[Nevyn]

QuickTidal, on 27 November 2018 - 05:39 PM, said:

So, considering the fact that GM was bailed out to the tune of like 13.7 BILLION in 2009...I find the shuttering of the Oshawa plant to be really troubling. You don't get a massive bailout (largest in Canadian history) and then shut those doors 9-10 years later during a global restructuring (and a 2.5billion$ profit report for the company). I feel like the government should be asking GM for a significant portion of that money back since they are basically fucking off with that much taxpayer money while not holding up their end of the deal.

They were given 13.7 billion as a loan and the government got shares in return.

The Harper government chose when and how to sell them. Total loss to taxpayers was around 3.5 billion for that decade of work. And even with them leaving now, the potential impact of those job losses at the peak of the financial crisis (plus the ones in the states, and the ripple effect from it), the bailout is still more appealing even if you know they'll leave after 10 years.

Bailouts are almost never just "free money". They have value, as they represent loans and assurances those companies could not get in the private sector. But the top line figure is seldom the actual cost to taxpayers.

Anyhow, we lost money but likely would have profited if the government hadn't wanted out from under (and been in principle against holding stock in a private company).

Also, for the record, Oshawa is not GM's only plant in Canada. So all the jobs they support are not going away.

[QuickTidal]

Nevyn, on 27 November 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 27 November 2018 - 05:39 PM, said:

So, considering the fact that GM was bailed out to the tune of like 13.7 BILLION in 2009...I find the shuttering of the Oshawa plant to be really troubling. You don't get a massive bailout (largest in Canadian history) and then shut those doors 9-10 years later during a global restructuring (and a 2.5billion$ profit report for the company). I feel like the government should be asking GM for a significant portion of that money back since they are basically fucking off with that much taxpayer money while not holding up their end of the deal.

They were given 13.7 billion as a loan and the government got shares in return.

The Harper government chose when and how to sell them. Total loss to taxpayers was around 3.5 billion for that decade of work. And even with them leaving now, the potential impact of those job losses at the peak of the financial crisis (plus the ones in the states, and the ripple effect from it), the bailout is still more appealing even if you know they'll leave after 10 years.

Bailouts are almost never just "free money". They have value, as they represent loans and assurances those companies could not get in the private sector. But the top line figure is seldom the actual cost to taxpayers.

Anyhow, we lost money but likely would have profited if the government hadn't wanted out from under (and been in principle against holding stock in a private company).

Also, for the record, Oshawa is not GM's only plant in Canada. So all the jobs they support are not going away.

Condescension level: Master.

Sidebar: just because I express a broad thought or feeling doesn’t mean I’m a moron, ok?

[LinearPhilosopher]

Meanwhile, while the stink about the Saudi arms deal was up and about, Good ol trudeau forgave the entire loan to chrysler as well as interest.

Tories crying foul of the liberals allowing this to happen isn't as hypocritical as one would believe.

Though the top post didn't really address the issue that GM for the most part got a tax payer funded free lunch, and are shutting down plants. The ones are the top are privy to the majority of the profits that were created on the backs of the assembly line workers and the taxpayer. It's appalling really.

At the same time, GMs down to about 2,500 employees, a far cry from what the plant used to be, and its not like everyone is being laid off instantly so itll mollify the shock to oshawas already poor economy.

We're going to be having a lot of people claiming EI, and who knows how and where theyll find work.

[Anomander]

While I know uprooting a family and moving to a new town isn't exactly viable for a lot of people (especially those who just lost their job), it astounds me that the government won't offer incentives to those willing to move within province to take advantage of existing manufacturing jobs. I'm specifically referring to Perth County and towns like Stratford. When I lived there the amount of manufacturing work related to automotive was astonishing (this was 2 years ago). The local companies are largely parts suppliers or test facilities for companies like Toyota; for reference I worked at FIO which was one of the main Toyota test facility in North America, the chances of this place closing any time soon are slim to none. The need for skilled workers was very real and the temp agencies locally were making a killing staffing positions. It reminded me a lot of stories I heard about Alberta's heyday where you could quit a company in the morning and have another equally good (if not better) job by lunch. Every position started a couple dollars above minimum wage for zero experience and employers were quite accommodating if you showed any aptitude for the position.

The government (whether provincial or federal) is going to end up spending millions to offset these layoffs through re-training and the like. Unfortunately there are a significant number of manufacturing workers who won't be able to adapt to a new field and/or are above an age where employers are willing to hire them. Offer these folks the chance to move to greener pastures and I could see a lot of people jumping at the chance. I know this broad idea doesn't include factors such as selling your existing house, community connections, etc. but there is a need for these workers in nearby communities and this seems like a great opportunity to address 2 issues at once.

[Nevyn]

Anomander, on 28 November 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

While I know uprooting a family and moving to a new town isn't exactly viable for a lot of people (especially those who just lost their job), it astounds me that the government won't offer incentives to those willing to move within province to take advantage of existing manufacturing jobs. I'm specifically referring to Perth County and towns like Stratford. When I lived there the amount of manufacturing work related to automotive was astonishing (this was 2 years ago). The local companies are largely parts suppliers or test facilities for companies like Toyota; for reference I worked at FIO which was one of the main Toyota test facility in North America, the chances of this place closing any time soon are slim to none. The need for skilled workers was very real and the temp agencies locally were making a killing staffing positions. It reminded me a lot of stories I heard about Alberta's heyday where you could quit a company in the morning and have another equally good (if not better) job by lunch. Every position started a couple dollars above minimum wage for zero experience and employers were quite accommodating if you showed any aptitude for the position.

The government (whether provincial or federal) is going to end up spending millions to offset these layoffs through re-training and the like. Unfortunately there are a significant number of manufacturing workers who won't be able to adapt to a new field and/or are above an age where employers are willing to hire them. Offer these folks the chance to move to greener pastures and I could see a lot of people jumping at the chance. I know this broad idea doesn't include factors such as selling your existing house, community connections, etc. but there is a need for these workers in nearby communities and this seems like a great opportunity to address 2 issues at once.

If the jobs are that available whats to stop the workers from looking into it themselves?

If a higher level of government does that, it can cause issues with municipal government because instead of trying to fix one city's economy you are incentivizing abandoning its tax base. You may help the people that lost a job, but you are also solidifying and magnifying the damage to their city. And there are other jobs in that city,

I apologize in advance if you find it condescending that I disagreed with you and explained why,

[QuickTidal]

Nevyn, on 28 November 2018 - 07:29 PM, said:

I apologize in advance if you find it condescending that I disagreed with you and explained why,

It's fine, it's not the first time you've done that, nor do I expect it's the last.

It IS funny that when I posted my comments I KNEW you'd be in here to "set me straight" with how much you KnowTM.

Things like:

Quote

Also, for the record, Oshawa is not GM's only plant in Canada. So all the jobs they support are not going away.

Imply that I'm not smart enough to know this information on the topic I'm speaking on. I do know it, it just so happens to be irrelevant to the JOBS IN OSHAWA. Which is what I was talking about.

It might not go amiss to try a little introspection about how you choose to post here in response to other people. Just a thought.

[Abyss]

MODGOD NOTICE OF OK POINTS MADE ALL AROUND
NOW CEASE ARGUMENT ABOUT WHETHER/WHAT
YOU WERE ARGUING ABOUT AND RESUME ON POINT
DISCUSSION.

[Nevyn]

QuickTidal, on 28 November 2018 - 07:39 PM, said:

Quote

Also, for the record, Oshawa is not GM's only plant in Canada. So all the jobs they support are not going away.

Imply that I'm not smart enough to know this information on the topic I'm speaking on. I do know it, it just so happens to be irrelevant to the JOBS IN OSHAWA. Which is what I was talking about.

It might not go amiss to try a little introspection about how you choose to post here in response to other people. Just a thought.

It IS relevant to the point you were making about the size of the bailout relative to what we got for it. The bailout didn't only protect Oshawa jobs, and some of the jobs it did protect will go on. Whether you knew it or not, it is relevant. If we are arguing about a baseball player and you say he hit a gorgeous 500 foot homer last night so is a star, and I reply that he also struck out swinging on pitches way out of the strike zone 4 times, I am neither assuming nor implying that you did not know he struck out 4 times. I am raising that information because it is relevant to your conclusion. And in this thread, we aren't the only people reading, and even if you know the information it doesn't mean that others don't.

As is the true cost to taxpayers of the bailout.

Now, you might not care about those things. They may not make you less angry at GM. But they are relevant to your point, and none are an attack on you. And none require me to assume you either know or don't know something.

What I don't get is how you can be such a happy warrior in any nerd topic at all but so fragile in any social or political discussion. It wasn't an attack on you. In fact, it never is.


edit: notice to modgod, was typing this before notice was seen

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 28 November 2018 - 08:25 PM

[Anomander]

Nevyn, on 28 November 2018 - 07:29 PM, said:

If the jobs are that available whats to stop the workers from looking into it themselves?

If a higher level of government does that, it can cause issues with municipal government because instead of trying to fix one city's economy you are incentivizing abandoning its tax base. You may help the people that lost a job, but you are also solidifying and magnifying the damage to their city. And there are other jobs in that city,

I don't agree with your point about the municipal government. The mayor of Oshawa, John Henry, is on record saying he "hoped news of the closure was just a rumour" and that he had not personally spoken to GM at all about the issue. If left to the locals only I don't see much good happening if the mayor of the city is relying on hopes and prayers. This plant was bailed out by the federal government previously and because the issue surrounds a multi-national company it makes complete sense for the feds (and the provincial government) to help these workers find their feet.

As a resident of the Maritimes I also disagree with the whole "giving incentive to abandon the tax base" notion. We're talking a few thousand people being affected and this "loss" is going to seriously impede a city the size of Oshawa? In Halifax it's common to be wooed away where skills are needed and it's not uncommon for a government entity to be doing the wooing. Also saying "there are other jobs in that city" is a gross simplification; manufacturing (especially automotive) pays decently well and most of the skill set these workers have is not easily transferable to another company.

Regarding these individuals looking into the job themselves: most of these automotive companies in Perth County only advertise through temp agencies as traditional job ads were not netting near enough people. The agencies recruit from everywhere (including abroad) and because of their placement rate these companies stopped posting every vacancy instead focusing on ads for managerial roles, etc. I also speak from personal experience with my current company; we have been desperate to hire employees for the last year (at one point we were short 18 people) and we have genuinely stopped posting ads after getting no replies month after month. We now use a union staffing agency at great cost. So highlighting these available jobs and helping people transition into them seems like a good use of time for a few government employees in my opinion.

[Nevyn]

Anomander, on 28 November 2018 - 08:25 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 28 November 2018 - 07:29 PM, said:

If the jobs are that available whats to stop the workers from looking into it themselves?

If a higher level of government does that, it can cause issues with municipal government because instead of trying to fix one city's economy you are incentivizing abandoning its tax base. You may help the people that lost a job, but you are also solidifying and magnifying the damage to their city. And there are other jobs in that city,

I don't agree with your point about the municipal government. The mayor of Oshawa, John Henry, is on record saying he "hoped news of the closure was just a rumour" and that he had not personally spoken to GM at all about the issue. If left to the locals only I don't see much good happening if the mayor of the city is relying on hopes and prayers. This plant was bailed out by the federal government previously and because the issue surrounds a multi-national company it makes complete sense for the feds (and the provincial government) to help these workers find their feet.

As a resident of the Maritimes I also disagree with the whole "giving incentive to abandon the tax base" notion. We're talking a few thousand people being affected and this "loss" is going to seriously impede a city the size of Oshawa? In Halifax it's common to be wooed away where skills are needed and it's not uncommon for a government entity to be doing the wooing. Also saying "there are other jobs in that city" is a gross simplification; manufacturing (especially automotive) pays decently well and most of the skill set these workers have is not easily transferable to another company.

Regarding these individuals looking into the job themselves: most of these automotive companies in Perth County only advertise through temp agencies as traditional job ads were not netting near enough people. The agencies recruit from everywhere (including abroad) and because of their placement rate these companies stopped posting every vacancy instead focusing on ads for managerial roles, etc. I also speak from personal experience with my current company; we have been desperate to hire employees for the last year (at one point we were short 18 people) and we have genuinely stopped posting ads after getting no replies month after month. We now use a union staffing agency at great cost. So highlighting these available jobs and helping people transition into them seems like a good use of time for a few government employees in my opinion.

When I said "there are other jobs in the city" I did not mean they can all find work easily. I mean if they all up and left on a government sponsored relocation, that affects local business. The tax base goes down, stores and restaurants close, etc. There is a ripple effect. More jobs are lost. That was what I was saying, there are other jobs that could be lost.

Now, those jobs could be lost anyway, but it explains why finding a replacement employer in the same market is a more politically appealing solution than relocating.


A few thousand people impeding a city the size of Oshawa? Oshawa has around 160k people total. Assuming we don't look at any supporting industry job losses, 2500 working age people moving out with their families would be a dramatic impact.

And if I were a manufacturer in Stratford with massive staffing costs and worker shortages, and I heard that 2500 skilled labourers were going to be on the market a couple hours drive away, I might well do some targetted recruitment.

My point was only that if you step in the day after the announcement as a provincial (or federal) government and say you'll fix the issue by moving people to where there are jobs, the residents of that community who are not those workers might just feel that you had abandoned them.

[rant]

Nevyn, on 28 November 2018 - 08:39 PM, said:

My point was only that if you step in the day after the announcement as a provincial (or federal) government and say you'll fix the issue by moving people to where there are jobs, the residents of that community who are not those workers might just feel that you had abandoned them.

New Brunswick
As a whole.

[rant]

rant, on 29 November 2018 - 02:17 AM, said:

Nevyn, on 28 November 2018 - 08:39 PM, said:

My point was only that if you step in the day after the announcement as a provincial (or federal) government and say you'll fix the issue by moving people to where there are jobs, the residents of that community who are not those workers might just feel that you had abandoned them.

New Brunswick
As a whole.

I honestly feel guilty advocating for my province of 750k. But we are a broken province--and truth is no degree of austerity will fix it (but by god do we want to fix it). So I guess the question to this group is how do we fix it?

[LinearPhilosopher]

Nevyn, on 28 November 2018 - 07:29 PM, said:

Anomander, on 28 November 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

While I know uprooting a family and moving to a new town isn't exactly viable for a lot of people (especially those who just lost their job), it astounds me that the government won't offer incentives to those willing to move within province to take advantage of existing manufacturing jobs. I'm specifically referring to Perth County and towns like Stratford. When I lived there the amount of manufacturing work related to automotive was astonishing (this was 2 years ago). The local companies are largely parts suppliers or test facilities for companies like Toyota; for reference I worked at FIO which was one of the main Toyota test facility in North America, the chances of this place closing any time soon are slim to none. The need for skilled workers was very real and the temp agencies locally were making a killing staffing positions. It reminded me a lot of stories I heard about Alberta's heyday where you could quit a company in the morning and have another equally good (if not better) job by lunch. Every position started a couple dollars above minimum wage for zero experience and employers were quite accommodating if you showed any aptitude for the position.

The government (whether provincial or federal) is going to end up spending millions to offset these layoffs through re-training and the like. Unfortunately there are a significant number of manufacturing workers who won't be able to adapt to a new field and/or are above an age where employers are willing to hire them. Offer these folks the chance to move to greener pastures and I could see a lot of people jumping at the chance. I know this broad idea doesn't include factors such as selling your existing house, community connections, etc. but there is a need for these workers in nearby communities and this seems like a great opportunity to address 2 issues at once.

If the jobs are that available whats to stop the workers from looking into it themselves?

If a higher level of government does that, it can cause issues with municipal government because instead of trying to fix one city's economy you are incentivizing abandoning its tax base. You may help the people that lost a job, but you are also solidifying and magnifying the damage to their city. And there are other jobs in that city,

I apologize in advance if you find it condescending that I disagreed with you and explained why,

People in general do not want to relocate, for a vairety reasons (established social networks such as presence of family and friends, Owning a house you now can't sell for much, to name a few). Additionally these are small cities/towns most of the time. I can't speak for all, but i personally had deep reservations about every interview i went to for small towns. For an individual like myself the GTA is a happier place. (found a job in sauga so i just need to put up with the long commute)

rant, on 29 November 2018 - 02:22 AM, said:

rant, on 29 November 2018 - 02:17 AM, said:

Nevyn, on 28 November 2018 - 08:39 PM, said:

My point was only that if you step in the day after the announcement as a provincial (or federal) government and say you'll fix the issue by moving people to where there are jobs, the residents of that community who are not those workers might just feel that you had abandoned them.

New Brunswick
As a whole.

I honestly feel guilty advocating for my province of 750k. But we are a broken province--and truth is no degree of austerity will fix it (but by god do we want to fix it). So I guess the question to this group is how do we fix it?

assuming it can be fixed. Not saying this to be mean, but aside from a small tourist industry, NB doesn't have much to offer given fishing is becoming more and more costly while being less profitable. Due to low population it doesn't have thriving service industries such as Toronto being the financial capital, or even other cities like calgary and montreal being hubs for IT dev.

Saving NB would require investing into the province in a way it can create sustainable wealth.

This post has been edited by LinearPhilosopher: 29 November 2018 - 02:56 AM

[QuickTidal]

LinearPhilosopher, on 29 November 2018 - 02:50 AM, said:

People in general do not want to relocate, for a vairety reasons (established social networks such as presence of family and friends, Owning a house you now can't sell for much, to name a few). Additionally these are small cities/towns most of the time. I can't speak for all, but i personally had deep reservations about every interview i went to for small towns. For an individual like myself the GTA is a happier place. (found a job in sauga so i just need to put up with the long commute)

^^This.

What Nevyn said seems to be the through line of someone without family (spouse AND/OR kids) or deep responsibilities like a home or the like. It's real easy to say it when you're a single person with nothing in particular to tie you down....I'll wager a large if not overwhelming percentage of the people at the Oshawa plant DO have things to tie them down. Hell, just finding Daycare in another place is a nightmare, never mind a spouses job. I'm tied to where I am because of my wife's job, the nature of my job, the daycare my kid is in (which her brother will also likely go to) because wait lists elsewhere are insane, home prices not being anywhere reasonable, transportation, and a terminally ill mother in law ect.

Government incentivizing such a thing at least alleviates the strain of those aspects for some.

Expecting those individuals to just uproot all that shit to go to another town on their own smacks of "I'm single and have no ties to anything so everyone can be like me".

Those Oshawa plant employees are going to have to hope that Unifor can find them other work and the commute won't be too bad, or they are going to have WAY more problems than simply losing their jobs in the future.

[D'rek]

So what did we do in the olden days when a mine dried up and everyone in the mining town was out of work?

[Mentalist]

D, on 29 November 2018 - 08:39 PM, said:

So what did we do in the olden days when a mine dried up and everyone in the mining town was out of work?

Lots of those towns became ghost towns as all able-bodied workers left to look for work elsewhere.

[D'rek]

Were there any social programs / government involvement / etc, then? And if so did it work/not work and therefore what can we learn from it?

[LinearPhilosopher]

https://www.cbc.ca/n...tence-1.4978443

So this has started to escalate in a rather nasty matter. First the americans compel us to arrest a Hua Wei executive, now we're having our own citizens sentenced to death. Gotta love being a proxy for someone else's trade war.

Frosty McFrostface, on 29 November 2018 - 08:53 PM, said:

Were there any social programs / government involvement / etc, then? And if so did it work/not work and therefore what can we learn from it?

There would have been some social assistance, but back then it was an accepted part of life. If work dried up in your town you moved elsewhere to find work. At least in those days one COULD find work without having a specialised skill set and/OR a high level of education.

This post has been edited by LinearPhilosopher: 15 January 2019 - 10:31 PM

[Malankazooie]

I think Can't-A-Duh makes more since to me now. J/K!

Justin Trudeau's unlikely doppelganger on Afghan talent show sends Twitter into overdrive

[rant]

I enjoyed this write-up of the SNC-Lavelin shit:

https://www.macleans...anada-the-show/