critical of readers, but its not a badly written book by any stretch.

We have to keep in mind that those FA from tCG were quite ambitious. I'm happy to be able to feel that they were the exception and not so much the rule.

[heavymetaltroll]

Not sure if I need to spoiler tag this, but given it relates to FoD I will anyway.

Spoiler

the FA in MBotF seem totally different to those in Ass (hehe, ass) because they are totally different. Those in MBotF are the priests (or Assail re FoD) while those in Ass are just plain Forkrul (Forulkan). The Forkrul are shown to have a hive mentality and there are quite a lot of them, whereas the Assail are depicted as far more individualistic and there are far fewer of them, relying as they did on successive generations of less pure part bloods. While the Pure Blood Assail in MBotF were pretty damn bad ass, there was only a handful of them, and one would think they would be far less powerful than they once were since the shattering of their god, which may explain why they didn't have the un-priestly Forkrul following them, just the part bloods. When I read Ass, I thought there were a hell of a lot of them sleeping up there, hundreds, if not thousands. Given the Forkrul would probably be fairly equal to the Assail both physically and martially, just without the ( in my opinion some what weakened) power of voice, that many would prove rather terrifying and quite capable of wiping out all life on the continent. Also, since they are neither priests nor monks, there is no reason to believe they would fight unarmed. Throughout both series the FA are depicted as wearing harness' and one would assume they would be used for carrying something, in my opinion likely weapons. There could very well be man smiths among them.

[Gorefest]

heavymetaltroll, on 11 March 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

There could very well be man smiths among them.

Or woman ones. They might not hammer as hard, you know, but they do add stylish curls to the blades. Wu is an equal opportunity world.

[blackzoid]

There was a lot more then 4 FA in Assail. Hundreds was the impression I got from the prologoue and the ending of the book. So ya, they could have easily taken out everyone on the continent if they got going. Looking back, Assail IS as dangerious as the first hints we received in MoI, its just dangerious becasue of a different race and all the danger is confined in one spot. I was never keen on the idea of human tyrants taking out the TL on a massive scale.

I like the theory that these FA dont care about names. That the others of the main series left the caves and explored the world outside Assail but got "contanimated" by outside ideas somewhat. It brings back a little of the alienness that I first loved about the FA.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

blackzoid, on 11 March 2015 - 12:08 PM, said:

I like the theory that these FA dont care about names. That the others of the main series left the caves and explored the world outside Assail but got "contanimated" by outside ideas somewhat. It brings back a little of the alienness that I first loved about the FA.

I thikn that's pretty much the consensus, right? Which is interesting considering how long ago Calm was trapped under that stone.

[nacht]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 11 March 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

blackzoid, on 11 March 2015 - 12:08 PM, said:

I like the theory that these FA dont care about names. That the others of the main series left the caves and explored the world outside Assail but got "contanimated" by outside ideas somewhat. It brings back a little of the alienness that I first loved about the FA.

I thikn that's pretty much the consensus, right? Which is interesting considering how long ago Calm was trapped under that stone.

Hmm, so "Calm" came up with the name to just calm herself while she lay stuck under the huge boulder :-)
Her full name probably is "Calm Down"

[heavymetaltroll]

Gorefest, on 11 March 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

heavymetaltroll, on 11 March 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

There could very well be man smiths among them.

Or woman ones. They might not hammer as hard, you know, but they do add stylish curls to the blades. Wu is an equal opportunity world.

Whoops, was meant to be many, not man lol All the best blades have stylish curls that only a feminine touch can bring.

[gandrin]

heavymetaltroll, on 11 March 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

Not sure if I need to spoiler tag this, but given it relates to FoD I will anyway.

Spoiler

the FA in MBotF seem totally different to those in Ass (hehe, ass) because they are totally different. Those in MBotF are the priests (or Assail re FoD) while those in Ass are just plain Forkrul (Forulkan). The Forkrul are shown to have a hive mentality and there are quite a lot of them, whereas the Assail are depicted as far more individualistic and there are far fewer of them, relying as they did on successive generations of less pure part bloods. While the Pure Blood Assail in MBotF were pretty damn bad ass, there was only a handful of them, and one would think they would be far less powerful than they once were since the shattering of their god, which may explain why they didn't have the un-priestly Forkrul following them, just the part bloods. When I read Ass, I thought there were a hell of a lot of them sleeping up there, hundreds, if not thousands. Given the Forkrul would probably be fairly equal to the Assail both physically and martially, just without the ( in my opinion some what weakened) power of voice, that many would prove rather terrifying and quite capable of wiping out all life on the continent. Also, since they are neither priests nor monks, there is no reason to believe they would fight unarmed. Throughout both series the FA are depicted as wearing harness' and one would assume they would be used for carrying something, in my opinion likely weapons. There could very well be man smiths among them.

I think calling the entire CONTINENT Assail makes it hard for me to believe these weren't Forkrul Assail. Just cuz the say Forkrul (not Forulkan, mind you) doesn't mean they aren't FA. Or did I miss something? Somebody (fisher?) even hints that the "Assail" (i.e. the namesake of the continent) might be up the mountain early in the book. So I'm not really buying the "other Forkrul" theory. We don't use the full name of Toblakai and Imass and still know who they are.

I do think the idea of being pure and not out in the world is probably more like it. Calm and her buddies, as I remember, were pretty proud of being "pure" themselves blood-wise.

I didn't get the impression of "thousands" My impression was a small band.

This post has been edited by gandrin: 14 March 2015 - 01:37 AM

[gandrin]

heavymetaltroll, on 12 March 2015 - 04:23 AM, said:

Gorefest, on 11 March 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

heavymetaltroll, on 11 March 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

There could very well be man smiths among them.

Or woman ones. They might not hammer as hard, you know, but they do add stylish curls to the blades. Wu is an equal opportunity world.

Whoops, was meant to be many, not man lol All the best blades have stylish curls that only a feminine touch can bring.

Even Dragnipur? I think that's got guy-nerd/1980's heavy metal goth styling 100%. Icarium's also unlikely to have a woman's touch, but for the opposite reason-- pretty utilitarian, just a one sided curve.

[Malaz Mule]

gandrin, on 14 March 2015 - 01:41 AM, said:

Icarium's also unlikely to have a woman's touch, but for the opposite reason-- pretty utilitarian, just a one sided curve.

Whoa whoa whoa! Everyone (me) knows that Icariums sword looks exactly like one of the swords Leonardo uses in the Ninja Turtles. Fact.