[fakeshemp]

Wily Tuchuk, on 23 October 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

tiam, on 22 October 2011 - 06:34 PM, said:

Wily Tuchuk, on 22 October 2011 - 04:40 PM, said:

i came to the same conclusion, i think all the 'Deadhouse dwellers' received 'gifts and enhancements' from their time there.

if i could ask SE one thing it would have to be 'Who where the family members who resided in the deadhouse' ? as my theory's seem to be at odds with the thoughts of most others on this site

HOC MMPB p.296 gives a list of the original family.

could anyone quote fu that for me ?

Tavore: 'Who were these first hirelings, Admiral?"
Nok: 'Myself, Ameron, Dujek, a woman named Hawl - my wife..........'
'Was this before they were granted entry to the Deadhouse?' Games asked.
'Aye, but only just. Our residency in the Deadhouse rewarded us with - as is now clearly evident - certain gifts. Longevity, immunity to most diseases, and......other things. The Deadhouse also provided us with an unassailable base of operations. Dancer later bolstered our numbers by recruiting among the refugee Napans who'd fled the conquest: Catheron Crust and his brother, Urko. And Surly - Laseen. Three more men were to follow shortly thereafter. Toc Elder, Dassem Ultor.....Tayschrenn. And finally Duiker"


While the original were just Dancer, Kellanved, Nok, Ameron, Dujek and Nok's wife who died, I get the impression that sometime shortly after they were recruited but just before the Crust brothers/Surly, is when they took over the Deadhouse. It says Dassem etc was later but not specifically how much.

I would imagine (especially given the abilities of some of them), that all of those mentioned were residing there. Then again I know next to nothing at this point about Dassem Ultor other than that he was working for Hood, but not if this was before or during him joining the family. Similarly I know little about Toc Elder and while Tayschrenn seems a mage of great power, Duiker doesn't seem to have any "super abilities". So perhaps it was only the original 5 and the Napans. I do find it hard to believe though, that they would abandon such a prize. All of this is pure speculation on my part just from the above paragraph though. Perhaps info is released later which tells a different story.

This post has been edited by fakeshemp: 23 October 2011 - 10:10 PM

[fakeshemp]

Having read further into HoC it seems the above is not quite accurate, despite being a direct quote. Nok's wife was very much alive it appears so I'm not sure how much doubt that throws on Nok's list of "Family", but certainly one thing seems to be off: Aspalar, recalling Dancer's memory remembers the man Traveller, now guarding the throne, as always being present. Even before Surly and Dujek joined. I guess the quote didn't really answer the question of which family members were resident in the Deadhouse that well after all.

I've put the following in spoiler form as it's a guess but if it's correct, I'm not sure if it will be revealed here or a later book.... better safe than banned.

Spoiler

Given Nok going out of his way to mention that Dassem Ultor is Dal Honese in the earlier quote and Shadowthrone and Cotillion mentioning Traveller is Dal Honese in their later conversation, I've put 2 and 2 together. Have I walked right into a red herring here or is Traveller actually Dassem? Knowing the little info I do about him turning against Hood after his daughters death he certainly fits Aspalars description of having "such.. anger". Erikson doesn't seem to throw in random info very often unless it's a waypoint. I miss most of them sadly.

[Whiskey Bass]

cheers for the excellent quote fu Fakeshemp

this Nok pov statement bothers me for the following reasons :-

'Myself, Ameron, Dujek, a woman named Hawl - my wife..........' (doesn't this ..........' imply non veralised thought, ie others he didnt mention or thought not worth mentioning)

'Our residency in the Deadhouse rewarded us with - as is now clearly evident - certain gifts. Longevity, immunity to most diseases, and......other things (same again here)

Dancer later bolstered our numbers by recruiting among the refugee Napans who'd fled the conquest: Catheron Crust and his brother, Urko. And Surly - Laseen. Three more men were to follow shortly thereafter. Toc Elder, Dassem Ultor.....Tayschrenn. And finally Duiker" and here Nok shows no identification with the 'Napans' of which he is one.

and finaly Dujek being an original, means Tattersails Knowledge of 'Dujeck being 79' is totaly wrong and yet another pov taken as litaral truth.

i so wish SE or ICE would pen a small novel on this essential bit of history, infact if i was a billionare i would throw silly amounts of cash at them till they give in and wrote a trilogy.

This post has been edited by Wily Tuchuk: 24 October 2011 - 03:14 PM

[fakeshemp]

Sorry, it was me badly and lazilly quoting the "my wife..." you are referring to is just me skipping a bunch of non-relevant information to save me typing the whole paragraph. He basically says how he was on a fleet in the Napan Isles that got caught up in the Untan king's invasions. They were quite badly hit and wound up in Malaz harbor, where the crew was arrested by Mock, who was trading prisoners with Unta. He, Ameron and his wife escaped but were found by Dujek, who brought them to Kellanved and Dancer. (Actually this might have been relevant as it implies Dujek was with Kellanved/Dancer before Nok/Hawl but according to Nok it was pre-Deadhouse anyway). No names were mentioned other than those already which is why I skipped it. The "immunity to most diseases ...and other things" is literal from the book, although I took it to signify a pause where he decided what, if anything, to reveal. Similarly when listing the other names " Dassem Ultor... Tayschrenn" is just me skipping him mentioning the fact that Dassem was Dal Honese like Kellanved and that Tayschrenn was a High Septarch of D'rek, in order to keep it to just a list of names and timeframes. Sorry if I confused you .

EDIT: Here is the the full quote to avoid any further confusion:

'Myself, Ameron, Dujek, a woman named Hawl - my wife. I had been First Mate to a corsair that worked the sea lanes around the Napan Isles - which had just been annexed by Unta and were providing a staging point for the Untan king's planned invasion of Kartool. We'd taken a beating and had limped into Malaz Harbour, only to have the ship and its crew arrested by Mock, who was negotiating a trade of prisoners with Unta. Only Ameron and Hawl and I escaped. A lad named Dujek discovered where we were holed up and he delivered us to his new employers. Kellanved and Dancer.'

'Was this before they were granted entry into the Deadhouse?' Gamet asked.

'Aye, but only just. Our residency in the Deadhouse rewarded us with - as is now clearly evident - certain gifts. Longevity, immunity to most diseases, and...other things. The Deadhouse also provided us with an unassailable base of operations. Dancer had bolstered our numbers by recruiting among the refugee Napans who'd fled the conquest: Cartheron Crust and his brother, Urko. And Surly - Laseen. Three more men were to follow shortly thereafter. Toc Elder, Dassem Ultor - who was, like Kellanved, of Dal Honese blood - and a renegade High Septarch of the D'rek Cult, Tayschrenn. And finally, Duiker.' He half smiled at Tavore. 'The family. With which Kellanved conquered Malaz Island. Swiftly done, with minimal losses...'

Minimal...'Your wife,' Gamet said.

Definitely though, as you said, it seems yet another suspect POV. I do love that we can't take anything said at face value, even if it does frustrate the hell out of me on times.

This post has been edited by fakeshemp: 24 October 2011 - 04:57 PM

[Whiskey Bass]

much apreciated Fakeshemp

i was hopping mad for the first three books or so, over the 'delusional' pov's, but once i accepted that the various characters only think they know what they know, the whole series changed for me, as it has now become something of a fascinating puzzle which seems cunninly contrived to bring out the obbsesive compulsive in me lol (i even keep my own Malazan Encyclopedia to keep up
with the characters and for back refrencing) sad or what lol.

when i first started reading this series i scoffed at the comparrisons with my beloved Tolkien, but i must now admit that SE and ICE have crafted a fantasy series which is truly a gem at the very pinnicle of the genra itself.

dont get me wrong im no 'fanboy' the MBotF has its flaws, but then again what book series, tv show or even people dont'

well i think i have rambled on way too much here so i will leave it there, lol i blame the 'Bluecheese if you know what i mean .

[Abyss]

Just to complicate things, HoC tells us that Kel and Dancer had connections with at least one (if not more) Shadow Cult (by example the one they raided where Lostara danced), which may have been a source for allies or Talon recruitment.

[tiam]

Wily Tuchuk, on 24 October 2011 - 03:12 PM, said:

cheers for the excellent quote fu Fakeshemp

this Nok pov statement bothers me for the following reasons :-

'Myself, Ameron, Dujek, a woman named Hawl - my wife..........' (doesn't this ..........' imply non veralised thought, ie others he didnt mention or thought not worth mentioning)

'Our residency in the Deadhouse rewarded us with - as is now clearly evident - certain gifts. Longevity, immunity to most diseases, and......other things (same again here)

Dancer later bolstered our numbers by recruiting among the refugee Napans who'd fled the conquest: Catheron Crust and his brother, Urko. And Surly - Laseen. Three more men were to follow shortly thereafter. Toc Elder, Dassem Ultor.....Tayschrenn. And finally Duiker" and here Nok shows no identification with the 'Napans' of which he is one.

and finaly Dujek being an original, means Tattersails Knowledge of 'Dujeck being 79' is totaly wrong and yet another pov taken as litaral truth.

i so wish SE or ICE would pen a small novel on this essential bit of history, infact if i was a billionare i would throw silly amounts of cash at them till they give in and wrote a trilogy.

Both you and Fakeshemp are trying to get your head around things and its a very frustrating process. Theres an inherant inconsistency,which youve both noticed, in that Hawl is killed early on yet seemed to be a highly ranked Talon who died on Drift Avalii. This,as you rightly pointed out casts doubt on Noks original family speech. Its difficult to understand admittedly but hopefully by the time youve finished the series youll have a better understanding.

I will say this about the timeline and Tattersails comment of Dujeks age in GOTM. Firstly she gives her own age as 219 or something like that which is probably a GOTMism as is the emphasis on magic books. Secondly, as we see from Noks speech that FakeShemp quoted in full, Dujek is described by Nok, who had already been fairly high up in the Napan Navy, as 'a lad'. Nok must, by definition of his phrase, have been significantly older by possibly 10-15 years at a minimum. Therefore by the time of GOTM Dujek may have only been 79 though he is described a not looking it, likely an effect of the Azath. At the same time, and by this rationale, Nok must be nearing a century,possibly more, to allow hom to call Dujek 'a lad' at the founding period ofthe Empire. There arent many problems with this as Nok is described as old and we can likely chalk it upto the Azath.

Though as always the timeline is a problem.

[Abyss]

tiam, on 25 October 2011 - 06:42 PM, said:

...Though as always the timeline is NOT IMPORTANT.

Fixed.

Re Hawl, Nok certainly seems convinced that she's dead, altho it could be a 'she's dead to me' thing. Considering he's one of the few Old Guard who remain loyal to the ME under Laseen and are neither outlawed nor purged, it's likely he believes it and has stayed out of the 'below the radar' events, unlike Tayschrenn, the other notable Old Guard still with the ME as of HoC. Also, Nok is speaking with Tavore, who is the Empress' Adjunct, so admitting to her that Hawl is alive would be a bad call.

The fact that she shows up in a separate storyline on Avalii with Traveller is coincidental and/or a narrative device, but goes to the point that there is almost always a lot more going on that the characters know or say. And then of course she dies anyways, in Cotillion's arms, which brings the point to a poetic close.

[tiam]

Abyss, on 25 October 2011 - 07:00 PM, said:

tiam, on 25 October 2011 - 06:42 PM, said:

...Though as always the timeline is NOT IMPORTANT.

Fixed.

Re Hawl, Nok certainly seems convinced that she's dead, altho it could be a 'she's dead to me' thing. Considering he's one of the few Old Guard who remain loyal to the ME under Laseen and are neither outlawed nor purged, it's likely he believes it and has stayed out of the 'below the radar' events, unlike Tayschrenn, the other notable Old Guard still with the ME as of HoC. Also, Nok is speaking with Tavore, who is the Empress' Adjunct, so admitting to her that Hawl is alive would be a bad call.

The fact that she shows up in a separate storyline on Avalii with Traveller is coincidental and/or a narrative device, but goes to the point that there is almost always a lot more going on that the characters know or say. And then of course she dies anyways, in Cotillion's arms, which brings the point to a poetic close.

Regarding Noks loyalty

Yes he certainly seems loyal [[modgod strike!]]. He is loyal to the Empire yes but maybe not to the Empress in a similar way to Tay.

Reading Noks comment that shesdead to me doesnt really work. Nok states that there were minimal casualties with his clash with Mock and acknowledges that his wife was one of the casualties. To read that as some sort of emotional breakdown during the campaign that led to the end of their marriage is a bit thin though I take your point.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 25 October 2011 - 07:48 PM
Reason for edit: TBH SPOILERS MODGODDED OUT OF EXISTANCE THIS IS THE HOC FORUM

[Whiskey Bass]

tiam, on 25 October 2011 - 06:42 PM, said:

Wily Tuchuk, on 24 October 2011 - 03:12 PM, said:

cheers for the excellent quote fu Fakeshemp

this Nok pov statement bothers me for the following reasons :-

'Myself, Ameron, Dujek, a woman named Hawl - my wife..........' (doesn't this ..........' imply non veralised thought, ie others he didnt mention or thought not worth mentioning)

'Our residency in the Deadhouse rewarded us with - as is now clearly evident - certain gifts. Longevity, immunity to most diseases, and......other things (same again here)

Dancer later bolstered our numbers by recruiting among the refugee Napans who'd fled the conquest: Catheron Crust and his brother, Urko. And Surly - Laseen. Three more men were to follow shortly thereafter. Toc Elder, Dassem Ultor.....Tayschrenn. And finally Duiker" and here Nok shows no identification with the 'Napans' of which he is one.

and finaly Dujek being an original, means Tattersails Knowledge of 'Dujeck being 79' is totaly wrong and yet another pov taken as litaral truth.

i so wish SE or ICE would pen a small novel on this essential bit of history, infact if i was a billionare i would throw silly amounts of cash at them till they give in and wrote a trilogy.

Both you and Fakeshemp are trying to get your head around things and its a very frustrating process. Theres an inherant inconsistency,which youve both noticed, in that Hawl is killed early on yet seemed to be a highly ranked Talon who died on Drift Avalii. This,as you rightly pointed out casts doubt on Noks original family speech. Its difficult to understand admittedly but hopefully by the time youve finished the series youll have a better understanding.

I will say this about the timeline and Tattersails comment of Dujeks age in GOTM. Firstly she gives her own age as 219 or something like that which is probably a GOTMism why should her age be a likely GotMism ? Secondly, as we see from Noks speech, Dujek is described by Nok, who had already been fairly high up in the Napan Navy, as 'a lad'. Nok must, by definition of his phrase, have been significantly older by possibly 10-15 years at a minimum. Therefore by the time of GOTM Dujek may have only been 79 though he is described a not looking it, likely an effect of the Azath.

Spoiler

i got the idea that the Deadhouse base of operations was right at the start of it all ie aproximatly 100 years ago by the reckoning of the Crimson guard.

At the same time, and by this rationale, Nok must be nearing a century,possibly more, to allow hom to call Dujek 'a lad' at the founding period ofthe Empire. There arent many problems with this as Nok is described as old and we can likely chalk it upto the Azath.

i sort of think Tattersail who isnt mentioned as part of the 'Family' and indeed could have been a bit of a jenny come lately, was just wrong about Dujeks true age and probably just had the vague knowledge that Dujek was a fair bit older than he looked.

also regarding Nok and Hawl is it not possible that they didn't have a great relationship as a couple(seven year itch etc) and Hawl decided to use an oppertunity to fake her death and go deep undercover ?

This post has been edited by Wily Tuchuk: 25 October 2011 - 10:27 PM

[Drae]

So I think Hawl was "fake killed" in order to allow her to go undercover. Common theme in the series.

Why? I think it is to protect the throne of shadow.

Hawl was "killed" during the taking of malaz island... after deadhouse was occupied. I think at that point Kel and Dancer have already set their sights on Shadow realm, but did not yet have the power to take the throne. Fully realizing that should the <true> throne be taken that their plans could never come to fruition, they sent a guard. Anymore powerful a guard would cause convergence (especially if they knew about Andarist being there). Their interest in DA would have to be secret as to protect their true intentions. So they "killed" her and sent her to guard the true throne.

Nok wouldn't have known any more then the rest of the family knew of Kel and Dancers true intentions.


Crazy? or no?

This post has been edited by Drae: 26 October 2011 - 06:06 PM

[tiam]

Wily Tuchuk- Its 'widely considered on this site' (me passing the buck ) that the emphasis on books and Tattersails age is a GOTMism. I read a convincing arguement a while back (maybe one of the GOTMism threads?) about why it doesnt fit.

Drae- I cant remember the events surrounding Hawl on Drift Avalii but I dont think she was placed on Drift Avalii to 'infiltrate the island' so to speak. Its a nice idea though I think Hawl simply vanished that early on as a high ranking Talon. Its plausible that she simply ingratiated herself into the ranks to avoid the purges of the Claw given her Talon linkage. Though Hawl seems a surprise to Cotillion so its open to debate. In any case nice idea

Abyss- I keep forgetting this is the HOC forum. My apologies for the BH spoiler

[Whiskey Bass]

Drae, on 26 October 2011 - 06:06 PM, said:

So I think Hawl was "fake killed" in order to allow her to go undercover. Common theme in the series.

Why? I think it is to protect the throne of shadow.

Hawl was "killed" during the taking of malaz island... after deadhouse was occupied. I think at that point Kel and Dancer have already set their sights on Shadow realm, but did not yet have the power to take the throne. Fully realizing that should the <true> throne be taken that their plans could never come to fruition, they sent a guard. Anymore powerful a guard would cause convergence (especially if they knew about Andarist being there). Their interest in DA would have to be secret as to protect their true intentions. So they "killed" her and sent her to guard the true throne.

Nok wouldn't have known any more then the rest of the family knew of Kel and Dancers true intentions.


Crazy? or no?

sounds plausable to me

[Drae]

tiam, on 26 October 2011 - 06:49 PM, said:

Wily Tuchuk- Its 'widely considered on this site' (me passing the buck ) that the emphasis on books and Tattersails age is a GOTMism. I read a convincing arguement a while back (maybe one of the GOTMism threads?) about why it doesnt fit.

Drae- I cant remember the events surrounding Hawl on Drift Avalii but I dont think she was placed on Drift Avalii to 'infiltrate the island' so to speak. Its a nice idea though I think Hawl simply vanished that early on as a high ranking Talon. Its plausible that she simply ingratiated herself into the ranks to avoid the purges of the Claw given her Talon linkage. Though Hawl seems a surprise to Cotillion so its open to debate. In any case nice idea

Abyss- I keep forgetting this is the HOC forum. My apologies for the BH spoiler

I forgot Cot's was surprised to see her there. Kinda puts a damper on that conspiracy theory.

Still I doubt she faked her death to avoid the claw, as it happened at the taking of Malaz Island. We're the claw around then? If they were; were they yet a threat to the talons? Seems strange to cut and run at that stage. Had it been later, after the consolidation of power on the mainland I would deem it much more plausible.

Wait.... timeline.

This post has been edited by Drae: 27 October 2011 - 04:55 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

the thing is, we know literally nothing about hawl or her motivations, or why she should want to fake her death, and in the first second we meet her, she gets killed. thanks so much SE

there's also the possibility that Nok lied about when she died, this whole speech is so potentially riddled with lies and half-truths. it drives me crazy, but in a good way

This post has been edited by Minhasing Bheget: 28 October 2011 - 01:32 AM

[tiam]

Minhasing Bheget, on 28 October 2011 - 01:32 AM, said:

the thing is, we know literally nothing about hawl or her motivations, or why she should want to fake her death, and in the first second we meet her, she gets killed. thanks so much SE

there's also the possibility that Nok lied about when she died, this whole speech is so potentially riddled with lies and half-truths. it drives me crazy, but in a good way

Very true. The only thing I think we can count for certain is the actual original members. Anything else is open to debate. The thing is it would eb a really good source for the early empire period if that bitch Hawl hadnt turned up on Drift Avalii literally a few pages later.

Im glad shes dead