[Abyss]

LinearPhilosopher, on 09 May 2018 - 08:47 PM, said:

Real talk, if ford gets elected whats our WCS
...

[Nevyn]

LinearPhilosopher, on 09 May 2018 - 08:47 PM, said:

Real talk, if ford gets elected whats our WCS

If he gets a majority?

We still run a deficit, he cuts indiscriminately, throws money at subways Tory isn't even asking for (because he would make the money contingent on subways), demolishes already operating wind power, dumps a conservative social agenda on the classroom. Oh, and ends up in court against the federal government over carbon pricing.

But as with Trump in the states there is a larger picture that people overlook.

The worst case of a Ford election would live far past a Ford term. First, because of the way it would further degrade and polarize our political discourse, both in the legislature and in society in general.

Second, it would massively erode standards of how we expect our politicians to conduct themselves, and normalize loutish behaviour.

And third, it is quite simply vitally important that this choice of leader be strongly rejected. Parties always have more extreme elements within their base, which get moderated for a broader appeal. Leaders like Ford have generally not gotten through in the past due to a perception of unelectability. So a breakthrough win for Ford, not only a lying, oafish, uninformed candidate, but also one with zero provincial government experience, could have long term ill effects in the leaders that parties select.

The conservatives had the unloseable election, and first had the Brown scandal, and then picked this buffoon. They need to get the message that indulging in that cost them a mandate. This does not just apply provincially either. The people being riled up and convinced that Ford is ok will be federal voters in the future too. Populist BS needs to die.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 10 May 2018 - 03:46 PM

[QuickTidal]

Wow, NDP jumped in the polls, to overtake the Liberals as the non-PC party opposer. It could mean absolutely jack....but it's interesting to see nonetheless. Perhaps it speaks to how sick of Wynne people are, and how much they don't want Ford.

[Mentalist]

QuickTidal, on 15 May 2018 - 04:09 PM, said:

Wow, NDP jumped in the polls, to overtake the Liberals as the non-PC party opposer. It could mean absolutely jack....but it's interesting to see nonetheless. Perhaps it speaks to how sick of Wynne people are, and how much they don't want Ford.

Unless those votes are widespread enough to actually win seats from Libs in lib ridings, I don't think it'll amount to much.

[QuickTidal]

Mentalist, on 15 May 2018 - 06:09 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 15 May 2018 - 04:09 PM, said:

Wow, NDP jumped in the polls, to overtake the Liberals as the non-PC party opposer. It could mean absolutely jack....but it's interesting to see nonetheless. Perhaps it speaks to how sick of Wynne people are, and how much they don't want Ford.

Unless those votes are widespread enough to actually win seats from Libs in lib ridings, I don't think it'll amount to much.

Probably not, but I'm starting to wonder if this is the shift that's going to occur under our noses.

[Nevyn]

With Doug Ford as the boogeyman and the Liberals facing a lot of anger. a wave of their support base and seats going to the NDP would not be a massive upset.

For left of centre voters, the hill Horvath has to climb is one of plausible contention. Polling ahead of Wynne is thus a big development.

[Morgoth]

knowing very little about Canadian politics, why is this Wynne person so unpopular?

[EmperorMagus]

Morgoth, on 16 May 2018 - 06:59 AM, said:

knowing very little about Canadian politics, why is this Wynne person so unpopular?

On one hand, there are allegation of corruption and cronyism. For example, people attribute the high price of hydro (electricity) to mismanagement by the liberal Party and in turn Wynne. Then there's the issue of her decision to suddenly increase the minimum wage to $15 (which annoyed small and large businesses). There's also her government's policy of comprehensive sexual education in school from a young age, which annoys everybody religious (From Muslims to Christians) as well as most immigrant communities from more conservatives parts of the world.

On the other hand, there is the fact that she's a woman and that she's gay; of course, this doesn't mean that people's concerns with her behavior are unfounded, it just means that where a man would have to bend over for 15 minutes she has to bend over for 15 hours.

Finally, her party has been in power for 14 years and people are just sick and tired of them.

For a more accurate summary of facts from someone far smarter than me, see blow:

http://www.macleans....l-so-unpopular/

[Nevyn]

Morgoth, on 16 May 2018 - 06:59 AM, said:

knowing very little about Canadian politics, why is this Wynne person so unpopular?

First and foremost, her party has been in power for 15 years.

Her predecessor left right before an election with scandal hanging over his head. And Wynne basically only one because of the utter incompetence of the parties running against her (the NDP tried to shift to the right, and the PC leader boldly talked about getting rid of 100,000 public jobs).

So even if she had done everything right, there would be strong sentiment for change.


But running down the other general grievances:



The wedge issues with right wing voters:

• She introduced a new curriculum for sex education, which started teaching it earlier, while also dealing with topics such as same sex, transgender, etc etc. Social conservatives went nuts over this and have not stopped. And in Ontario social conservative doesn't just mean white. There are some quite traditional immigrant communities who also hate this.
• She is raising the minimum wage to $15. This started with a big jump to $14, and in a year goes to $15. While that could buy some votes, small businesses and conservatives are up in arms about it. And it also coincided with federal liberal talk of changing tax policy in a way that would also hurt some of the same business owners. While the latter is not her fault, that combined with the wage hike has fueled the resentment of the party in general.
• After running a long term deficit, they finally made it somewhere close to balance, but have now been handing out money like candy, and are barely even trying to achieve future balance.
• She introduced a carbon pricing scheme. There would have been a federal one imposed if she didn't, but still.

Regional wedge issues:

• Her party made a big push for wind power, and that meant forcing windmills in rural areas where the liberals already were not popular. Some of that predated her, but the resentment still looms.
• She is promising a big spend on high speed rail between Toronto and Windsor, and that has a lot of landowners within that corridor a bit concerned about land being appropriated, and impact on local roads.

Wedge issues with the left and with cities:

• Toronto is underfunded and doesn't want to raise their (low) property taxes because no one in Toronto can afford their house as is. In the meantime, the city has many costs do to outside commuters and visitors, so the mayor was moving to have some major routes into the city become toll roads, which Wynne originally seemed set to allow, and then blocked out of fear of losing commuting voters in the surrounding area.

The stuff that nobody likes:

• She was just involved enough in the prior government that some of the scandals plaguing McGuinty have wiped off on her.
• There was also a scandal alleging she bribed a potential liberal candidate not to run so a favourite candidate could.
• Her government privatized the provincial electricity generation company, which gave a temporary boost to the books, but in the longer term will mean higher hydro costs. It is exactly the type of move the liberals used to decry the Harris PC party for having done.
• With the federal government pushing to legalize marijuana, they left it up to provinces to regulate, and the Wynne government chose to institute it like alcohol, with a government run monopoly and regulation body. So she gets hit not only by people who don't want it legal or in their community, and by people who hate the LCBO model already and just wanted it legal for private enterprise to sell.
• Most importantly, she has shown to be a leader without a real stand in principle on anything. Even if you like the minimum wage hike, she timed it with the election year in a desperate move to get over. After moves which raised Hydro rates, she moved to cut them last year but in such a way that they will just be higher later. And then there was the toll road flip flop. People don't like politicians who will do anything to stay in power, and Wynne has been making desperation moves for 2 years.
• edit: Oh yeah, and the provinces own budget watchdog says they are underreporting the deficit by billions with some questionable accounting.

I think that about sums it up.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 16 May 2018 - 02:19 PM

[QuickTidal]

It really bothers me that the Libs put her up AGAIN after all this crap. Put up damn near anyone else in the spot and they could have this election in the bag. How does this occur? Is it just because no one in the party wanted to run against her for the spot?

Why didn't they hold another leadership convention and take a new vote to challenge her?

[Nevyn]

Parties don't really remove leaders while they are in government. Either the leader walks or they don't.

And for the liberals, it is probably better for her to stay and take the hit from voters than to put up a new sacrificial lamb who will still get tagged with all her baggage and faitgue for the party.

It just sucks for those of us appalled by the alternatives that have been put forward.

For my part, I am fine with her facing the voters, I just wish she had led into it in a more principled way. I think that could have led to a quicker recovery for the party, and while they likely would have lost, they would have been less danger of a wipeout.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 16 May 2018 - 02:13 PM

[Nevyn]

Ugh, now Ford is promising to cut 10 cents off the gas tax.

Triple whammy. Not good for the environment, bad for the government's books, and the purported savings will be at least swallowed by opportunistic retailers with a keen sense of what the market will bear.

Can we please get some sane parties?

[Mentalist]

Nevyn, on 16 May 2018 - 05:56 PM, said:

Ugh, now Ford is promising to cut 10 cents off the gas tax.

Triple whammy. Not good for the environment, bad for the government's books, and the purported savings will be at least swallowed by opportunistic retailers with a keen sense of what the market will bear.

Can we please get some sane parties?

Thinking politicians are traditionally in demand with only small percentage of voters.

Mostly unrelated: met Jagmeet Singh today. He's definitely has charisma when speaking.

[Gintokian]

Nevyn, on 16 May 2018 - 05:56 PM, said:

Ugh, now Ford is promising to cut 10 cents off the gas tax.

Triple whammy. Not good for the environment, bad for the government's books, and the purported savings will be at least swallowed by opportunistic retailers with a keen sense of what the market will bear.

Can we please get some sane parties?

Apparently not. He also wants to get rid of the foreign buyers tax, let the market decide housing prices. Which I think is the stupidest idea I've ever heard. Prices right now are ridiculous, especially in Toronto and in Oakville with foreigners buying tons of the houses for sale. My friend's parents just sold their house, in 1 day, with 3 foreign families bidding on it until it sold for $1.2M when it was listed for $800K. A few years ago that house was worth $350K max. Now I have no problem with immigration or anything it's just when the market's being driven insanely high so Canadian's can't even afford houses then I think there's a problem, especially when they're just buying to rent them out or spend most of their time overseas.

With the tax right now or even an increased tax there's a chance young people like myself may actually be able to buy a house in the future. Once the baby boomers start retiring and wanting to sell no one will be able to afford the current prices so the prices will fall. If they get rid of the foreign buyers tax then the market will just keep going up and young Canadians will never be able to afford a house.
As a young person this concerns me the most because I would like to have a house some time in the future but I don't want to have to live somewhere in the booneys because I don't have a million dollars to spend on a 2 bedroom townhouse.

[Abyss]

No other Lib candidate wants to be remembered as the one who lost to Doug Ford.

[D'rek]

Nevyn, on 16 May 2018 - 05:56 PM, said:

Ugh, now Ford is promising to cut 10 cents off the gas tax.

Wynne could have countered with almost anything. "This plan doesn't make sense."; "Doug Ford won't actually do this."; "Doug Ford can't actually do this."; "This will just make the debt worse."

What does Wynne *actually* counter with? "Most people won't feel it"

[Mentalist]

Well, PC is throwing enormous ad money into the anti-NDP smear campaign in the last stretch.

In my case, the joke's on them, since I came to Canada in the end of 1999, so "Remember the 90s" doesn't apply.

Still, it's sad to see that campaign seems to be working

[EmperorMagus]

Mentalist, on 03 June 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

Well, PC is throwing enormous ad money into the anti-NDP smear campaign in the last stretch.

In my case, the joke's on them, since I came to Canada in the end of 1999, so "Remember the 90s" doesn't apply.

Still, it's sad to see that campaign seems to be working

Well, I'm sure Ford won't be too bad and you guys in Ontario will have a ton of fun with him.
It's not like he can do much damage anyways.


/s

Seriously though, it is terrifying to see that this sort of Trumpain politics can infiltrate Canada so easily and make a moron like Ford the premier of Ontario so ... effortlessly.

[Abyss]

Winner and the Libs have thrown in the towel, so.... this is gonna be ugly.

[Gintokian]

EmperorMagus, on 03 June 2018 - 04:10 PM, said:

Mentalist, on 03 June 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

Well, PC is throwing enormous ad money into the anti-NDP smear campaign in the last stretch.

In my case, the joke's on them, since I came to Canada in the end of 1999, so "Remember the 90s" doesn't apply.

Still, it's sad to see that campaign seems to be working

Well, I'm sure Ford won't be too bad and you guys in Ontario will have a ton of fun with him.
It's not like he can do much damage anyways.


/s

Seriously though, it is terrifying to see that this sort of Trumpain politics can infiltrate Canada so easily and make a moron like Ford the premier of Ontario so ... effortlessly.

I think it's more the fact that everyone hates Wynne and the libs this time around and the conservatives could have put literally anyone (and they did) out and they would win. Although I don't think they'll have enough for a majority, if they had chosen anyone else it would have been easy