[Vaddon Ra]

given the idea that Kellanved is also a mad genius its not too surprising that he would recruit generals and the like. I think SE means to suggest that the core 'Family' group of the Old Guard were recruited based on their skills, but thats not to suggest that Kel and Dancer didn't recruit a bunch of nobody thugs to start with. I think in part it was luck. The Napan royal fleet was messed up by The Untans and fled to malaz...and so in this case the hiring of Surly Nok Urko and Cartheron was probably expedience and an great opportunity I would be interested to see SE flesh out in a book how it all came about. But I get the idea that they are basically thieves and criminals and they slowly take over malaz island from Mock and then through careful hiring of people (some of whome are skilled and thus get placed in the family) gradually grow into a super power

Even so...its a good series but it would be cool for SE to do a book on the old guard

[Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast]

Seriously?

[Gatekeeper]

*****Hands Jade a mug of Malaz Dark********

[Kanese S's]

Wasn't Malaz Island a sort of haven for pirates and smugglers and such ilk? Before the Empire, I mean.

[D'rek]

Kanese S, on 14 August 2011 - 10:29 AM, said:

Wasn't Malaz Island a sort of haven for pirates and smugglers and such ilk? Before the Empire, I mean.

Yes, yes it was. If anything I think that would have been a strength. Malaz City would have been full of pirates, mercenaries and other professional scoundrels willing to fight for money while the aristocratic mainland city-states' armies would have been composed mostly of the Lords' personal militias, which may not have had much experience in fighting at all.

[sting01]

the 2 authors are also 2 noted scholars on acheology I believe.

so history teach us, to start an Empire, there is no need of huge number; but hight quality troops would be crucial.

For Quon Tali continent, it is noted that it was the 'retirement with extreme prejudice' of the tutelar Godess that started the whole conquest; the wickans being a bit a part as it seems diplomacy played a critical part.

that made 1 continent, then from there, it was possible to move on, and that time with number.

Seven cities was a chore, they lost Dassem, Surly took power, the elite regiments, cadre mage, hight mages were decimated. Still , and that untill the whirlwind; Malazan discipline was given the edge in any conflict.

The problem, similar to waht happened to Napoleon, or Alexandre, was not the conquest it self; but the consolidation in deep. It was the reason behind Surly acting/treachery. So while I do accept the conquest by the 'familly'; I do believe it should be more revolts, and no waste of troops for no reasons; a political leader would never ever part with 14th army, but use them to strenghten the consolidation

[hiroprotagonist]

This world is based on their Roleplaying Campaign. Kellanved and Dancer were probably 2 characters and all of their Old Guard were also probably other player characters. Thus, 2 lowly tavern owners gained power and became rulers of an emperor, and somehow managed to surround themselves with the best possible help.

[Studlock]

They also had the First Throne, aka zombie cavemen who turn into dust and have unbreakable weapons.

[Furoan]

Studlock, on 10 October 2011 - 10:48 AM, said:

They also had the First Throne, aka zombie cavemen who turn into dust and have unbreakable weapons.

I'm pretty sure that came later. The origins were much more modest than the world spanning empire and remember that the Empire took a hundred years at least to get to the point we see when Lanseen took over (aka GoTM prologue.) The original take over was pretty much the island of Malaz, and then a copule more islands once the family and their hired soldiers/thugs/pirates had secured themselves after offing Mok the pirate.

And yes the family were filled with appalling capable people.

Also the manner in which they occupied places, making sure the army that conquered them was nowhere near when the organizers picked up the rubble was designed to minimize ill will etc. Also I have no doubt that they had plenty of recruits from places they conquered, and then they had a military system that just ground out most of the less professional armies that surrounded them.

Then as you mentioned the Undead army, though their use was used with 'restraint' by the empire, barring that one city. Also don't forget the mage assassins and then the ample use of Magic on the Malazan's side, as well as Munitions etc.

The empire rose quickly but still it took over a hundred years to you get to Pale from Malaz.

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

Don't have my book on hand, but it's mentioned in RG that Kellanved et al were considered just another bunch of pirates until the T'lan Imass helped them take over Li Heng.

[Kanese S's]

D, on 16 August 2011 - 12:25 AM, said:

Kanese S, on 14 August 2011 - 10:29 AM, said:

Wasn't Malaz Island a sort of haven for pirates and smugglers and such ilk? Before the Empire, I mean.

Yes, yes it was. If anything I think that would have been a strength. Malaz City would have been full of pirates, mercenaries and other professional scoundrels willing to fight for money while the aristocratic mainland city-states' armies would have been composed mostly of the Lords' personal militias, which may not have had much experience in fighting at all.

Exactly what I was getting at. In such a place, there would have been ample supply of people who were skilled at doing dangerous things and not dying from these activities. Kellanved and Dancer would have had quite the talent pool to draw from.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

POOPOO MCBUMFACE, on 11 October 2011 - 08:23 AM, said:

Don't have my book on hand, but it's mentioned in RG that Kellanved et al were considered just another bunch of pirates until the T'lan Imass helped them take over Li Heng.

This, The T'lann Imass were instrumental in the conquest of both Quon Tali and Seven Cities ,were mages were negated by the easily available otataral.

[Studlock]

Kanese S, on 11 October 2011 - 07:09 PM, said:

D, on 16 August 2011 - 12:25 AM, said:

Kanese S, on 14 August 2011 - 10:29 AM, said:

Wasn't Malaz Island a sort of haven for pirates and smugglers and such ilk? Before the Empire, I mean.

Yes, yes it was. If anything I think that would have been a strength. Malaz City would have been full of pirates, mercenaries and other professional scoundrels willing to fight for money while the aristocratic mainland city-states' armies would have been composed mostly of the Lords' personal militias, which may not have had much experience in fighting at all.

Exactly what I was getting at. In such a place, there would have been ample supply of people who were skilled at doing dangerous things and not dying from these activities. Kellanved and Dancer would have had quite the talent pool to draw from.

And on top of this not all of Quon Tali was conquered overnight I assume they had more to work with after they took over or made a deal with certain cities like Unta and Li Heng.

[D'iversify]

Another point that I believe is made in one of the chapter headings in RotCG is that Quon Tali had been so long fought over between Unta and the city of Quon Tali that much of the continent was (a) institutionally, economically and demographically severely weakened (the population swells once the Malazans bring peace, which implies ikt was depressed by war), (b) very inclined to be sympathetic to a third force who weren't Untans or Talians.

This post has been edited by D'iversify: 16 October 2011 - 06:45 PM

[fakeshemp]

Nok also mentions to Tavore and Gamet when telling them the story of the rise of Kellanved/Dancer and the family that the original family (before Surly, Crust and the other Napan joined I assume) were recruited "only just" before they were granted access to the Deadhouse in Malaz City. That they used the Deadhouse as a base of operations and it rewarded them with "..certain gifts. Longevity, immunity to most diseases, and..... other things." Given the power at work in Azath houses, I'm interested what those "other things" may be. Could someone with natural ability maybe find that ability enhanced perhaps? So all these Napan refugees and other shady figures they had opportunity to recruit from may well have become... more than they originally were? I could be way off here as I am only just reading HoC for the first time.

[Whiskey Bass]

i came to the same conclusion, i think all the 'Deadhouse dwellers' received 'gifts and enhancements' from their time there.

if i could ask SE one thing it would have to be 'Who where the family members who resided in the deadhouse' ? as my theory's seem to be at odds with the thoughts of most others on this site

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

In addition to the 'gifts' the last 2 posters talked about, residing in the deadhouse meant they had literally the strongest castle/base of operations in the world. Nobody on Malaz could get near it, and certainly no force could assault it.

[tiam]

Wily Tuchuk, on 22 October 2011 - 04:40 PM, said:

i came to the same conclusion, i think all the 'Deadhouse dwellers' received 'gifts and enhancements' from their time there.

if i could ask SE one thing it would have to be 'Who where the family members who resided in the deadhouse' ? as my theory's seem to be at odds with the thoughts of most others on this site

HOC MMPB p.296 gives a list of the original family.

In addition the Imass cannot be overstated. Where told that Kellenved was circumspent when using them yet they were integral in the conquest of Quon Tali and 7c. While the massacre of Aren was a distinct phase of the conquest the threat of wholesale destruction implied by the Imass in 7c was very important. As someone upthread has already spoiled in RG its mentioned that they pretty much gifted Kellenved Li Heng, the most defendable city on the continent. Theres other information in ROTCG about the conquest but on the whole the Imass were the true power behind the throne.

This post has been edited by tiam: 22 October 2011 - 06:37 PM

[Whiskey Bass]

tiam, on 22 October 2011 - 06:34 PM, said:

Wily Tuchuk, on 22 October 2011 - 04:40 PM, said:

i came to the same conclusion, i think all the 'Deadhouse dwellers' received 'gifts and enhancements' from their time there.

if i could ask SE one thing it would have to be 'Who where the family members who resided in the deadhouse' ? as my theory's seem to be at odds with the thoughts of most others on this site

HOC MMPB p.296 gives a list of the original family.

could anyone quote fu that for me ?