[Ultama]

I'm playing on the world's smallest phone. Do spelling and grammar and mistakes like that will happen.

[Ultama]

Where I vote will depend on what perspective I'm going to take and for now you cannot prove a symp a symp unless you get a scum cf.

I'll vote Korbas

Vote Korbas

Because I can see what Tulas is saying. Korbas looked as though he wanted to see which way the wind was blowing before he set sail.

[Tulas Shorn]

Ultama, on 10 February 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

It's posts like this that is edging me towards thinking your a symp. You need more content to work with?

Are we not allowed to digress into meaningless chatter and them lynch the weirdest post/person. Scum are going to be careful with what they write unless the slip up and need their symp to step up to the plate. I've already stated that I like your reasoning for Korbas vote but now you got me asking the question, what's your motive? Your Korbas analysis, half a case or whatever you call it has got people swaying away from Tennes which is fine. Now you comment that you need more game related chatter over day one nonsense.

People should be allowed to write whatever they want to because that's how we get slips or that's how we spot someone doing only that but not contributing the the serious part of deciding who to lynch.

People are cagey early on, sitting back and letting others direct the thread. If they see a reason to vote then they will, I'd prefer a couple of non committal votes if it helps us get the lynch. By telling them it's not good enough you may make their next vote disappear.

Ok, basically this is a game philosophy thing, which I have been known to rant about...anyhow.

"It's posts like this that is edging me towards thinking your a symp. You need more content to work with?"

This is just way off. I mean, I must have forgotten that town don't like content. Low content games suit scum. Low content games make towns job considerably more difficult. Content helps town players get a better read on each other. Content means that scum players can't just hide in amongst an unreadable mass, it forces them to actually post, and to give the town posts that they can actually analyse to try and see if everything adds up.

Random banter is better than nothing, but far far less useful than actually contribution. Yes, occasionally you will get slips with random banter, but by pushing people to contribute, to get outside of their comfort zone, pushing scum to have to actually try and imitate town instead of just randomly bantering because that's what everyone is doing, you get better results. You say scum are going to be cautious? Then let's look at the cautious playe -- oh wait, like half of the players could fit that and so we've got nothing there. Content lets us evaluate who is being overly cautious. Pushing for content forces scum to actually have to do something, so that they can't just easily be cautious the whole time. It's a far better way of finding errors than randomly chatting and hoping that scum get complacent.

Yes, people are cagey early on -- but that is no excuse. The fact is, cagey play is harmful to town. Cagey play isn't good play. Town are going to lynch people anyway. Cagey play allows the fear of a specific lynch being you to get in the way of generating useful information for the team. It's a team game. If someone is going to be lynched anyhow, you're better trying to engage usefully with the thread, and there being a chance that you get lynched, than contributing nothing to thread, avoiding being lynched personally, and accomodating a low content situation where scum thrive. Low posting is not a neutral position, it aids scum.

As for this:

"If they see a reason to vote then they will, I'd prefer a couple of non committal votes if it helps us get the lynch. By telling them it's not good enough you may make their next vote disappear."

What image are your painting of mafia players here? Are they some delicate species that must carefully be cultivated for content, with all the patience in the world -- no no, it's fine that you didn't post anything game related in the last 36 hours, maybe tomorrow, thanks for at least voting... Are they just going to run off and cower at the thought of being called out on their contribution? That's practically the main mechanic of the game, what the hell did they sign up for?

Edit: Grammar and Quote trimming.

This post has been edited by Tulas Shorn: 10 February 2015 - 05:17 PM

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 1. 7 hours 57 minutes remaining.

There are 14 players left alive: Alkend, Ampelas, Korbas, Mockra, Omtose, Pallid, Rikkter, Silanah, Tennes, Tholen, Tiamatha, Tulas Shorn, Ultama, Venesara

4 votes Korbas: Tennes, Tulas Shorn, Venesara, Ultama
4 votes Tennes: Ampelas, Tholen, Pallid, Korbas


Players not voted: Alkend, Mockra, Omtose, Rikkter, Silanah, Tiamatha

[Tulas Shorn]

Ultama, on 10 February 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

You were the first to highlight it you hypocrite

Yeah, I pointed this out earlier. Notice how I took it as a joke... which is still how I think it was intended. Not really feeling the hypocrisy there. Seems almost like total consistency, you know...

[Ultama]

Tulas Shorn, on 10 February 2015 - 05:16 PM, said:

Ultama, on 10 February 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

It's posts like this that is edging me towards thinking your a symp. You need more content to work with?

Are we not allowed to digress into meaningless chatter and them lynch the weirdest post/person. Scum are going to be careful with what they write unless the slip up and need their symp to step up to the plate. I've already stated that I like your reasoning for Korbas vote but now you got me asking the question, what's your motive? Your Korbas analysis, half a case or whatever you call it has got people swaying away from Tennes which is fine. Now you comment that you need more game related chatter over day one nonsense.

People should be allowed to write whatever they want to because that's how we get slips or that's how we spot someone doing only that but not contributing the the serious part of deciding who to lynch.

People are cagey early on, sitting back and letting others direct the thread. If they see a reason to vote then they will, I'd prefer a couple of non committal votes if it helps us get the lynch. By telling them it's not good enough you may make their next vote disappear.

Ok, basically this is a game philosophy thing, which I have been known to rant about...anyhow.

"It's posts like this that is edging me towards thinking your a symp. You need more content to work with?"

This is just way off. I mean, I must have forgotten that town don't like content. Low content games suit scum. Low content games make towns job considerably more difficult. Content helps town players get a better read on each other. Content means that scum players can't just hide in amongst an unreadable mass, it forces them to actually post, and to give the town posts that they can actually analyse to try and see if everything adds up.

Random banter is better than nothing, but far far less useful than actually contribution. Yes, occasionally you will get slips with random banter, but by pushing people to contribute, to get outside of their comfort zone, pushing scum to have to actually try and imitate town instead of just randomly bantering because that's what everyone is doing, you get better results. You say scum are going to be cautious? Then let's look at the cautious playe -- oh wait, like half of the players could fit that and so we've got nothing there. Content lets us evaluate who is being overly cautious. Pushing for content forces scum to actually have to do something, so that they can't just easily be cautious the whole time. It's a far better way of finding errors than randomly chatting and hoping that scum get complacent.

Yes, people are cagey early on -- but that is no excuse. The fact is, cagey play is harmful to town. Cagey play isn't good play. Town are going to lynch people anyway. Cagey play allows the fear of a specific lynch being you to get in the way of generating useful information for the team. It's a team game. If someone is going to be lynched anyhow, you're better trying to engage usefully with the thread, and there being a chance that you get lynched, than contributing nothing to thread, avoiding being lynched personally, and accomodating a low content situation where scum thrive. Low posting is not a neutral position, it aids scum.

As for this:

"If they see a reason to vote then they will, I'd prefer a couple of non committal votes if it helps us get the lynch. By telling them it's not good enough you may make their next vote disappear."

What image are your painting of mafia players here? Are they some delicate species that must carefully be cultivated for content, with all the patience in the world -- no no, it's fine that you didn't post anything game related in the last 36 hours, maybe tomorrow, thanks for at least voting... Are they just going to run off and cower at the thought of being called out on their contribution? That's practically the main mechanic of the game, what the hell did they sign up for?

Edit: Grammar and Quote trimming.

So how do you get them to post more content. back when I first started out was not a problem as we had players like Ment with more time on their hands.

looking at this game you'd want the players to pick up on day two whereas day one you can get away with more nonsense.

People say in sign up that they have less time and that's one reason we are struggling to get enough for the big games.

I see what you're saying. If they only have time for one post then make that post count. Give us enough of your thoughts to see where you are swinging and why?

[Rikkter]

Ultama, on 10 February 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

Easily 5 paragraphs of writing disappeared due to bad fucking connection

Ultama, on 10 February 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

I'm playing on the world's smallest phone. Do spelling and grammar and mistakes like that will happen.

I here you. I somehow ended up triple posting from my phone today due to the worlds most erratic connection which would fluctuate if I moved my arm 6 inches to the right.

[Rikkter]

It seems to me that Day 1 has so far been taken over entirely by two posts both of which were probably jokes.

Regarding Tennes, I have said it before and I will say it again, that big a slip really does not happen that early on.

The Korbas post, might be a joke too. Its fairly early on. Frankly the idea about 'a show of hands' seems to have been taken a bit too seriously.

But first day lynches are often random, and motivated by unlikely events. I just got back, so I will do a reread and see what pops up.

[Omtose]

Tulas Shorn, on 10 February 2015 - 02:53 AM, said:

I took Tennes' post as jokey... It is possible that it's a slip, but I'm wondering how that would actually happen. Did he forget he wasn't meant to mention it, or what? We've got to wonder why he'd post that I suppose, but his explanation doesn't really seem farfetched to me. I agree with Venesara that the case seems like a stretch. I also think the train has raised a couple of things worth looking at. Firstly, the fact that it has garnered a good number of votes at this point, where people still haven't even checked in, is a bit strange in itself. Secondly, the fact that most of those votes are just "Sure, ok, cool" and then hopping on the train. This sort of thing doesn't provide much info on thread, and seems like people are looking for an excuse to lay down a vote, look active, without really telling us anything -- no comment on how likely they think that sort of slip is, or on Tennes' reaction, or anything. It's similar to the problem with people "voting to get a lynch", except that we're super early in the day so there's no excuse for it. Thirdly, these two posts caught my eye:

Ultama, on 09 February 2015 - 10:04 PM, said:

Yep. looks like a slip followed by some good old scrambled eggs.

Ultama agrees that it looks like a slip and follows it up with...nope, nothing. It struck me as a little odd, though given how early it is, not so much as the next one.

Korbas, on 10 February 2015 - 12:01 AM, said:

You do have to hand to it the guy. He singlehandedly got this game moving, and clawed his way to the top of everyones vote list.

I think a show of hands is order, How many think he should voted off the Island first? Hands up. Hands up. anybody?

Korbas seems purely like he's testing the waters before committing to his vote. He then does vote, after someone else joins the train.

Vote Korbas

Because I don't like that you seem more concerned with where the consensus lies than with what you actually think is scummy, when voting. Especially when it is so early, and the train you're discussing already has more people going for it that most trains normally do at this point.

I would add Pallid to this list, for jumping on all meh casual-like. I do find it surprising that we got half the votes needed before Tennes even had a chance to respond.

I will vote Korbas though I'm somewhat sceptical. Still seems a better vote than Tennes though, and other than possibly Ultama or Pallid, other alternatives have not presented themselves in a read-through.

Vote Korbas

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 1. 7 hours 14 minutes remaining.

There are 14 players left alive: Alkend, Ampelas, Korbas, Mockra, Omtose, Pallid, Rikkter, Silanah, Tennes, Tholen, Tiamatha, Tulas Shorn, Ultama, Venesara

5 votes Korbas: Tennes, Tulas Shorn, Venesara, Ultama, Omtose
4 votes Tennes: Ampelas, Tholen, Pallid, Korbas


Players not voted: Alkend, Mockra, Rikkter, Silanah, Tiamatha

[Tulas Shorn]

Ultama, on 10 February 2015 - 05:24 PM, said:

So how do you get them to post more content. back when I first started out was not a problem as we had players like Ment with more time on their hands.

looking at this game you'd want the players to pick up on day two whereas day one you can get away with more nonsense.

People say in sign up that they have less time and that's one reason we are struggling to get enough for the big games.

I see what you're saying. If they only have time for one post then make that post count. Give us enough of your thoughts to see where you are swinging and why?

I think there are basically two issues. The first is purely to do with time; people sign up when actually they don't have time to play. The second is people not posting even though they have the time.

I think the second is partly caused by the first. We really don't do much to disincentivise not posting any content -- you might occasionally get me bitching at you for it, but it's not punished by lynching all that often (which also incentivises scum to low post, and is why I think low posting hurts town rather than being neutral -- because it gives scum an easier game than they would have had). I think this is in part because there are usually a few low posters who just don't have time, and once there are enough of them, it's hard to decide which should be lynched instead of the others, and it's not feasible to get rid of all of them. So, it becomes less risky than posting more, and people are cagey and worried about getting lynched. Which I think is another part of the problem, I think that it needs to be really emphasized that it's a team game and that playing in the manner that makes you most likely to survive is not the same as good play. Possibly it's in part the nature of the game itself combined with the varied amount of time people here have played for. If everyone's new, then you don't have to get your posts up to the standard where it won't be called out by an experienced player. Honestly, I'm not totally sure.

I think a good place to start would be trying to fix the first issue though. People often sign up "if you need the numbers" for example, and I just don't think this is helpful. I would much rather start from the outset with one less person than have someone playing who doesn't really post anything -- after all, in a normal game lynching that person would be minus two people, which is worse (and if they randomly get a scum role, it's even more irritating). I think if mods just told people in the sign up not to sign up unless they thought they had time then it would help. Of course, sometimes things will come up and people will have less time than they thought they would and end up low posting, but I don't think that's really the problem, as opposed to when people sign up and have exactly how much time they thought they would. Idk, it's possible the community doesn't really agere with me there, and doesn't have a problem with people signing up when they don't have a certain amount of time for it (and I don't really know, quantifiably, how much is enough time for a solid contribution, I guess that varies between people), it's just my personal view on things.

I do think that pressuring people in game is one way of trying to combat the problem, because it at least provides some incentive and encouragement for people to post. I mean, in this game people don't even seem to be explaining their votes, so all we get is that they apparently think a certain person ought to be the lynch, though quite possibly they'll not be on to see any other trains develop so who knows.

I also think I should clarify that by low poster I don't mean people with a low post count -- it's quite possible to provide a meaningful input into the game while having a low number of posts.

[Korbas]

I signed up because I had the time, but It looks like I'm going to be railroaded on the first day.

[Tulas Shorn]

Korbas, on 10 February 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

I signed up because I had the time, but It looks like I'm going to be railroaded on the first day.

Yeah, I wasn't aiming any of those comments at you, or really at any individual in particular.

It is interesting to note that the two main suspects today are both amongst the most vocal. Often, being vocal does mean you're more likely to get some heat; we seem to pressure people based on things they have done more than things they haven't. However, in this case the heat on Tennes for example came pretty early, before most of the posts, so I think it does suggest that putting pressure on people does make them post more...

[Tennes]

Tulas Shorn, on 10 February 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

Korbas, on 10 February 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

I signed up because I had the time, but It looks like I'm going to be railroaded on the first day.

Yeah, I wasn't aiming any of those comments at you, or really at any individual in particular.

It is interesting to note that the two main suspects today are both amongst the most vocal. Often, being vocal does mean you're more likely to get some heat; we seem to pressure people based on things they have done more than things they haven't. However, in this case the heat on Tennes for example came pretty early, before most of the posts, so I think it does suggest that putting pressure on people does make them post more...

Alternatively I just never shut up

[Rikkter]

Quote

You do have to hand to it the guy. He singlehandedly got this game moving, and clawed his way to the top of everyones vote list.

I think a show of hands is order, How many think he should voted off the Island first? Hands up. Hands up. anybody?

Quote

The chances of a day one lynch going through are very low. If you couldn't tell I was playing with the "hand thing, you really need to get out more. The only thing slightly of interest, was the possibility that he was trying to play at being town

Quote

It was more of a kinda "fuck it" moment. Adding to the train is bringing out more players, more discussion, more stuff to go over tomorrow.

Tennes was not on the top of anybodys list really. But this post really got the whole good guy/bad guy thing going. Also if he is at the top of the list, then why not Vote Tennes right there? No, Korbas wants public opinion.

Later he tones it down to being "slightly of interest"

Then its a "fuck it" moment.

There's some inconsistency there, I think.

All this stuff is rubbing me the wrong way. I can't be around till end of day, so I want to get my vote in now.

Vote Korbas

[Korbas]

God the whole lot of you are full of shit.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 1. 5 hours 42 minutes remaining.

There are 14 players left alive: Alkend, Ampelas, Korbas, Mockra, Omtose, Pallid, Rikkter, Silanah, Tennes, Tholen, Tiamatha, Tulas Shorn, Ultama, Venesara

8 votes to lynch, 7 for night.

6 votes Korbas: Tennes, Tulas Shorn, Venesara, Ultama, Omtose, Rikkter
4 votes Tennes: Ampelas, Tholen, Pallid, Korbas


Players not voted: Alkend, Mockra, Silanah, Tiamatha

[Alkend]

Korbas, on 10 February 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

So let me get this straight.

Tennes places a joke vote on me, then makes what some call a slipup. A train starts on him.

I make a joke about it, then later say fuck it and join the train with an OMGUS vote. Pointing out the claw = good guy thing. Now I'm some how scumy for it and a train starts on me.

I still don't get it.

Korbas, on 10 February 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

I signed up because I had the time, but It looks like I'm going to be railroaded on the first day.

Posts like these don't help you much in regards to my own take on things. These come off as whiny woe-is-me. Yes, perhaps you are being wrongfully railroaded, but day 1 mafia happens. At this point, if you're town a derail probably ends up in a non-lynch or a mass move to Tennes at best. Lynch is better than no lynch, so these posts don't help anybody much.

[Alkend]

Korbas, on 10 February 2015 - 07:29 PM, said:

God the whole lot of you are full of shit.

You must be new around here.

[Korbas]

Alkend, on 10 February 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

Korbas, on 10 February 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

So let me get this straight.

Tennes places a joke vote on me, then makes what some call a slipup. A train starts on him.

I make a joke about it, then later say fuck it and join the train with an OMGUS vote. Pointing out the claw = good guy thing. Now I'm some how scumy for it and a train starts on me.

I still don't get it.

Korbas, on 10 February 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

I signed up because I had the time, but It looks like I'm going to be railroaded on the first day.

Posts like these don't help you much in regards to my own take on things. These come off as whiny woe-is-me. Yes, perhaps you are being wrongfully railroaded, but day 1 mafia happens. At this point, if you're town a derail probably ends up in a non-lynch or a mass move to Tennes at best. Lynch is better than no lynch, so these posts don't help anybody much.

Go Fuck yourself