[Mentalist]

QuickTidal, on 26 April 2018 - 01:50 PM, said:

Arg.

Well, the guy is talking and has ZERO remorse, and says....you guessed it....incel shit. He did it because women rejected him.

Sigh. Any chance jailtime will slap the shitheaded arrogance out of him? Somehow I doubt it.

[Gintokian]

Mentalist, on 26 April 2018 - 02:09 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 April 2018 - 01:50 PM, said:

Arg.

Well, the guy is talking and has ZERO remorse, and says....you guessed it....incel shit. He did it because women rejected him.

Sigh. Any chance jailtime will slap the shitheaded arrogance out of him? Somehow I doubt it.

Yeah he may not be an incel much longer after going to prison, but probably not in the way he wanted...

[LinearPhilosopher]

Gintokian, on 26 April 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

Mentalist, on 26 April 2018 - 02:09 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 April 2018 - 01:50 PM, said:

Arg.

Well, the guy is talking and has ZERO remorse, and says....you guessed it....incel shit. He did it because women rejected him.

Sigh. Any chance jailtime will slap the shitheaded arrogance out of him? Somehow I doubt it.

Yeah he may not be an incel much longer after going to prison, but probably not in the way he wanted...

I imagine he will be quite popular among the inmates, though the thought brings little joy to me. People are already dead, but im at a loss as to how to prevent this things in the future.

The internet definitely did play a role in that all these people who would usually be loners are meeting each other and radicalizing each other. But on the flip side, its not like we're China and can just censor the net (and i've no idea how successful the Chinese are)

So this leaves mental health as the problem. Though im at a loss for this sort of thing also.

This post has been edited by LinearPhilosopher: 07 May 2018 - 03:11 PM

[QuickTidal]

LinearPhilosopher, on 07 May 2018 - 03:08 PM, said:

its not like we're China and can just censor the net (and i've no idea how successful the Chinese are)

They aren't very successful at it. Defeating the Great Firewall of China is the job of a half-way decent VPN according to those I know of who live there.

[amphibian]

Gintokian, on 26 April 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

Mentalist, on 26 April 2018 - 02:09 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 April 2018 - 01:50 PM, said:

Arg.

Well, the guy is talking and has ZERO remorse, and says....you guessed it....incel shit. He did it because women rejected him.

Sigh. Any chance jailtime will slap the shitheaded arrogance out of him? Somehow I doubt it.

Yeah he may not be an incel much longer after going to prison, but probably not in the way he wanted...

This is an awful thing to state. The goal is zero sexual assault, not just protecting those who do not deserve it. Nobody deserves sexual assault.

[Abyss]

LinearPhilosopher, on 07 May 2018 - 03:08 PM, said:

...
The internet definitely did play a role in that all these people who would usually be loners are meeting each other and radicalizing each other....

Counterpoint - a mentally ill person looking for a cause to fixate on is going to find one. Take away the internet and he'll pick it out of the newspaper, or posters on telephone polls.

A hate-ridden person looking for a reason to do something bad is going to find a justification on the same basis.

A mentally ill hate-ridden person... moreso.

There is probably a subset who one might reasonably say were spurned on by the internet, but on the balance i think the internet just makes the impact louder for something that was likely to happen anyways.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 07 May 2018 - 05:00 PM, said:

LinearPhilosopher, on 07 May 2018 - 03:08 PM, said:

...
The internet definitely did play a role in that all these people who would usually be loners are meeting each other and radicalizing each other....

Counterpoint - a mentally ill person looking for a cause to fixate on is going to find one. Take away the internet and he'll pick it out of the newspaper, or posters on telephone polls.

A hate-ridden person looking for a reason to do something bad is going to find a justification on the same basis.

A mentally ill hate-ridden person... moreso.

There is probably a subset who one might reasonably say were spurned on by the internet, but on the balance i think the internet just makes the impact louder for something that was likely to happen anyways.

^^this.

[Gintokian]

Abyss, on 07 May 2018 - 05:00 PM, said:

LinearPhilosopher, on 07 May 2018 - 03:08 PM, said:

...
The internet definitely did play a role in that all these people who would usually be loners are meeting each other and radicalizing each other....

Counterpoint - a mentally ill person looking for a cause to fixate on is going to find one. Take away the internet and he'll pick it out of the newspaper, or posters on telephone polls.

A hate-ridden person looking for a reason to do something bad is going to find a justification on the same basis.

A mentally ill hate-ridden person... moreso.

There is probably a subset who one might reasonably say were spurned on by the internet, but on the balance i think the internet just makes the impact louder for something that was likely to happen anyways.

I do agree with what you're saying for the most part, but I think that these type of groups can exacerbate the hate and encourage bad things. Normally society discourages these types of acts but on the internet you can finds groups that glorify it and encourage others to do these things.
I know coming onto this website has made me like the malazan world more and get deeper into it, maybe if I had never found it I would have just moved on after reading the series. Finding communities with similar interests can spark growth in those interests.

Now I'm not saying the internet is totally to blame, clearly this man had a mental illness, I just think it's worth looking at. And no, I have no idea how we would fix this as censorship wouldn't fix anything, it would probably make it worse.

[LinearPhilosopher]

Abyss, on 07 May 2018 - 05:00 PM, said:

LinearPhilosopher, on 07 May 2018 - 03:08 PM, said:

...
The internet definitely did play a role in that all these people who would usually be loners are meeting each other and radicalizing each other....

Counterpoint - a mentally ill person looking for a cause to fixate on is going to find one. Take away the internet and he'll pick it out of the newspaper, or posters on telephone polls.

A hate-ridden person looking for a reason to do something bad is going to find a justification on the same basis.

A mentally ill hate-ridden person... moreso.

There is probably a subset who one might reasonably say were spurned on by the internet, but on the balance i think the internet just makes the impact louder for something that was likely to happen anyways.

I call your counterpoint and raise you a counter counter point.

The majority of the people who are in these communities would never had met each other. Incels are a whole are disgusting but not every incel is out there driving trucks into people. Not every mentally ill person is an incel. Some i imagine are just terrible people who without the internet would never meet other equally terrible people. It came up during an episode of, i think it was as it happens? The fact they have these communities they are exposed to other vitriol and it just creates an echo chamber of hate which gets progressively stronger.

[Gintokian]

amphibian, on 07 May 2018 - 04:57 PM, said:

Gintokian, on 26 April 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

Mentalist, on 26 April 2018 - 02:09 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 April 2018 - 01:50 PM, said:

Arg.

Well, the guy is talking and has ZERO remorse, and says....you guessed it....incel shit. He did it because women rejected him.

Sigh. Any chance jailtime will slap the shitheaded arrogance out of him? Somehow I doubt it.

Yeah he may not be an incel much longer after going to prison, but probably not in the way he wanted...

This is an awful thing to state. The goal is zero sexual assault, not just protecting those who do not deserve it. Nobody deserves sexual assault.

You know what? You're absolutely right, that was pretty fucking insensitive.
It's really easy nowadays to jump on the wagon of justice and vengeance without thinking about forgiveness and rehabilitation. I think it has to do with out social media "call-out culture" where everyone wants to call out other people for doing something wrong and see them get their comeuppance but never trying to help these people change. This guy definitely had a mental illness and absolutely did something horrific, but we should for sure be looking at ways to prevent this happening in the future and see if there's anything to be done to help this fellow change.

[D'rek]

LinearPhilosopher, on 07 May 2018 - 08:08 PM, said:

Abyss, on 07 May 2018 - 05:00 PM, said:

LinearPhilosopher, on 07 May 2018 - 03:08 PM, said:

...
The internet definitely did play a role in that all these people who would usually be loners are meeting each other and radicalizing each other....

Counterpoint - a mentally ill person looking for a cause to fixate on is going to find one. Take away the internet and he'll pick it out of the newspaper, or posters on telephone polls.

A hate-ridden person looking for a reason to do something bad is going to find a justification on the same basis.

A mentally ill hate-ridden person... moreso.

There is probably a subset who one might reasonably say were spurned on by the internet, but on the balance i think the internet just makes the impact louder for something that was likely to happen anyways.

I call your counterpoint and raise you a counter counter point.

The majority of the people who are in these communities would never had met each other. Incels are a whole are disgusting but not every incel is out there driving trucks into people. Not every mentally ill person is an incel. Some i imagine are just terrible people who without the internet would never meet other equally terrible people. It came up during an episode of, i think it was as it happens? The fact they have these communities they are exposed to other vitriol and it just creates an echo chamber of hate which gets progressively stronger.

Before there were subreddits there were message boards. Before that, there were IRC groups. Before that, email lists. Before that, magazine subscriptions. Before that, mass snail mail mailing lists. Before that, travelling speakers and local chapter meet-ups at someone's house.

I mean, the topic and beliefs of incels and Freemasons are totally different, but they're both basically tight-knit and secretive fraternal organizations. Freemasons managed to organize and share ideas with each other across huge distances back in, like, the 14th century.

Remember when (I don't, 'cause I wasn't alive, but you know...) before home computers were a thing how the small number of widely distributed anime fans had phone and mailing lists, and would setup VHS "drops" of new imported and copied series that they would mail out to other fans across the continent?

The internet makes it easier for small, distributed population subsets to organize, but it's certainly not impossible without the 'net, and there's many examples of other groups with similar demographics organizing before there was the internet.

At most, I'd say the internet is an accelerant, as it lets them organize more easily and lets prospective new members join more easily, but at the same time doesn't the internet also make it easier for someone to join all the online communities that will promote positive, healthy thinking, or even reform a troubled individual that otherwise would have joined a toxic group?

[Gorefest]

It sure beats tape-trading.

[Morgoth]

Gothos, on 19 March 2018 - 10:03 AM, said:

Hm. I must say I'm a bit disappointed by the tone of some of your criticisms of Peterson. Crackpot, loon, delusional, scummy... Really? It's not like we're dealing with flat earthers or anti-vaxxers here, think we should keep some sense of scale!

Look, there's plenty he says I don't really agree with (first and foremost being a need for a supreme being), but at the very least he's very civil about his points. This brings me joy because political 'discourse' in my own country
usually descends into "NO U" screaming matches within 5 minutes of starting. I would hazard a guess that none of you are exactly happy about hearing people shriek and claw and spit at political rallies while throwing memorized slogans
that they read on some blog. I've more sympathy for someone I can disagree with in a civil manner than someone I can agree with that behaves like a rabid animal.

While his conclusions may often be somewhat off, the points from which he starts his theories are (at least from my point of view) just as often true. I mostly like to hear his psychology stuff (side note: it's annoying how people keep
spamming fragments from his lectures on youtube with completely misleading titles), and from that - growing popularity of being a victim in western society, an interesting view on 21st century class war (from ownership vs labor to white straight males vs anyone else in existence) and the resulting growth of group identity over individuality (in groups that are, on paper, supposed to fight for individuality). I also liked when he spoke that the growing far left is leading to an analogous growth on the far right - I can tell you for sure from my own country that, wether it's baseless or not, the 'ordinary folk' do feel threathened and under siege by 'progressives' and this does lead to an almost allergic reaction of society - a growing popularity of populist factions... just saying, it's a fair point.

Now, not to derail the topic too much, I think I won't go deeper for now... but hey.

Nah, Jordan Peterson is a loon, or a cynical asshole, whom peddles in far right conspiracy theories. There is no difference between his "theories" on postmodernism and anti-vaxxers. Both are equally distanced from reality, and both cause serious harm to society and to individuals. That he is polite in spreading his hate is entirely irrelevant.

Gintokian, on 30 March 2018 - 12:45 PM, said:

LinearPhilosopher, on 30 March 2018 - 04:11 AM, said:

What was your area of depth on the CFE?

My area of depth was Assurance, I'm not planning to go into auditing or anything at the moment but if I ever do want to go into public acccounting I had to take it. Kind of a shame because I would have liked to take the finance or PM courses but oh well.

There are a lot of good university programs that can lead to good jobs but at the same time there are a lot of useless programs that won't help you very much. Especially nowadays when everyone and their cat have bachelors degrees it doesn't mean much anymore so in order to stand our people need to get post grad education. I know lots of people that end up going to college after uni to get more practical learning and have an advantage. So now instead of leaving school with just student loans for 1 degree you have to pay for 2.

This is a very american way of looking at education (I know I know, you're Canadian). A degree is not useless because it fails to increase your job prospects. Unless you consider a job to be the only meaningful aspect of a persons life. That seems a sad and poor way of looking at the world though.

[Gothos]

Morgoth, on 08 May 2018 - 08:08 AM, said:

Nah, Jordan Peterson is a loon, or a cynical asshole, whom peddles in far right conspiracy theories. There is no difference between his "theories" on postmodernism and anti-vaxxers. Both are equally distanced from reality, and both cause serious harm to society and to individuals. That he is polite in spreading his hate is entirely irrelevant.

That looks quite silly right next to your signature looks like the only hate here flows out from your fingers. It's easy to start crying 'hate' and 'loon' and use air quotes in your speech, but it also gives you zero credibility. Looks like being civil and friendly, even to the devil, is just all talk

There is plenty difference between his theories and anti-vaxxers - his theories don't run the risk of causing a return of deadly epidemics and hundreds of thousands of dead children. If you want to equal the harm to society from one to the other, I can't help you. Feeling offended and/or repressed vs death by measles is no contest. There is nothing in this world more ridiculous and dangerous than people who don't vaccinate their children by choice.



AAAANYWAS. Censoring the internet by politics after an attack like that would be as wrong as at any other time. Repressing political movements is about as effective as beating your kids.

[Morgoth]

So, from what I'm reading here, you don't understand what censorship is, nor the difference between disgust and offence, nor really what it means to be civil.

You have plenty of white supremacists whom quite politely argue for the expulsion of all jews from their country, but that's hardly civil nor worthy of anything but disgust. Jordan Peterson is much the same. He peddles a far right conspiracy theory popularized by neo nazis and others of their ilk in just another of their many anti-intelectual, anti-education, tools. He argues for a grand, international conspiracy in western society as a whole, but especially in western universities, to push a specific globalist and marxist agenda. If you think that's the least bit sensible you seriously need to reevaluate your views.

It's, I think, especially telling that in your little rant against my lack of civility, you claim that my stance against Jordan Peterson is because I am offended. I didn't expect you to draw forth the far right talking points quite so quickly (or not at all really, I guess maybe I thought better of you), but then that is very much how Peterson and his followers act too. Pretensions of politeness while they accuse those whom disagree of censorship and being offended. You can call me a snowflake too, if you think it'll help.

It's not a cause of hurt feelings versus measels, which you clearly understand but chose to present otherwise. It's a case of two anti-intelectual conspiracy theories that cause lasting and serious damage to the society they take root in. One can result in measels, the other in the murder of almost 70 children.

[LinearPhilosopher]

Morgoth, on 08 May 2018 - 08:08 AM, said:

Gothos, on 19 March 2018 - 10:03 AM, said:

Hm. I must say I'm a bit disappointed by the tone of some of your criticisms of Peterson. Crackpot, loon, delusional, scummy... Really? It's not like we're dealing with flat earthers or anti-vaxxers here, think we should keep some sense of scale!

Look, there's plenty he says I don't really agree with (first and foremost being a need for a supreme being), but at the very least he's very civil about his points. This brings me joy because political 'discourse' in my own country
usually descends into "NO U" screaming matches within 5 minutes of starting. I would hazard a guess that none of you are exactly happy about hearing people shriek and claw and spit at political rallies while throwing memorized slogans
that they read on some blog. I've more sympathy for someone I can disagree with in a civil manner than someone I can agree with that behaves like a rabid animal.

While his conclusions may often be somewhat off, the points from which he starts his theories are (at least from my point of view) just as often true. I mostly like to hear his psychology stuff (side note: it's annoying how people keep
spamming fragments from his lectures on youtube with completely misleading titles), and from that - growing popularity of being a victim in western society, an interesting view on 21st century class war (from ownership vs labor to white straight males vs anyone else in existence) and the resulting growth of group identity over individuality (in groups that are, on paper, supposed to fight for individuality). I also liked when he spoke that the growing far left is leading to an analogous growth on the far right - I can tell you for sure from my own country that, wether it's baseless or not, the 'ordinary folk' do feel threathened and under siege by 'progressives' and this does lead to an almost allergic reaction of society - a growing popularity of populist factions... just saying, it's a fair point.

Now, not to derail the topic too much, I think I won't go deeper for now... but hey.

Nah, Jordan Peterson is a loon, or a cynical asshole, whom peddles in far right conspiracy theories. There is no difference between his "theories" on postmodernism and anti-vaxxers. Both are equally distanced from reality, and both cause serious harm to society and to individuals. That he is polite in spreading his hate is entirely irrelevant.

Gintokian, on 30 March 2018 - 12:45 PM, said:

LinearPhilosopher, on 30 March 2018 - 04:11 AM, said:

What was your area of depth on the CFE?

My area of depth was Assurance, I'm not planning to go into auditing or anything at the moment but if I ever do want to go into public acccounting I had to take it. Kind of a shame because I would have liked to take the finance or PM courses but oh well.

There are a lot of good university programs that can lead to good jobs but at the same time there are a lot of useless programs that won't help you very much. Especially nowadays when everyone and their cat have bachelors degrees it doesn't mean much anymore so in order to stand our people need to get post grad education. I know lots of people that end up going to college after uni to get more practical learning and have an advantage. So now instead of leaving school with just student loans for 1 degree you have to pay for 2.

This is a very american way of looking at education (I know I know, you're Canadian). A degree is not useless because it fails to increase your job prospects. Unless you consider a job to be the only meaningful aspect of a persons life. That seems a sad and poor way of looking at the world though.

Education is an investment, most of the time a poor one. You're correct in that a job is not the most meaningful aspect of life (though it is where you will spend most of your waking hours), however the issue that arise is one of young people being cash strapped to pay back loans to do their studies and the result of that degree is not a better job that would ease that burden. Given the impact of poor finances on one health and lifestyle, they'd have been better off not going to uni, or going to uni later in life when finances wouldn't be an issue. The fact most people go to uni, only to find out no jobs exists which forces them to go to college which forces them to take more debt etc...

Most people who to go uni do it cause its the thing school tells them to do, not necessarily because they want to "get an education". In light that, most degrees are useless

This post has been edited by LinearPhilosopher: 08 May 2018 - 03:16 PM

[Nevyn]

Morgoth, on 08 May 2018 - 08:08 AM, said:

This is a very american way of looking at education (I know I know, you're Canadian). A degree is not useless because it fails to increase your job prospects. Unless you consider a job to be the only meaningful aspect of a persons life. That seems a sad and poor way of looking at the world though.

There are other kinds of worth.

But when you are evaluating the cost of borrowing in order to get said education, the return on investment is a fair measure.


Just because an experience or learning can be meaningful doesn't mean that it is worth incurring mid 5 figures or more in debt to gain.




And if you want a specific education in spite of job prospects, and don't expect a benefit to job prospects, what would stop you from first seeking the job, then using the job to fund that education part time over several years?

[D'rek]

So, anyone else watch the Ontario leadership debate? I watched it this morning. Does Doug Ford actually have a platform? All this "I don't have a plan, but I'll do the best things" talk... at least Trump had the Wall promise (illogical or not). And Wynne sure made Horwath look good.

Also, the Star is reporting that the PCs paid actors to be Ford supporters.

[Gintokian]

D, on 08 May 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

So, anyone else watch the Ontario leadership debate? I watched it this morning. Does Doug Ford actually have a platform? All this "I don't have a plan, but I'll do the best things" talk... at least Trump had the Wall promise (illogical or not). And Wynne sure made Horwath look good.

Also, the Star is reporting that the PCs paid actors to be Ford supporters.

$75 for 6 hours work? wow that's pretty terrible, is that not less than minimum wage ha. All these candidates are jokes it seems. No idea who to vote for.

[Abyss]

Gintokian, on 08 May 2018 - 05:38 PM, said:

D, on 08 May 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

So, anyone else watch the Ontario leadership debate? I watched it this morning. Does Doug Ford actually have a platform? All this "I don't have a plan, but I'll do the best things" talk... at least Trump had the Wall promise (illogical or not). And Wynne sure made Horwath look good.

Also, the Star is reporting that the PCs paid actors to be Ford supporters.

$75 for 6 hours work? wow that's pretty terrible, is that not less than minimum wage ha. All these candidates are jokes it seems. No idea who to vote for.

I suspect this will come down to the lesser evil / the devil you know / who will likely screw the province up the least.